Grid-tied solar

[dave1949]

That is an absolute myth and the so called "subsidies" are business expense deductions that every other business gets in this country. Gas, oil, nuclear and coal industries have paid their way from the beginning and in fact most have a smaller profit margin than any other business group. The record millions in profits is based purely on the huge volume they do. I thank God these companies keep exploring and providing us with the energy we need.

I am sort of ambivalent about nuclear energy. It has always cost more than predicted and there are certainly health issues related to uranium mining that are probably avoidable but at a higher cost. Any nuclear plant disaster is a real disaster.

The fossil fuel industries and its customers have never paid their full fare, and when they even come close, it is because they are forced to by citizen pressure. It just isn't possible to extract, transport and refine or process those fuels without imposing an environmental cost.

It is a fantasy to pretend we can utterly destroy 100's of square miles of the boreal forest in Alberta, Canada to extract tar sands without paying an environmental price, for example. The same is true of mountain top removal or entering wilderness habitat for drilling. Our mere presence, whether spills occur or not, in wilderness areas is destructive. There are no oil rigs, pipelines, trucks and planes in true wilderness.

There is a high environmental and human health cost when fossil fuels are utilized (burned). The cost of utilization can be mitigated to a degree, but doing so makes them much more expensive; their clean-use and carbon mitigated costs approach or exceed alternative energy sources.

We need fossil fuels, but we also need to constrain their uses to areas where no reasonable alternatives exist. Put another way, why would we degrade or destroy the environment and impair our own health when that isn't necessary?

Why do people have the attitude that "If solar isn't a great money making investment for me, I won't do it?" I think it is because people just do not see the environment in a global, long-term perspective. If my backyard looks pretty much like it did five years ago, nothing bad is happening anywhere--is false.

I don't want this thread to turn into another global warming echo chamber or a debate about the environment. I hope if you are here, it is because you have an interest in, experience, or information to share about alternative energy, energy use strategies and conservation.

 

[dave1949]

I just checked ours. This is from sunny N. Calif, about an hour east of Sacramento in the foothills. Today was sunny and clear; we generated 29.82kWh. 7/27-8/25 we generated 916kWh from our 5kW system.
View attachment 278096

That's pretty good. I have had several 20 kw days recently. As the sun angle declines, I am getting higher point-in-time readings. I have seen it hit 3400 watts around mid-day. We had 3-4 days of very overcast rainy weather before this clear spell, had a couple 2-3 kw days in that stretch.

My usage over the past 12 months with the propane fired water heater was 3,992 kWh, 333 kWh/month average. I have no idea yet how much the electric water heater will add over a year's time, I thought it could as much as double our usage based on estimates. I need to accumulate several complete months with the net meters and system output to find my net monthly usage. I think it roughly would be: (In from utility + system output - Out to utility)

Our 4.32 kWh system is rated by the PVwatts calculator at 4,447 kWh annually.

 

[dave1949]

Hello from down under!
Hey guys you have forgotten the golden rule of utility companies in your sums and payback time. Prices are may be expected to increase for whatever weasel worded reason. Usually "equipment upgrading" huh!
Here in NZ we annually get a price rise of 10% a year. We have a varied pricing structure ranging from NZ 23.51c/unit to NZ25.48c/unit.
My next house due soon? I will have a solar system included with the build. Currently here depending on plumbing charges for any changes going solar cost around NZ$13,000.
Go for it.

$1 US = NZ $1.2329
That is expensive power. Our electric supply rates are actually falling a bit in some areas. The natural gas supply is way above domestic demand currently, natural gas is selling very cheap. Won't last, but we can enjoy it while it does.

Good luck with your upcoming house. If you have questions, we are good at helping people spend their money here at TBN

 

[tcartwri]

I just checked ours. This is from sunny N. Calif, about an hour east of Sacramento in the foothills. Today was sunny and clear; we generated 29.82kWh. 7/27-8/25 we generated 916kWh from our 5kW system.
View attachment 278096

62KWh here yesterday, but there was a slight haze in the air.... 1750 for the month.

