HVAC System 20 Years Old, Time to Proactively Replace??

[pmsmechanic]

hard to believe that furance is 30 yrs old and doesn't have a cracked heat exchanger. That metal has expanded and contracted alot over 30 yrs.

Trane with tube heat exchangers were bad about splitting at the tube seams. I hated the old rust bucket carrier / bryant furnaces too

As near as I can figure out our house was built in the early 60's. As far as I know we still have the original furnace. It's safe to say that it's probably pretty close to 50 years old.

The first few years the house was only a basement in the ground. A few years later the house was built on the footing. I'm assuming the furnace was added then.

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

Wow such great knowledge on TBN thanks so much. I have decided to not replace the unit and see how it goes. I will get the unit serviced annually, heck for $80 it is good sleep insurance. Let's hope I did not give the furnace any ideas with this thread to stop working....LOL.

 

[kenmac]

Wow such great knowledge on TBN thanks so much. I have decided to not replace the unit and see how it goes. I will get the unit serviced annually, heck for $80 it is good sleep insurance. Let's hope I did not give the furnace any ideas with this thread to stop working....LOL.

be careful. some of these HVAC companies will offer a FREE furnace with the purchase of an a/c or hp. Sadly, you wouldn't believe how many people fall for this FREE furnace... :laughing:

Nothing is FREE.Someone is paying, and with this scam, it's the customer:laughing:

 

[kenmac]

I agree. For the past 6-7 years we've been heating with wood for 80% of our needs, so it doesn't get quite the workout it used to I'm sure. The thing now mostly gets used for the air conditioning, which is also older than 21 years (as long as we've been in the house). We have them check the air conditioning system and the heat exchanger every couple years. And we have good working carbon dioxide sensors in the house as well. I'm on my third water heater, though! First one started leaking about 5-6 years after we bought the house. 2nd one thermocouple went bad after about 5 years. When I went to remove it, I had a hard time getting the two bolts out that hold the whole burner assembly in. After stripping them out, came to find out they were left hand thread. What's that about? Turns out the store chain that was selling them was selling mobile home water heaters for residential use and there was a legal settlement that if you reported it, they'd have to send you a new burner assembly for residential house use free of charge with adapters to make it right hand thread. Well, that was great, I got my new burner assembly for free, but the mounting holes in the water heater themselves are what strips out, not the screws. So I had to use larger self tappers to mount it. Worked out well for about 5 more years, and when the thermocouple went out again, I replaced the entire unit. Been about 3 years now. So far, so good.

Moss, the only water heaters I'm aware of with left hand threads were the new ''flame guard'' style water heaters. The thermocouple was left hand threads to prevent someone from converting the wh back to the old style.

Most of (if not all) the mobile home water heaters were/are designed with sealed burners and take all air for combustion outside of the mh. and have a few other differences compared to a regular home wh .
mh furnaces are made the same way . All gas appliances (except maybe a gas range) will be listed for mh use.

 

[NY_Yankees_Fan]

be careful. some of these HVAC companies will offer a FREE furnace with the purchase of an a/c or hp. Sadly, you wouldn't believe how many people fall for this FREE furnace... :laughing:

Nothing is FREE.Someone is paying, and with this scam, it's the customer:laughing:

Oh yea we got one company that advertises $3495 for furnace AND AC "high efficiency" units including install and removal any size home! How can they do that , I am sure they have a 10 page disclaimer of what is extra.......

 

[MossRoad]

Moss, the only water heaters I'm aware of with left hand threads were the new ''flame guard'' style water heaters. The thermocouple was left hand threads to prevent someone from converting the wh back to the old style.

Most of (if not all) the mobile home water heaters were/are designed with sealed burners and take all air for combustion outside of the mh. and have a few other differences compared to a regular home wh .
mh furnaces are made the same way . All gas appliances (except maybe a gas range) will be listed for mh use.

Its all coming back to me now... :laughing:

They were manufactured by American Water Heater Company for Whirlpool, and were sold exclusively at Lowe's. The thermocouples had left hand threads, which was supposed to only be used with Propane (hence my recall of mobile homes. Plenty of non-mobile homes use propane). However, they sold them for use with natural gas. Anyhow, after it failed the second time with the new and improved thermocouple, its laying in my back yard waiting to be used for target practice.

