How many hours is too many hours?

[Elkins45]

Please excuse me because I'm a complete noob when it comes to tractors. I'm going this afternoon to look at an International 444 that has 4200 hours on it. I did a little calculating trying to relate that to car miles and figured that an average of 60MPH that would be the auto equivalent of a car with 250,000 miles on it. That sounds pretty worn out to me, but what do I know?

At what point is a tractor considered 'worn out'?

 

[bp fick]

Your comparison seems fairly accurate, but as with cars, there are those with a quarter million miles you might take a chance on buying, and others you wouldn't touch. Same thing here. Would you buy a late 60's - early 70's car to be your everyday driver?

The question to ask yourself is how much money would you really give for such a machine? Would you rather put that money, and the money it is going to take in repairs, toward something newer? Are you getting for it free? What about the time and skill it is going to take keeping such a machine useful to you?

Do you have the money, time and knowledge, shop and tools necessary? Do you have access to the parts?

All these are questions you will have to sort through in the decision making process.

 

[Verticaltrx]

To me what matters most is how they were taken care of, more so than the hours. Also, one of the worst things for any type of equipment is for it to sit around unused. This causes seals to dry up and crack, corrosion on internal components, fuel systems fouling up, hoses, belts and tires to dry rot, etc (this also partially has to do with age.) I personally would rather take a higher hour tractor that gets used often but is well taken care of than a 20yr old tractor with 500hrs on it.

We have an IH 454 diesel that has 7000+hrs on it. We got it with around 3000hrs in the early '80s and it had been run into the ground by it's previous owner. Installed a new set of brakes and clutch and it has been doing well ever since.

We also have a 2550 Deere that is about 25yrs old but only has about 2500hrs on it. I would consider it a pretty low hour tractor, but we have had to replace a few seals, hoses, etc due to it's age, not due to the number of hours.

At the top end of the scale, my uncle has a couple Allis-Chalmers with between 20,000-30,000hrs on them, a D-17 series IV and a 170, both gas powered. Ofcourse they have had a few overhauls throughout the years, new brakes, clutches, etc, but if you are willing to maintain a tractor it will last virtually forever.

 

[TripleR]

You didn't state if it is a gas or diesel which will make a difference. I am not sure you can make a direct comparison to cars. Several people on here have perfectly reliable Ford Jubilees well over 50 years old. I have one as well as a 55 model 600. Our Case was made in the mid 60's and runs like a top. A better comparison might be a truck.

A consideration not mentioned is how much you will use it. Some on here put less than a hundred hours on a tractor in which case an older tractor will last a long time.

If you are not familiar with what to look for, take a friend or have a mechanic check it out if possible.

 

[jlsmith]

My CaseIH 5088 has almost 7500 hrs on it and i wouldnt trade it for anything. Like others have said it depends on how it was taken care of. Mine gets regular maintance every year and is still running strong.

 

[Chilly807]

IMO it depends on how handy you are mechanically and how long you plan to have the tractor. Parts availability may be a factor, if not now then 10 years from now.

My high number when shopping was 1500 hours, and I plan to use mine for the next 25 years, average of maybe 100 hours a year or less.

If you knew the owner and what kind of hours those were, it's easier to make an informed decision. If it's been idling for 3000 hours, not so good a deal. Running a water pump or pulling a rotary cutter over smooth ground 8 hours a day is a different story again. Either way, the engine has been over the hill and seen the elephant, so to speak.

Personally, I'd pass, but that's just me.

Sean

 

[rswyan]

Please excuse me because I'm a complete noob when it comes to tractors. I'm going this afternoon to look at an International 444 that has 4200 hours on it. I did a little calculating trying to relate that to car miles and figured that an average of 60MPH that would be the auto equivalent of a car with 250,000 miles on it. That sounds pretty worn out to me, but what do I know?

I had a IH 444 (gas) that was Dad's ... unfortunately the tractor sat outside for many years and got rusted up pretty bad ... but it was maintained as far as fluids and so forth.

At one point I thought about restoring it and pulled the oil pan off to repaint it. Had a look up into engine - the entire thing was painted inside, except for the bores, which looked perfect - you could still see the cross-hatching from the factory on the cylinder walls .... it had around 4000 hours on it at the time, IIRC.

Many of those hours were pretty hard - I drove it as kid

Good piece of equipment .... wish I had had enough sense to take better care of it when I was younger .... I'd probably still have it.

 

[Grrrr]

The old 'Nashers will probably do 10,000 hours with little more than an oil change every thousand hours or so.

They were designed to work, on a farm.

It will already be at least 35 years old - and will probably do another 50 years yet.

There is so little to go wrong on these old heavy irons - no electrics, no HSTs, few hydraulics. Maybe it will need a starter motor when it gets to 8 thousand hours, maybe a water pump over haul. But 4000 hours is just nicely run in. If you pop the gearbox cover off - I bet the paint will still be good as new in there.


To put it in perspective - my neighbour is a chicken shed cleaning contractor. He runs a fleet of about 15 MF 135s, which are of similar age and design to the 444.

