Help I being Screwed!!

[nediver]

Hello all,

i wish this wasnt my first post here. I have a kubota L2800 TLB and will soon be looking at buying a CK25 or 30. However, I can't ask a bunch of questions about that now as I am being screwed by a rental company.

So here is the deal.


I rented a 35hp HST Allmand tractor with 9 ft BH when Kubota was being used by father in law. When I went to use the backhoe to dig up a small maybe 300 lb rock that was about 6" below grade the tractor began leaking fluid. Since it happened just after the first time i curled bucket i thought it was water in the bucket or something. When I jumped off I saw the bucket cylinder had broken. Thats my story and now I am being pursued and encouraged to file homeowners claim. Which would get paid at now cost to me if I was found liable, but I feel like Im being taken advantage of.

I have been told I "dead-ended" the bucket. When it was explained to me I was confused, either I pushed the BH too far or I over extended it. I'm not real clear on what he is saying.

I have put the kubota through the paces and thats a lesser BH than this one, if you push the BH it should go to bypass right?

I truely did not abuse this machine, but I dont know enough to discuss what actually could have happened.


Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Pic 4

 

[spruce Deere]

Welcome to TBN. Looks like something fatigued and failed...... mettle on the gland, barrel or service persons at rental place. Cylinders usually have tell-tail signs of problems and sometimes just "gut them-selfs" with alot of normal use, not counting rental service. Thats how they try to get out of paying for there own negligence. One person beats the holy livn tar out of it, opon returning it the rental place inspects it mabe, washes the machine up good, mabe some paint, and then the next guy rents it and gets blamed for all. I would have some words

 

[Ridgewalker]

Can you tell them that you will turn it in but that after having pix reviewed by "experts" that you believe they have a fraudulent claim and that you will be reporting same to your insurance company when you file? They may not want your insurance to have someone check it out if it can be proved to be a wear/time break.

 

[JoelD]

This seems very simple to me.

You rented machine, it broke, they come and fix machine or bring you another one and you finish your rental use and return machine.

They either owe you money back for hours not used or a free rental for hours not used.

Period, the end.

They either give you money back or make up rental hours or your bring them to court to get your money or rental time.

This is silly.

Joel

 

[Rebel]

You are being screwed, dead ending a cylinder is complete BS. There is an internal bypass valve in the hydraulic system that when working properly will prevent a "dead ending" type failure. There could be problems elsewhere in the system that could have caused this type of failure. I would suggest you post this in the Hydraulics section of the forum.

 

[GIJOE]

Its hard to tell from the pics, but, it looks like the metal is discolored from corrosion. If it is, that has been like that for a while, and just happen to break when you used it.

Joe

 

[Shmudda]

This is why you rent equipment, so you dont have the expense of purchasing one for a one time job or project. Just like anything else, its the rental companies responsibility to ensure the equipement is in workable condition so you get your contractal time paid for out of it, worry and maintenance free too!

I would let your insurance company know whats going on, and then tell them to come get their junk, and inform them they owe you the full cost of the rental back. Hope you didnt pay cash, if its on a credit card then just stop payment....end of discussion!

Good luck to you.......

Craig

 

[Travelover]

I agree with above posters. I worked for an equipment rental company for several years and we never charged anyone for breaking something unless it was very flagrant abuse. The occasional oops is priced into the rental price.

And has been stated, you can't pop a cylinder by not letting up on the control lever - that is what the bypass is for. If you could, everyone posting here would have popped a couple of cylinders by now.

If you file a homeowner claim, your insurance rate is likely to rise and you'll be stuck with the deductible, plus it is not a valid claim. You are the wronged party here.

 

[Scooby074]

"Normal" wear and tear on a rental machine to me. The head of the cylinder can get fatigued from the piston contacting it and let go in a manner such as yours. The relief should have gone to bypass if the cyllinder was at maximum extension, but there still is some force put on the head/cushion. Not your fault, just happens over time.

They're just trying to get you to pick up the tab for their maintenance. Did you pay for the rental insurance? You'd never see me put that through my personal insurance, actually id be after the rental company for the lost time on the rental.

Good luck.

 

[Kernopelli]

As stated before, they are giving you the run around and attempting to scam you into paying for something that isn't your fault or responsibility.
That hoe has hydraulic relief valves. You should be able to hold any hydraulic control lever in any fully extended or retracted position for minutes on end ( if you wanted to... but nobody's going to) and not hurt the cylinders or the hydraulic components or pump. That's the way they are designed. I regularly run a Komatsu W200 wheel loader and Case 580 BH at work and "dead end" the hydraulics every time I'm on them, same thing with my personal tractor. When that happens, the relief valve opens and you let off the control a little and go on. The Allmand's cylinder was fatigued or the system relief failed, one or the other. Neither being your fault. Tell them to take a hike. If you want to make sure this is all correct, call Allmand and run it by them and see if they designed their equipment to fail when a cylinder is dead headed, they'll laugh and explain why your local rental company is run by idiots.
Brad Allmand (800) 562-1373 ballmand@allmand.com

 

[PILOON]

I'll bet some previous users slammed the bucket using it as a pick, probably trying to break rocks or 'pick' into hardpan.
That's one way to build up excessive pressure in a cylinder causing it to 'blow its hat' so to speak.

Unfortunately rentals get excessive abuse like that, from ignorance or deliberate abuse.
There seems to exist an attitude with rental tools.

 

[EddieWalker]

All good advice.

Is this a big rental company? or a small, local business?