 

[tcartwri]

That is an absolute myth and the so called "subsidies" are business expense deductions that every other business gets in this country. Gas, oil, nuclear and coal industries have paid their way from the beginning and in fact most have a smaller profit margin than any other business group. The record millions in profits is based purely on the huge volume they do. I thank God these companies keep exploring and providing us with the energy we need.

I'll have to remember that when I pay my 'debt retirement fee' to Ontario Hydro every month for the next 20 years.

 

[Travelover]

I am sort of ambivalent about nuclear energy. It has always cost more than predicted and there are certainly health issues related to uranium mining that are probably avoidable but at a higher cost. Any nuclear plant disaster is a real disaster.............................

It is worse than that. No insurance company will insure against a nuclear accident, thus Uncle Sam has to provide that insurance for free. Another imaginary subsidy.

 

[madmax12]

It is worse than that. No insurance company will insure against a nuclear accident, thus Uncle Sam has to provide that insurance for free. Another imaginary subsidy.

Yes... But with leaders (political party irrelevant...even whatever country is irrelevant, IMO) who are bad at math, and psuedo monopoly money, they don't see any trouble with subsidies of almost any kind...

Plus, monopoly money at 0% interest is even more appealing to the mathematically deficient.

My post relates to solar, in that we are shedding light on the subject...

 

[dave1949]

Yes... But with leaders (political party irrelevant...even whatever country is irrelevant, IMO) who are bad at math, and psuedo monopoly money, they don't see any trouble with subsidies of almost any kind...

Plus, monopoly money at 0% interest is even more appealing to the mathematically deficient.

My post relates to solar, in that we are shedding light on the subject...

Don't you have something better to do ? :cool2: What's going on with that?
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/254468-best-material-parking-car-tractor-4.html

 

[DarkBlack]

Dave, you know what I like? I like the computer controlled mirror grids that track the sun and focus the light on a boiler. The boiler drives a steam turbine which drives a genny. That concept can take advantage of desert wastelands, and can have a decent payback.

 

[madmax12]

Don't you have something better to do ? :cool2: What's going on with that?
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/254468-best-material-parking-car-tractor-4.html

Yeah, like everyone, there is a ton of life happening...so that has to fit in to the myriad of other projects. May get done this fall... May wait til spring. Will update as happens. Actually still having trouble with the complete finished vision of the project. I'm afraid of it not enhancing the property. A gravel driveway can be done for a multi-million dollar estate, beautifully, or it can look like a cheap, messy, ignorant mistake. I don't think I'm ready, yet... so still trying to figure it out.

Talking with better half about storyland trip with kiddos...

One day at a time.

Does storyland take monopoly money?

 

[pokerboy57]

I looked and looked and looked at solar because in Florida I pay .12 kwh. 2 items to consider. .
1. The cost of electricity will only go up. So it's .12/kwh today. I was told , but didn't not verify that you can expect a 6% annual cost increase year over year (averaged over a 10 year period). After ten years the cost is a little less than double the original cost. So the good news is , over time you will save more money.

But

This is the bad news. In Florida the solar model assumes peak electrical production of 5 1/2 hours per day. For those living farther north I assume that the average would be less. In conclision, I didn't find a financial model which showed a return on investment I was willing to accept.

 

[DarkBlack]

At 12 cents a kwh.. enjoy. People spend more monthly on a cell phone than that. That's just a little cheaper than what I have here. For the convience it provides, you can't beat it. I have hpe that the PV engineers will have a breakthrough soon, then it's time to buy.

 

[dave1949]

Yeah, like everyone, there is a ton of life happening...so that has to fit in to the myriad of other projects. May get done this fall... May wait til spring. Will update as happens. Actually still having trouble with the complete finished vision of the project. I'm afraid of it not enhancing the property. A gravel driveway can be done for a multi-million dollar estate, beautifully, or it can look like a cheap, messy, ignorant mistake. I don't think I'm ready, yet... so still trying to figure it out.

Talking with better half about storyland trip with kiddos...

One day at a time.

Does storyland take monopoly money?

I see. It's too hot today anyway for any serious outdoor work. It will come together in your head, give it time.
I had to check where Storyland is, never been there, but I'm sure they accept Monopoly Money in Live Free Or Die Land.
Have you been down/up the Kancamagus Hwy? Pretty road, free shallow stream along side that kids would probably like.