Consumers Steamed About Whirlpool Water Heater Problems

Whirlpool Settles Water Heater Class Action

 

[kenmac]

Yes, I believe all the flame lock, flame guard, etc,.style water heaters has /had left hand thread thermocouples. These new thermocouples had a smaller connection (nut size) than the older thermocouples

All manufactures changed from regular style water heaters due to lawsuits. Idiots would pour gasoline in the area of their water heater . Gasoline fumes being heavier than air would travel along the floor until it reached the water heater pilot and then BOOM !

All manufactures had problems with these new style water heaters for a while with constant pilot outages.
The water heater manufactures came out with replacement burner kits with an adapter that changed the thermocouples back to standard threads. I believe the adapters also came with wires that went to a switch on the burner cover. Not sure if all replacement kits came this way or not, but some did.
I have ordered many of those replacement kits. They would over night the parts and pay me to install them.
I think all the problems all manufactures had are now resolved.

My MIL has an old style propane water heater (non flame guard, flame lock ,etc,.) and it has the standard thread thermocouple.

 

[Gator6x4]

Wow such great knowledge on TBN thanks so much. I have decided to not replace the unit and see how it goes. I will get the unit serviced annually, heck for $80 it is good sleep insurance. Let's hope I did not give the furnace any ideas with this thread to stop working....LOL.

My opinion for what it's worth is you made a wise decision. An annual check by a certified and qualified technician should provide you wth several years of trouble free service. When I built my current home in 1993 I installed a Thermo Pride oil fired furnace. The furnace has a "Limited Life Time Warranty" on the fire chamber.

Warranty Information:

Since 1955, Thermo Products, LLC has stood behind their products with one of the industry’s best warranties. You depend on reliable operation when needed most – in the coldest or hottest weather. And if a breakdown ever occurs, you don’t want costly bills that add to your expenses. Product warranties show that a manufacturer has your long-term satisfaction at heart. Plus it shows their confidence in providing a quality product.

Our products are backed with outstanding warranties. The proven longevity of Thermo Pride’s heat exchanger, combined with the Limited Lifetime Warranty, virtually eliminates the worry of ever having to replace your furnace. The heat exchanger carries a Limited Lifetime Warranty which states that if the heat exchanger becomes defective, Thermo Products. will provide at its option either a replacement heat exchanger or the necessary repair parts on a no charge basis. Should you sell your home, the furnace heat exchanger warranty will automatically transfer to the new owners. Thermo Pride furnaces also come with a 10-year parts warranty*. See warranty specifics for details below

* Thermo Pride’s 10-year parts warranty is effective on units sold on or after
September 1, 2008.

Thermo Pride quality air conditioning products take your comfort to another level. The TC4 and TC7 series of air conditioning condensers include a 5-year Peace of Mind Plus Limited Warranty. If the compressor fails within the first 5 years of the date of installation, we will replace the entire condenser. After the fifth year, the condenser continues to be covered by our 10-year Compressor and Parts Warranty. Together these make up Thermo Pride's unique Peace of Mind Plus Warranty. The owner must register the product within 90 days of installation to activate warranty coverage. Otherwise, the warranty reverts to 5 years on parts and coil and standard 10-year compressor warranty. Register online at Thermo Pride | Built Tough For Lifetime Comfort. See warranty for details.

 

[Labrat]

"Interesting with new systems you can not turn the thermostat below 60, I normally set it for 55 when we are away Feb-March. Any idea why they set the limit so high?"

They can build condensation in the primary heat exchanger due to the lower temps and short cycle times causing it to rust out which is not covered under warranty. I believe one of the Carrier units recommends 65 as the lowest set point.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yes, I believe all the flame lock, flame guard, etc,.style water heaters has /had left hand thread thermocouples. These new thermocouples had a smaller connection (nut size) than the older thermocouples

All manufactures changed from regular style water heaters due to lawsuits. Idiots would pour gasoline in the area of their water heater . Gasoline fumes being heavier than air would travel along the floor until it reached the water heater pilot and then BOOM !