Then next time you talk to somebody from the rental company, tell them that you are taking notes and that you want his name and position with the company. Then ask him for his supervisor, or the owner of the company. I wouldn't call my insurance company. It's not their concern.

How much are they saying the damage is? Do they have a list of what that damage is? Most cylinders can be rebuilt for as little as $40 to several hundred dollars. I've had some special work done on a few cylinders that I had to have welded and machined back to the right size, and that was just a couple hundred dollars.

Even if they are trying to rape you with $100 an hour for labor, it's still just a two hour job. No way does it look like more then $500 in damage with labor.

Eddie

 

[Taylortractornut]

Looks like the retainer ring and part of the head broke. Ive had that happen on a small rental hoe that a friend bought from a backyard rental store. The whole cylinder head came out. The ring had mauledthe grove when it came out but the head was good didnt have and thing to keep it in. I cut a round washero ut of plat and left a hole for the rod and welded it back on. There no way that just happened that was abuse from many users. I saay screw the rental company to, they should have insurance for that and replace your lost time. I went through this with RSC one time over a locked fuel cap on a t190 loader. They charged me 85 for a fill up on it when I did leave them 10 gallons of fuel in buckets. THey didnt have the tank unlocked and said that was the wages on the work to refill it. I also sentthem a bill for the landscaping their pick up man ran over the lawn to,.

 

[JoeinTX]

Agree will all of the above. The rental company factors (or, at least it should) just these types of events into their pricing and policies. Things break. Sometime things break when some jerk-bag is jockying them around abusing them and sometimes they break in normal use, like your case. You can normally tell them apart.


My dad rented a Ditch-Witch trencher many years ago to dig a water line..........and it promptly through a rod about an hour into the dig. Rental company brought out another trencher later that day and hauled the old one back to the shop. No problem, no debate. That is what should be happening in your case here.


Honestly, I would challenge them about this. No reason for you or your insurance company to be made liable for this since, after all, this is the rental agencies responsibility to you and not the other way around.

 

[greenmule]

Well,I was thinking about renting a little dozer soon,but if I do,I will read that paper I sign very good.

Cause to me thats what this all boils down to,if the rental paper work says you have to pay for anything you break,well there it is.

If it says you have to pay for anything other than normal wear and tear,thats open to much debate isn't it,unless it says exactly what normal wear and tear is.

I wouldn't give them a dime unless the court forced me too.

Thats what they do,rent things,and the things they rent,break,they know that.
In other words it is not up to them to say you have to pay,if the contract doesn't say you do.
To me not normal wear and tear on a machine like that would be turning it over,or building a brush fire and burning it by stacking brush on fire.or running it dry of fluids and damageing something,or maybe banging boom sideways into a cliff.
Anything breaking by just using it for what it was intended to be used for is just the way machines are,they break every now and than,we all know that.

 

[deereboy72]

First off the rental company should of ran a pre inspection. If they did not Run a pre inspection it is not your fault if you had your equipment somebody else could of rented the machine and it could of happened to them it is not your fault you did not know the condition of the cylinders they should not charge you for the damage they should have insurance or for the machine if not they should fix the machine them selves or sell it and THEY SHOULD TEST THE CONDITION OF EVERY MACHINE BEFORE RENTING IT OUT!!!

 

[kenstrac]

Something looks strange here can you take a picture further away from side so we can see bucket position and bucket attachment arms.

 

[J_J]

I really hate to disagree with some of you on why the cylinder blew out, but it is very possible that the cylinder blew out by what is called ram force. That is when the bucket, or whatever is attached to the cylinder, is used as a ram force, and can exceed the relief pressure . Ram force also occurs when you are dropping a load fast and you release the handles suddenly while dropping. The spike generated can and will destroy some things, whatever is the weakest. I am not saying that it happened, but that it could.

If you want to see this in action, just put a gage in the cylinder circuit and drop a loaded bucket and then catch it before it hits the ground. The spike generated may very well exceed the pump output pressure and or relief settings. This is no BS.

The reason that the reliefs don't protect all the time is because they are designed to relieve a small amount of fluid and can not handle the pressure/volume from a cylinder acting as a ram.

 

[mwb]

Many rental firms have a "damage waiver" insurance coverage that is optional for you. Were you offered this and declined? This insurance would not cover blatant abuse but failure due to normal use would be.

I worked in the rental business for many years; I never really agreed with the damage waiver. It doesn't seem fair to have a machine with thousands of hours on it and then expect the customer to insure it against (normal) failure.

How many hours on the machine? Pics of your rock (any big chips out of it)? Inspect the cracks and see if there is any sign of corrosion which indicate a fatigue failure.

What about offering a compromise on it; split the cost of the new cylinder but ask for your lost time back on the machine or some other rental credit. It is easy for them to give you some extra time on the machine to reduce their repair cost. With the way you are both handling this they will loose a customer, you loose a source of rental equipment, lost time and aggravation for both sides... sometimes being part of the solution rather than denying any responsibility is more productive and you might even develop a relationship with them.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

The retaining ring gave out, simple as that. There is nothing you did wrong. If there was excessive pressure in the system, either the rod would have bent or the barrel would have split first. They're trying to hose you and get you to pay for something that just happens to equipment. It gets old and breaks, simple as that.
When new cylinders are manufactured, they are usually tested to 1.5x their rated pressure for at least 5 minutes.

JJ, that theory would hold except for it's the wrong end of the cylinder. Ram force from dropping a bucket would not put any excessive pressure on the gland end of the cylinder.