 

[madmax12]

I see. It's too hot today anyway for any serious outdoor work. It will come together in your head, give it time.
I had to check where Storyland is, never been there, but I'm sure they accept Monopoly Money in Live Free Or Die Land.
Have you been down/up the Kancamagus Hwy? Pretty road, free shallow stream along side that kids would probably like.

Been over that many times, but not with the family... Lots of Moose, in them thar hills... That might be a nice thing to do one of these days... the shallow stream. For us, Storyland is currently a one day/all day trip. I'm gonna mention the stream to the wife. If we don't do it that day, we'll put it on "the List." Thank you Dave. :thumbsup:

 

[dave1949]

I looked and looked and looked at solar because in Florida I pay .12 kwh. 2 items to consider. .
1. The cost of electricity will only go up. So it's .12/kwh today. I was told , but didn't not verify that you can expect a 6% annual cost increase year over year (averaged over a 10 year period). After ten years the cost is a little less than double the original cost. So the good news is , over time you will save more money.

But

This is the bad news. In Florida the solar model assumes peak electrical production of 5 1/2 hours per day. For those living farther north I assume that the average would be less. In conclision, I didn't find a financial model which showed a return on investment I was willing to accept.

You may not have a very accurate estimate if you multiplied 5.5 hours times some value for peak output.

You would need to estimate your system size based on your annual kWh needs and the available sunshine. A solar calculator does that combined estimate because you provide your location and target output, or play with system sizes until you get the target output. If you haven't tried a solar calculator, here is one: NREL: PVWatts - PVWatts Grid Data Calculator (Version 2)

Then you can have a reasonable idea of what it will cost because you are pricing a specific system capacity. Once you have that cost, you are able to evaluate the financial return side.

As meburdick pointed out, all places on earth receive equal hours of potential sunshine over a year's time. The local weather conditions are what determine how much of that potential you can make use of. Looking at a solar resource map, Florida can expect at least 25% more sunshine than where I live in Maine. For every dollar you spend on equal panels, you should get roughly 25% more output than I do. But, you still have to see that as worthwhile by your own judgement.

 

[locknut]

If I were not on the north side of a hill with high trees behind me owned by my neighbor, I'd have solar for sure. I don't worry about the payback so much. I'd like having it around, monitoring it, installing it, and whole deal. I am considering moving just to get a flatter place, with more land, and one more conducive to such projects.

My all electric home power bill only costs me around $65/month in the summer, and ~$120 in the winter, but I do burn some wood. And I continue to try to drive those numbers down. First best money for me would still be more insulation...but not nearly as fun as solar and I do like fun as much as the next guy. And life just keeps getting shorter.

Reading your post brought back some memories from the 80's.We bought a house that was total electric baseboard and cost a fortune to heat.Put in a woodstove.Then made coils of copper tubing in plaster of paris on each side of the stove,put an 80 gal preheat tank in front of the main water heater with a small pump to circulate the water.This was an open-loop system w/city water pressure.It worked great and provided all hot water needs all winter long.Then the solar tax credit came along and another interesting project.Built two 4x8 boxes for the roof with copper panels painted black and plumbed everything in using the pre-tank and small pump.I remember those panels producing 140 deg water in that 80 gal tank.A little labor intensive as the valves had to be attended to morning and night.I considered it fun back in those days.Built it all myself and it actually worked great.

Then one fateful day disaster struck.I forgot to open the valve and turn the pump on one summer morning.When I came home for lunch it was raining in the living room.I had installed a water heater pop-off valve on the top header but it didn't pop.Instead,the copper header blew and the water ran down the panel and through the PVC pipe that enclosed the tubing,and was stubbed off in the attic,so water went everywhere.Insurance covered the damage,but the solar was terminated.

