Hill Climbing Primer

[Egon]

Ovrszd; surely reads like we're being flamoosaled by a couple of folks thinking themselves to
be educated and knowledgeable far and above us shorter word challenged fellows and we should just blindly accept our lack of education and Their knowledge.

No doubt we were all wrong eh!

 

[SPYDERLK]

Ovrszd; surely reads like we're being flamoosaled by a couple of folks

No doubt we were all wrong eh!

Dont know the term flamoosaled, but it sounds like you think someone is trying to fool you.

... Yes you were wrong when you said that it doesnt matter how low you hitch - and also kept ignoring stipulated steady state pull conditions.

I sure wish I could see the conditions leading to the reported flips from fixed drawbar pull. The happenings are statistically rare and hearsay "description" is sadly lacking analysis for the specific cases. Whatever led to them needs a close look and should be accurately conveyed to tractor people.
larry

 

[minner]

Google "Tractor rear overturn" and see the results it gets.

In highway mowing, rear tip overs or happen less frequently than side roll overs, yet account for more deaths because reaction time is far less. About 1.5 seconds due to wheel torque, where as in a side roll over, gravity does the work more slowly giving the operator more time to react.

Tractor Rollover Accidents: Causes and Prevention

 

[SPYDERLK]

There ya go again...... Calling the opposition "wrong". I don't get that. Again I say, I can only assume that means you have no further evidence to prove your point so you accuse the opposition of error??

I'm fairly sure Egon and/or myself have never called you "wrong" or any of the other condescending terms you've used in reference to us. But then I'm sure if we did you will copy/paste every one of them in your reply, along with several of your previous statements as if we might have missed reading them.

You apparently have missed reading them, because in the face of a composite of convincing evidence presented you still make the same claim invoking a defined motion that is prevented by the test configuration.

I have used no condescending term in reference to you but you have used at least one.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

Google "Tractor rear overturn" and see the results it gets.

In highway mowing, rear tip overs or happen less frequently than side roll overs, yet account for more deaths because reaction time is far less. About 1.5 seconds due to wheel torque, where as in a side roll over, gravity does the work more slowly giving the operator more time to react.

Tractor Rollover Accidents: Causes and Prevention

Theres absolutely no detail there. They dont even mention hitch point. No account Iv ever read discusses the specific details of a rear tipover. Id be interested to see a thorough investigation of cause if you find one.
larry

 

[minner]

I'd guess that drawbar weight has a significant effect on the situation, such as towing a 6000lb batwing up an incline. There is a pretty great downward pressure on the drawbar in that situation. Also if the operator stopped, or even rolled back slightly, and then accelerated that would be another recipe for disaster.
I would agree with your inclination that drawbar height does have much to do with how easy a rear tip can occur.
.

 

[Egon]

Patterns of fatal machine rollovers in Canadian agriculture - Chronic Diseases and Injuries in Canada - Public Health Agency of Canada

 

[SPYDERLK]

Patterns of fatal machine rollovers in Canadian agriculture - Chronic Diseases and Injuries in Canada - Public Health Agency of Canada

Well, we have improper hitching. And we knew that was a problem. Detail on instances with proper hitching is where to look for the mechanism by which the built in safety parameters somehow are bypassed by specific circumstances.
larry

 

[Egon]

Well, we have improper hitching. And we knew that was a problem. Detail on instances with proper hitching is where to look for the mechanism by which the built in safety parameters somehow are bypassed by specific circumstances.
larry

Or maybe a rear flip is possible when hooked below the drawbar.

Maybe inspect your parameters for obvious overlooked items you can get your head around.

 

[ovrszd]

Ovrszd; surely reads like we're being flamoosaled by a couple of folks thinking themselves to
be educated and knowledgeable far and above us shorter word challenged fellows and we should just blindly accept our lack of education and Their knowledge.

No doubt we were all wrong eh!

Yep.

I give Larry credit for trying real hard to dummy it down so I can understand it. But he continues to add stipulations to my simple statement. It's obvious to me that it does not matter to Larry what my statement is. He will continue to dispute it. Even though in one comment he admitted that the front of the tractor would lighten in my stated situation.

CalG gives my statement no credibility and matter of factly states so.

I have tried to always stick to the facts of my statement. I've also tried to get a simple answer to my questions. I now believe that is not possible from Larry or CalG. It's just not in their nature to put this situation into daily use terms. Instead they try to complicate it with lengthy dialect about varying situations and conditions.

So, I am left with little to add.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Yep.

I give Larry credit for trying real hard to dummy it down so I can understand it. But he continues to add stipulations to my simple statement. It's obvious to me that it does not matter to Larry what my statement is. He will continue to dispute it. Even though in one comment he admitted that the front of the tractor would lighten in my stated situation.

CalG gives my statement no credibility and matter of factly states so.

I have tried to always stick to the facts of my statement. I've also tried to get a simple answer to my questions. I now believe that is not possible from Larry or CalG. It's just not in their nature to put this situation into daily use terms. Instead they try to complicate it with lengt hy dialect about varying situations and conditions.

So, I am left with little to add.