Some of them are well north of 40,000 hours. Most common wearing item is front tires because of constant turning on concrete surfaces. Fronts need replacing about every 3 months. Between his entire fleet including spares - hes getting on to half a million hours.


Modern compact tractors however, tend to be pretty finished by the time they get to 3000 hours or so. But that will take 30 years at 100 hours a year.

But modern farm tractors from 1990s onwards - are still going today and many are now pushing 10 - 15,000 hours.

 

[D7E]

I think after a bout 7000hrs the value starts to drop but i've bought them with over 10'000 and had no more trouble with them. I think with a little tractor like the nasher hours are irrellevant as most have not had clocks working for years but theres very little to go wrong and nothing that can't be done at home .
Like my old D7 , Clock says 13'000 but has'nt worked since i've had it , Could be 30'000 for all i know but no trouble at all !

 

[JDGreenGrass]

I am new to tractors. Well, I bought my first last October. Found it on Craigslist.

The tractor had 2500 hours on it and I went back and forth with the seller, who was asking $10,500. Pictures looked great for a 1992. He finally said to me..."You've got to come look at the tractor." So, I did. I was awed by the condition. He said..."There are no issues. Everything works as it should."

I bought it for $9600 and I couldn't be happier. I have an "older" machine, John Deere no less, in excellent condition....now with 2600 hours. Minor. I have complete confidence in the tractor.

Maintenance is everything. Now, that is my challenge...to keep the tractor in the condition that it is in (fantastic) and work it on my 2 acres when needed...mostly to blow snow and lug firewood and maintain 200' of driveway. I have used the tractor for things I never thought I would and it is a perfect fit...for me.

Know what you're buying and be clear on it's intended uses.

 

[Soundguy]

at those hours I'd expect it to be wanting a clutch.. and if a gasser.. it will be showing reasonable engine wear.. but should still plow a field. if a diesel.. will likely still hold out another couple thou before it eats something major like an injector pump.

all this assumes good care and maintenance .. etc.

you can kill a brand new tractor in 1 hour.. or you can take care of an antique so that it is near mint after 5 decades.

soundguy

Please excuse me because I'm a complete noob when it comes to tractors. I'm going this afternoon to look at an International 444 that has 4200 hours on it. I did a little calculating trying to relate that to car miles and figured that an average of 60MPH that would be the auto equivalent of a car with 250,000 miles on it. That sounds pretty worn out to me, but what do I know?

At what point is a tractor considered 'worn out'?

 

[flusher]

Please excuse me because I'm a complete noob when it comes to tractors. I'm going this afternoon to look at an International 444 that has 4200 hours on it. I did a little calculating trying to relate that to car miles and figured that an average of 60MPH that would be the auto equivalent of a car with 250,000 miles on it. That sounds pretty worn out to me, but what do I know?

At what point is a tractor considered 'worn out'?

Gasser or diesel?

Being a newby, you need to know how to checkout a used tractor with a lot of hours on it. If you can, take someone with you who knows tractors.

If you see oil/fluid spots on the ground, you might think about passing on this one (bad seals, cracks in the block, etc).

If it's hard to start, you could have carburetor or injector/high pressure injector pump problems (diesel). Carburetors are less expensive to repair/replace than diesel injectors or injector pumps.

If it smokes--white smoke might mean coolant leaks, blue smoke means oil burning (valves, rings), black smoke may mean problems in the fuel/air system.

Drive it in all gears. Look for clutch problems (slipping, hard to shift into gear, jumping out of gear, won't go into one or more gears, etc). Check the two stage clutch to be sure that clutch works properly. Clutch repairs usually means splitting the tractor--can be expensive.

Check the 3 point hitch operation, preferably with a heavy impliment attached. If it has problems lifting the load or if it won't hold the load in position, then you have hydraulic system problems.

Check the tires for wear, cracks, dry rot. Rear ag tires are expensive to replace.

Also be aware that replacement parts for these old tractors may be hard to find and expensive.

Good luck.

 

[Grrrr]

at those hours I'd expect it to be wanting a clutch.. and if a gasser.. it will be showing reasonable engine wear.. but should still plow a field. if a diesel.. will likely still hold out another couple thou before it eats something major like an injector pump.

all this assumes good care and maintenance .. etc.

you can kill a brand new tractor in 1 hour.. or you can take care of an antique so that it is near mint after 5 decades.

soundguy

Yeah agree about the clutch - however it very much depends how it's been driven. Our 135 has had it's first clutch at just over 2000 hours but it's now at 6000 hours and still going well.

Nice thing about it is a complete new clutch won't cost more than a few hundred dollars and a mechanic could split the tractor, replace the clutch and put it back together in 3 hours. And it may not even need the clutch yet.

As for the engine, can't comment on the gassers, we never used them in this country, but I'd bet that diesel will still be running sweet as a nut. Plenty of those tractors still running with 8 thousand hours on them and no major rebuilds. Maybe lost a few horse power over the years but who cares

Gasser or diesel?

