Ground water heat pump?

[pennwalk]

We have been thinking about replacing our oil fired furnace with a ground water heat pump. Two years ago we got estimates to do the work but we were put off by the price. We took another crack at it recently and were shocked to have the updated estimates come in about $5000 more that the last time. When I sat down and looked at the estimates I realized that the 3 companies had all specified different size systems. 3,4,5 ton. I am wondering if the costs really went up that much in 2 years and if anyone knows a web site that I can work out what size system we need to check the proposals?

Chris

 

[moeh1]

Someone on this board lives down in PA (Techman? I think) and put his own in (he is a contractor) and he is happy, hopefully he'll chime in. I was really intrigued a couple years ago, but the cost and low number of sales and service people were working against me. There is one big HVAC forum online for both homeowners and professionals but I no longer have it bookmarked. To really assess your needs you can either do a Manual J calculation or call in a professional energy audit firm to assess your lheating and colling loads. Probably well worth your money given the ranges you are seeing. You don't want to oversize or you won't get rid of the humidity. If you undersize, backup heat may eat up all your savings...
By the way, I went with an upper end air source heat pump and am quite happy. The ground source seem to have a payback period between 10 and 20 years, thats was the hard sell for me

 

[Hammy]

I have a geothermal heat pump. Its great! I can't say enough about it. However, that being said, I just built a house for my mother and we had an air source heat pump installed. It's a higher end 3 Ton unit and works great. The break down in operating cost isn't all that different.

In an average 1800 sf house, our electric company ran a cost comparison to heat that average house using different energy sources. Of course the geothermal came in as the most efficient and costing around $256 a year but the air source was only about $130 more per year, which isn't a lot. I'm not sure why everyone isn't replacing their gas furnaces with heat pumps.

Here's a link to the cost comparison. It's not the link you were looking for but its good information.

Fuel Cost Comparison

 

[srossman]

there also a new air source heat pump made by hallowell industries that is supposed to work to -30F unlike a normal heat pump which requires backup heat at around 32F. I've started to look into these new heat pumps, but haven't decided what direction to go in yet.

 

[mahlers]

I've been thinking of installing a geothermal heat pump for some time, but haven't gotten around to calling around for prices yet (house won't be livable for at least another year). Price-wise, what are we talking for the cost of the system itself (not including labor, that varies so much region-to-region that any numbers probably won't be meaningful)? I'm thinking of installing two 2-ton units - one for each side of the house. The Water Furnace units look really nice - anyone have experience with those?

 

[KAB]

We have been thinking about replacing our oil fired furnace with a ground water heat pump. Two years ago we got estimates to do the work but we were put off by the price. We took another crack at it recently and were shocked to have the updated estimates come in about $5000 more that the last time. When I sat down and looked at the estimates I realized that the 3 companies had all specified different size systems. 3,4,5 ton. I am wondering if the costs really went up that much in 2 years and if anyone knows a web site that I can work out what size system we need to check the proposals?

Chris

Here is a good good website to get information: GreenBuildingTalk - Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF), Structural Insulated Panels (SIP), Radiant Heating, Geothermal Heat Pumps, Solar Power

There is a lot of knowledge on that site. I would want to make sure that whoever installs the system does a correct heat loss/ cooling load calculation. Too big of a system is just as bad as to small of a system.

Kurt

 

[Tig]

Water furnace was quite popular around here when I built. A couple neigbours had them but have long since replaced them. Water issues I think. I felt water furnace was over powered in cooling (in Canada). I opted for a Rockton which had passive water cooling (no compressor in summer). That was 18 years ago. I like it so much I will take it with me when I move to the country side.

 

[Bill Barrett]

Here is a heat loss heat gain program Don Sleeth is a great guy.
I was installing a geothermal unit today. They are high end on the cost meter. Also check out this other site, the guy has real time monitoring of his system as it runs, very cool. If you have any questions just holler.

HVAC, HVAC/R, heating ventilation and air conditioning heat loss

Real-Time HVAC monitoring page for OurCoolHouse.com

 

[BobRip]

I looked at this briefly when I built my house. I went with ICF which keeps our heating and cooling cost to $30 a month. This is so low that a normal two speed heat pump works fine and heats the house down to around 20 F. I only have the emergency heat kick in about once a year, if that. Put you money in insulation, it last forever if done right.

 

[Hammy]

Mine is a Water Furnace brand. From the research I did, they seemed to be the Cadilac system.

I don't have number's for the system alone without the labor to install.

I did dig/backfill my own trenches. I have a 6 Ton unit that heats/cools 5500 sf (floor square footage). I have 6 trenches that are 6-7' deep and 130' long (each).

Mine runs great and has been doing so for 2 years now.

 

[KYErik]

I have a 3 ton Water Furnace unit- installed 6 years ago it might be hair undersized because one July day, it was 95 humid degrees outside and with my wife cooking a big meal- it couldn't quite keep up.