All manufactures had problems with these new style water heaters for a while with constant pilot outages.
The water heater manufactures came out with replacement burner kits with an adapter that changed the thermocouples back to standard threads. I believe the adapters also came with wires that went to a switch on the burner cover. Not sure if all replacement kits came this way or not, but some did.
I have ordered many of those replacement kits. They would over night the parts and pay me to install them.
I think all the problems all manufactures had are now resolved.

My MIL has an old style propane water heater (non flame guard, flame lock ,etc,.) and it has the standard thread thermocouple.

I had nothing but failures when the new units came out... lots of unhappy tenants and many service calls... no hot water in the morning is one sure fire way to get people angry... especially when it happens over and over again.

It got so bad the manufacturer refunded my money... I was going to file with every agency State and Local as well as go to the media... to get my refund I had to use tin snips and cut out the Product decal for each heater and send them to the manufacturer.

The Warranty Service company stopped servicing them because the way they were compensated a call back on a previous warranty call was paid almost nothing.

I switched Brands to Bradford White and not a single issue going forward...

Have no idea if the other heater company ever got the product corrected or not and have no interest in finding out.

On a separate note... I still have manual 1920's floor furnaces that work today as well as they did 90 years ago... they have standing pilots and a "Key" to turn on the burner... turn key on you get flame... turn off and the flame goes out...

 

[Deere Dude]

We snowbirded for 8 years from central Wisconsin. We had a new house and had one small room with the water softener, pressure tank and water inlet to the house in there. It had shelves for paint and canned goods. We insulated that room and put a couple small milk-house heaters in it on separate circuits and put the 2 sump pumps on separate circuits.

When we left in November we drained all the water, blew air through the lines and sent a shot of RV antifreeze through all the pipes. Then we shut the furnace off and didn't worry about it until March of April.

We did have someone come by every couple weeks just to make it look like it was lived in. We did that for 8 years with no ill effect.

 

[kenmac]

I had nothing but failures when the new units came out... lots of unhappy tenants and many service calls... no hot water in the morning is one sure fire way to get people angry... especially when it happens over and over again.

It got so bad the manufacturer refunded my money... I was going to file with every agency State and Local as well as go to the media... to get my refund I had to use tin snips and cut out the Product decal for each heater and send them to the manufacturer.

The Warranty Service company stopped servicing them because the way they were compensated a call back on a previous warranty call was paid almost nothing.

I switched Brands to Bradford White and not a single issue going forward...

Have no idea if the other heater company ever got the product corrected or not and have no interest in finding out.

On a separate note... I still have manual 1920's floor furnaces that work today as well as they did 90 years ago... they have standing pilots and a "Key" to turn on the burner... turn key on you get flame... turn off and the flame goes out...

Yeah, whirlpool tired that pay nothing for warranty repairs with me too. I told them to find someone else in the area. they called me back a week later and paid my going rate LOL



I cut my teeth on millivolt systems. They manufacture their electricity to operate. Most about 750 millivolts. You get a little corrosion on any of the wire connections, and it would kill your M.V, and no heat !
The later ones (floor furnaces) that came out had all types of safety devices (limit switches). These limit switches would get hot and kill power to the unit and shut it down before it ever got warm in the home lol.
The thermostat would be set at 70, but the temp in the home would only be 60, except at those limit switches....
People would always want me to take those switches out of circuit. I couldn't do it for liability reasons. I never bypassed a safety device

 

[ultrarunner]

Yeah, whirlpool tired that pay nothing for warranty repairs with me too. I told them to find someone else in the area. they called me back a week later and paid my going rate LOL



I cut my teeth on millivolt systems. They manufacture their electricity to operate. Most about 750 millivolts. You get a little corrosion on any of the wire connections, and it would kill your M.V, and no heat !
The later ones (floor furnaces) that came out had all types of safety devices (limit switches). These limit switches would get hot and kill power to the unit and shut it down before it ever got warm in the home lol.
The thermostat would be set at 70, but the temp in the home would only be 60, except at those limit switches....
People would always want me to take those switches out of circuit. I couldn't do it for liability reasons. I never bypassed a safety device

Most of what I have predates all the new stuff... my oldest central furnace dates from 1922... a big basement millivolt gavity monster that just keeps working providing silent warmth throughout the home.