Being a newby, you need to know how to checkout a used tractor with a lot of hours on it. If you can, take someone with you who knows tractors.

If you see oil/fluid spots on the ground, you might think about passing on this one (bad seals, cracks in the block, etc).

If it's hard to start, you could have carburetor or injector/high pressure injector pump problems (diesel). Carburetors are less expensive to repair/replace than diesel injectors or injector pumps.

If it smokes--white smoke might mean coolant leaks, blue smoke means oil burning (valves, rings), black smoke may mean problems in the fuel/air system.

Drive it in all gears. Look for clutch problems (slipping, hard to shift into gear, jumping out of gear, won't go into one or more gears, etc). Check the two stage clutch to be sure that clutch works properly. Clutch repairs usually means splitting the tractor--can be expensive.

Check the 3 point hitch operation, preferably with a heavy impliment attached. If it has problems lifting the load or if it won't hold the load in position, then you have hydraulic system problems.

Check the tires for wear, cracks, dry rot. Rear ag tires are expensive to replace.

Also be aware that replacement parts for these old tractors may be hard to find and expensive.

Good luck.

The tractor is going to be minimum 35 years old with 4000 hours under it's belt! Of course it is going to have a few oil leaks around the engine and maybe some of the other transmission seals. Just means you may have to pour a little extra oil in every month or so. Consider it a running cost.

These old tractors didn't really get shifted. You set it in a gear and set off. I can't remember if it was a syncro gearbox off the top of my head but either way I doub't it'll be very smooth. But I bet it will be pretty bombproof. Maybe the selector forks will have a little wear, but I doub't it at only 4000 hours.

3 point hitch will almost certainly drop when you turn the engine off, as they did from new. However it should still lift as you say.

Parts - at least in this country, there were so many thousands of these things made, theres hundreds been broken and many comapnies now make pattern parts.



Finally, to put 4000 hours into persepctive.

On a farm in the 60s and 70's in this country, on average one of these tractors they would have about 800 hours a year put on them. Today we put about 1000 - 1200 hours on a tractor a year.

So really, this tractor may have only done 4 or 5 years hard work before basically being mothballed for the next 30 years.

 

[dex3361]

I had no trouble finding parts for my IH424 but I only needed a few things in the 10 or so years that I owned it.

The transmission on the IH444 is not synchronized. The will grind the gears if you are not familiar with a crash box tranny. But you would get used to it.

 

[Chilly807]

Double clutching will help with grinding, mine works better during upshift than downshifting. Not much call for downshifting on the fly with a tractor anyway.

Sean

 

[Soundguy]

good way to get into trouble.. especially if pulling a load..might not be able to get back in gear.. etc.

soundguy

 

[Ford tractor]

I'm going this afternoon to look at an International 444 that has 4200 hours on it. I did a little calculating trying to relate that to car miles and figured that an average of 60MPH that would be the auto equivalent of a car with 250,000 miles on it. That sounds pretty worn out to me, but what do I know?

At what point is a tractor considered 'worn out'?

I'm sure you "know" a lot:thumbsup:, but your comparison is not real accurate. Tractors are more closely compared to big rig's than to passenger cars. Most big rigs can go 1 million miles without needing a rebuild. Some, with good maintenance, go much more than that.

Most old small tractor 3&4 cylinder engines are heavier than small block V8's. That should tell you something about how beefy they are built. Plus, they turn much lower rpm's than a car.

Take a look at the machine and determine how well maintained. It may be good for 4000 more hours.

As far as "worn out", that really never happens. Tractors break on occasion, catch fire, get rolled or have trees fall on them --> but the OLD tractors can always be rebuilt to perform as new when they are worn. Typically doing that is not very hard or expensive as you can do it yourself. I'm very skeptical about NEW tractors that spin at 2x the rpm to get the same hp and have light duty structure. Those ARE probably accurately compared to an automobile and they may get worn out.

 

[ToadHill]

I had a Massey 85 for many years. I rebuilt the top end at a little over 10,000 hours. The engine was still running strong several years later when I sold it. Just kept the fluids fresh and kept it tuned up.

 

[xmim]

Here in europe 500 hrs would be as new, less than 5000 hrs good used, and 10000 hrs worn out even for Fendt and JD.

 

[Ruark]

There's a LOT of variability in the quality of old tractors. For some reason, many, many people thinks it's acceptable to leave a tractor sitting in the middle of a pasture when it's not being used, never touching it, never changing fluids, etc. until its a gummed up, rusted out old hulk. Then it's repainted and put up for sale: "good tractor, low hours..."

Just like in cars, leaking oil is almost a sure sign that fluids haven't been changed. Sludge builds up and blocks oil from reaching seals and gaskets, which then dry up and start leaking. And of course, availability of maintenance and parts is a major consideration.

I started out spending a LOT of time hunting for a used tractor and doing hours and hours of research on the internet, talking to people, etc. I ended up just spending a little more money and getting a new one.

- Ruark