I answered every question. You were silent. I gave you a simple answer illustrating by math that the broad claim you and Egon make is incorrect. In response I hear that there is something else missing that makes your claim correct. There is not. You are throwing chaff. You have taken something that is evident from using wrenches to get a stuck nut off a bolt and totally missed its significance.

The use of mysticism in science, and by others against science is the most effective weapon against actual knowledge. - - Find an explanation that survives a minimum of surface scrutiny and makes a good sound byte and then quit thinking. "Everybody knows". People latch on and resist anything complete enuf to be correct.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

Or maybe a rear flip is possible when hooked below the drawbar.

Maybe inspect your parameters for obvious overlooked items you can get your head around.

I know of things that could cause it. I have mentioned several. No evidence that the ideas entered your head ay all..
larry

 

[CalG]

Simple terms:

When the front end of the tractor lifts, the rear drawbar of the tractor will lower. This is a function of tractor geometry. The higher the front end raises, the lower the rear drawbar is driven. As the drawbar lowers, the angle of pull and the leverage the load has to tip a tractor rearward is also lowered. By design, a load will always lose its ability to tip a tractor rearward before the tractors CG reaches the rear stability baseline. As the load loses its ability to continue to tip he tractor rearward, the front end falls back to the ground. [end]

From National Ag Safety Database - Tractor Overturn Hazards ( previously posted)

But without explanation of why.

Understandable?

 

[CalG]

Information most pertinanent to the OP topic of "a hill climbing primer".

From the same document;
National Ag Safety Database - Tractor Overturn Hazards

[quote} For example, when a tractor is in a deep hole, or is traveling up a steep incline, the distance between the tractors CG and rear stability baseline is narrowed. If excessive rear axle torque is applied, the tractor will reach the point of no return more quickly. Figure 4 illustrates this situation. [end]

Of particular note , and missing from the document description, is when ascending an incline going forward, the Center of Mass of the tractor both moves rearward, and UP relative to the drive point of the tires and the rotation axis at the axle compared to a similar configuration of travel and load on flat ground. This change in CoM location exacerbates the effects of wheel torque and high hitched load, if present.

High CoG is Good if you desire maximum weight transfer on acceleration, such as a fuel dragster, but not so good is just pulling a heavy load. High CoG does NOTHING to improve traction in a steady state situation. That is, Not accelerating. But it does make things "tippy".

 

[SPYDERLK]

Simple terms:

When the front end of the tractor lifts, the rear drawbar of the tractor will lower. This is a function of tractor geometry. The higher the front end raises, the lower the rear drawbar is driven. As the drawbar lowers, the angle of pull and the leverage the load has to tip a tractor rearward is also lowered. By design, a load will always lose its ability to tip a tractor rearward before the tractors CG reaches the rear stability baseline. As the load loses its ability to continue to tip he tractor rearward, the front end falls back to the ground. [end]

From National Ag Safety Database - Tractor Overturn Hazards ( previously posted)

But without explanation of why.

Understandable?

The words are good, but not if you look at Fig 5.
I said rufly the same thing back in post#83.

 

[CalG]

Don't look at figure #5, ! [;-)

yes, (previously posted) includes your contributions.

Are we on track yet? Some need to know why, some ask for simplicity.

How to get those logs up safely!

 

[Egon]

I know of things that could cause it. I have mentioned several. No evidence that the ideas entered your head ay all..
larry

Don't worry, not much enters my head these days. Seems it's already been breached and the cache is full.

Like; tractors can flip over backwards when hooked below the axle. Knew that one before I was ten and it's still entered in my head. Also knew that the three point hitch wasn't common in my area so hitching was below the axle. Also knew enough to keep a foot on the clutch when pulling a heavy load. Even popped it in so the falling front of the tractor would give a little advantage when I popped it out. Musta been thinking of spaners when that was done?

Are you gona come up with facts soon or just keep on trying to sell yourself to the challenged. Got no money to buy any of that stuff anyway.

 

[CalG]

Don't worry, not much enters my head these days. Seems it's already been breached and the cache is full.

Like; tractors can flip over backwards when hooked below the axle. Knew that one before I was ten and it's still entered in my head. Also knew that the three point hitch wasn't common in my area so hitching was below the axle. Also knew enough to keep a foot on the clutch when pulling a heavy load. Even popped it in so the falling front of the tractor would give a little advantage when I popped it out. Musta been thinking of spaners when that was done?


Are you gona come up with facts soon or just keep on trying to sell yourself to the challenged. Got no money to buy any of that stuff anyway.

Egon

Your comments in this post are "trolling". That is, stirring up emotions and so trouble. Such approaches seldom result in anything worthwhile.

I ask you to please not do that. And I ask that you point out such comments by me in turn.

 

[CalG]

Simple terms:
The words are good, but not if you look at Fig 5.
I said rufly the same thing back in post#83.

Did you note the mis information that is presented in the plan view of the "stability baseline" associated with conventional and tricycle wheel arrangements?
The front axles on all of my tractors pivot on a single pin ;-)

 

[Egon]

Did you note the mis information that is presented in the plan vie of the "stability baseline" associated with conventional and tricycle whell arrangements?
The front axles on all of my tractors pivot on a single pin ;-)

Had my head around that one too!

Picked up a fishing licence last week but just havin a canoe makes trolling difficult.