My biggest problem with millivolt happens when someone replaces the Mercury Thermostat...

During the big earthquake years back power was out of almost a week... my millivolt furnaces and pilot light stoves/water heaters never missed a beat...

One of my friends decided to be proactive in 2003 and replaced all his 12 year old kitchen appliances... gave the old ones to me for hauling them away.... and I put them in a rental and so far no problems... he has not been so lucky... problems with the new cooktop, stove and dishwasher

 

[kenmac]

Most of what I have predates all the new stuff... my oldest central furnace dates from 1922... a big basement millivolt gavity monster that just keeps working providing silent warmth throughout the home.

My biggest problem with millivolt happens when someone replaces the Mercury Thermostat..

I have worked on some of those old spider (as we called them) monster gravity furnaces that were converted from old coal fired to nat gas. Most of those are all gone now days.

Millivolt furnaces use a millivolt T.stat. not a regular T. stat

 

[mcfarmall]

To the OP: Maintain it properly and run to fail. The old saying holds true, "They don't make them like they used to." Your new 10k furnace and A/C will probably only last 10 years. The new heat exchangers are made paper thin so they heat up quickly and "save fuel" but they also burn through quicker and don't last through all the thermal cycling.

 

[pmsmechanic]

Millivolt furnaces use a millivolt T.stat. not a regular T. stat

But they do work with a regular thermostat. Ask me how I know.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have worked on some of those old spider (as we called them) monster gravity furnaces that were converted from old coal fired to nat gas. Most of those are all gone now days.

Millivolt furnaces use a millivolt T.stat. not a regular T. stat

Yep... never a problem with mercury stats...

Tons of problems with snap action stats on millivolt... a simple temporary fix is to burnish the points with a business card... 99% of the time that would allow sufficient current to flow and all is good...

Not uncommon here in the SF Bay Area for a furnace to sit idle for 9 months of the year and then the first cold snap and nothing works...

The central furnace in question is almost identical to the coal fired model it is just here natural gas has been a staple for a very long time... the only difference in the model is a "G" added.

Have to say it is still my favorite... silent unobtrusive heat with little dust.... and it simply "Just" works...

I guess I'm firmly in the camp of keep using it until you can't

 

[RobS]

I wouldn't replace it but certainly would be setting money aside for the day.

We lucked out last fall. Furnace died, heat exchanger corroded through. Thankfully, it had a lifetime warranty but they no longer made that model. York (kudos to them) gave us a whole new furnace but we had to pay the install. Still a lot of money but could have been far worse.

Furnace was "only" 16 years old. Seems the newer stuff just doesn't last all that long...

 

[kenmac]

But they do work with a regular thermostat. Ask me how I know.

they will work but they use up more millivolts. it doesn't take much resistance and you'll use up all millivolts. The old round honeywell mercury millivolt T.stats didn't have a heat anticipator to eat up your millivolts.
I haven't worked on a MV system in a long time. I had to repair gas logs last week for a friend that operated on MV, and a light switch

 

[3930dave]

To the OP: Maintain it properly and run to fail. The old saying holds true, "They don't make them like they used to." Your new 10k furnace and A/C will probably only last 10 years. The new heat exchangers are made paper thin so they heat up quickly and "save fuel" but they also burn through quicker and don't last through all the thermal cycling.

"Efficiency" gains.... gotta love 'em. Most of the efficiency gains have been in emptying our bank-accounts with capital-equipment expenditures. Equipment costs aside (oligopolies anyone ?), skilled labour costs/truck rolls keep going up every year.

Same on the AC side..... coil wall thickness is down, pressures are way up, as is compressor rpms. Kaaaccchhhing ! :greedy: if you are an HVAC contractor....

Rgds, D.