 

[EE_Bota]

Reading your post brought back some memories from the 80's.We bought a house that was total electric baseboard and cost a fortune to heat.Put in a woodstove.Then made coils of copper tubing in plaster of paris on each side of the stove,put an 80 gal preheat tank in front of the main water heater with a small pump to circulate the water.This was an open-loop system w/city water pressure.It worked great and provided all hot water needs all winter long.Then the solar tax credit came along and another interesting project.Built two 4x8 boxes for the roof with copper panels painted black and plumbed everything in using the pre-tank and small pump.I remember those panels producing 140 deg water in that 80 gal tank.A little labor intensive as the valves had to be attended to morning and night.I considered it fun back in those days.Built it all myself and it actually worked great.

Then one fateful day disaster struck.I forgot to open the valve and turn the pump on one summer morning.When I came home for lunch it was raining in the living room.I had installed a water heater pop-off valve on the top header but it didn't pop.Instead,the copper header blew and the water ran down the panel and through the PVC pipe that enclosed the tubing,and was stubbed off in the attic,so water went everywhere.Insurance covered the damage,but the solar was terminated.

Yikes! It sounded really good until that pop off....well, didn't.

 

[Tig]

Dave, the installation and output of your system is very interesting. Thanks for posting.
After the ice storm of 98 it seemed like everyone in Ottawa bought generators on the insurance companies dime. Any chance they got, those things were fired up and buzzing away. Glad to move from that area.
I need to have power during the day, so I am planning some solar. Just enough to power my network and pump water once a day. My daytime energy costs are as high as .11/KW and then double it to account for delivery, line loss and debt retirement charges etc. I doubt that my modest plan will qualify for any grants and that's fine. The pay back that I want is not having to use the generator.
The more people that adopt this technology, the more it will become affordable. Someone has to lead and if it takes my tax dollars to make it happen, I'd rather the dollars go to individuals like you, as opposed to corporations.

 

[dave1949]

Dave, the installation and output of your system is very interesting. Thanks for posting.
After the ice storm of 98 it seemed like everyone in Ottawa bought generators on the insurance companies dime. Any chance they got, those things were fired up and buzzing away. Glad to move from that area.
I need to have power during the day, so I am planning some solar. Just enough to power my network and pump water once a day. My daytime energy costs are as high as .11/KW and then double it to account for delivery, line loss and debt retirement charges etc. I doubt that my modest plan will qualify for any grants and that's fine. The pay back that I want is not having to use the generator.
The more people that adopt this technology, the more it will become affordable. Someone has to lead and if it takes my tax dollars to make it happen, I'd rather the dollars go to individuals like you, as opposed to corporations.

Steve, scroll down to "Hybrid Solar Systems" on this page:
Grid-Tied, Off-Grid and Hybrid Solar Systems - Energy Informative

You will add a lot of cost and complexity to your grid-tied solar system to be able to draw power from it during an outage to avoid the use of a generator. I can see what you are trying to accomplish though.

I didn't research this technology after thinking about it. I have a generator already, so it seemed like paying to backup the backup so to speak. I don't know how long the minimal battery banks in the some of the hybrids would provide power during an outage. It is hard on the lead-acid batteries to draw them down below a certain level, and you would need a reasonably sunny day after an overnight outage to recharge the batteries and provide power for your uses at the same time, especially for a smaller capacity system.

Your utility probably has the final say over the inverter you choose, mine does. They want to be assured it automatically disconnects when power is down for lineman safety. I think they work from a list of inverters they trust, if an inverter is not on their "pre-approved" list they can/probably will demand a live test.

So, whatever type of system you choose, check early-on if that is going to pass muster without over-complicating things. It would be a booger to have one installed, then fail the test. You could be in the middle between the utility saying we don't accept it, and the manufacturer who says there is nothing wrong with it.

If you can work through all that, I think your use concept is a great one and would appeal to many. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[aczlan]

Your utility probably has the final say over the inverter you choose, mine does. They want to be assured it automatically disconnects when power is down for lineman safety. I think they work from a list of inverters they trust, if an inverter is not on their "pre-approved" list they can/probably will demand a live test.

If you have the following setup: Solar Panels > Inverter > Breaker Panel > Transfer Switch > Meter
You could run something like a little Honda Inverter generator and/or a separate battery bank/inverter as the second power source and thus use their "approved" inverter AND get more bang for your buck (in the daytime) with backup power.

Aaron Z