Its a closed loop system with 1500 ft of line (750 feet of trenches) buried 4 feet deep.

My house is 1500 square feet, cape cod and is fairly well insulated.

I think the system was about $5K installed, but I had to run my own ductwork (its a new house)- they just drew the ductwork plans out for me.

 

[Dale Binkley]

Pennwalk: I live in Chester County (not terribly far from you). I had a ground source heat pump (WaterFurnace,closed loop system) installed almost 2 years ago. It replaced a 30 year old oil burner, a pellet stove and a 15 year old central AC system. Everything was still working but we decided to make a change before we got caught in a "have to" situation.

After 2 years I can say that I am very satisfied with this setup. The first year of operation I saved just over $1000 in total energy costs (electric, fuel oil and wood pellets). Our home is much more comfortable and my wife is happy. I got rid of the pellet stove we used to supplement the old heating system, capped off the chimney and stuffed some insulation up into the fire shelf area of the fireplace to try to keep any cold air from infiltraiting into the house.

I didn't shop a lot for price. I went with a local installer who uses good quality equipment and has a good reputation for backing up what he sells. I passed up on another local installer who sells bottom line equipment and cuts corners on his work - not worth the money I would "save".

I don't know much about how prices of units have changed over the last year or two but it is still worthwhile to look into this type of system from an efficiency standpoint.

 

[techman]

I heard my name mentioned! yes I stand guilty as accused.

I installed my system about 2 1/2 years ago and it has been working flawlessly since. As mentioned, ClimateMaster and WaterFurnace are the two top brands. Many of the same people involved in both, and they have similar performance, etc. savings are impressive, but be aware that the initial install cost will be high. I have installed both horizontal and vertical closed loop systems. if you don't have much land, you are locked into a vertical system with drilled boreholes. The drilling costs are about half of the total and can be 50%-100% higher than a horizontal (trench) system. I usually tell clients that you should not look at the absolute cost, but at the difference over a new high efficiency heating and cooling system as a comparison. It will be approx 50% over a 16 SEER heat pump, equivalent in size, but you will be at 27 SEER, more reliable, quieter and have a system that will last much longer.

Here is a link to my thread about my own project:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/74680-geothermal-heat-pump-project.html

paul

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

Here is a site with info that might be helpful:

NORDIC

 

[Sigarms]

It will be approx 50% over a 16 SEER heat pump, equivalent in size, but you will be at 27 SEER, more reliable, quieter and have a system that will last much longer.http://

Personally, I think a geothermal system is the best way to go if you can afford it (which can include MANY factors that has nothing to do with the cost of the equipment itself). That said, I think it's a little unfair comparing the upfront cost of a geothermal system to a 16 SEER system. 16 SEER systems usually use a two stage compressor. ROI ("payback" as I tell people) going from 14 SEER to 16 SEER is minimal at best (over 15 year minimum usually). Problem for the homeowner is the upfront cost of the 16 SEER equipment is substantially higher (at least 35%) than a 14 SEER system (both being variable speed).

Now, if you want to install a 20 or 21 SEER conventional forced air system, just go with the Geothermal and don't even bother to look back.

 

[BobRip]

One of the big cost of Gerthermal is digging the trenches. If you can do this yourself, them it makes the whole system make more sense.

 

[techman]

16 SEER systems usually use a two stage compressor.

Now, if you want to install a 20 or 21 SEER conventional forced air system, just go with the Geothermal and don't even bother to look back.

Given that the best high SEER geo units also use 2 stage compressors, I finds that to compare a 27 SEER you should try to use the closest equivalent air based system, which today is a 16 SEER.

For most people, ROI on a geo system is over 10 years based on the cost of the install. As I had sail for a more realistic number base the ROI on the cost differential from as close-to-the-same conventional system. The numbers will look a lot more favorable. Likewise on new construction look at the difference between a geo and a more conventional heat-cooling system, rather than the absolute cost of the geo system by itself.

paul

 

[Tororider]

Has anyone thought used or thought about using a geothermal system in conjunction with radiant heating? I am at least a few years from building, more if the housing market in MI doesn't change and I could sell my house, but have been looking into it. Wondering if anyone else had done that?

 

[techman]

Has anyone thought used or thought about using a geothermal system in conjunction with radiant heating?

Radiant heat with geo is not that uncommon. I have installed a few systems. You use a water-water geo heat pump. Only trick is to design the radiant system for 120 deg F max. The other side is that you still need to install ducting for A/C. A water coil is used in the air handler for cooling.

paul

 

[schmism]

There are some other options other than huge trenches in the front/back yard for the heat pump.

Ive heard of dual wells, pump ground water up, circulate it and pump it back down into a second well a few feet away from the first. concerns about contaminating ground water are low as the system is seperate, and the well doesnt run dry because the 2 holes are so close they supply each other.

toss some loops out into a pond is the cheepest. (must spec size of pond to BTU/hr)

ive even heard of people useing a bypass meter on there water service. you use the existing municipal water pipes as your loop.