got my pto-generator today.

v8dave · Sep 10, 2004

Lots of good information about generator hook ups here.

Bob, the sell back solar systems work as RaT describes with the addition of an overload/power fail disconnect. On a power failure a solar system isn't likey to be able to support the connected neighborhood. Plus, there is the safety issue of the utility crew restoring power. So, on a power failure the generator (solar) system is disconnected from the mains.

When I spoke with our local utility about the preferred method of connecting the transfer switch, they pointed out I was obliged to inform them of the standby power system. Obliged by law which they didn't say, but I was previously aware of.

The switch most folks are referring to is usually called a transfer switch. It transfers the house between the generator and the utility mains. In my case I have a full system transfer switch. It is a 200 amp and throws the whole house. I selectively kill the big power consumers (air conditioning) and can basically run the whole house with a less that 10 KW generator. But, we don't have an electric stove, heat or hot water (those are propane operated).

Here is a link to a net based vendor that has a good range of products and fairly understandable explainations. nooutage,com I have had a good experience in dealing with them. I'm not quite finished but, I'm building my system myself and using licensed electricians to check out my system and do the final connections.

_RaT_ · Sep 10, 2004

Dave, our "special" transfer switch is quite large. I would say the box is about 30"X30" and 12" deep. It was a hard device to find room on the wall and have it near the electric panel.
How many panels are you installing? Do you also have PG&E? Where is the rebate standing at now?

Wondering where in Northern California Mahlers lives that he doesn't get much winter sun. We get it from sun up to sun down /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif with some rainy days and a handful of foggy days.

snowman · Sep 10, 2004

Cost for me to put in a switch box for the generator off the main fuse box, along with a 15' cord for to hook the generator up to it was $600 (done by an electrician, not myself). When I flip the switch to feed power from the generator, it also "kills" the main fuse box so that there is no
back feed.

Have a 12,000 watt Yamaha generator; powers everything I need. The only circuits not hooked up are the electric range and electric clothes dryer.

One odd thing that I thought of after having most of the house circuits added is that I can't really tell when the main power comes back on. Used to leave a light switch on so that, when it lit up, I knew that the power had been restored.

Jim_Fisher · Sep 10, 2004

( Yes.. the genny does have a ground tab on it, that I'll clamp onto a piece of rebar and hammer into the ground right at the genny, in addition to hooking up the neutral / ground connection at my well just to be on the safe side
)

Good idea! That could save you a microwave oven, a couple of light bulbs, and a surge protector (don't ask me how I know this).

rcmike · Sep 10, 2004

Does anyone know of any smaller pto generators that could be ran by an 18 hp tractor? I don't need one to run my whole house, just some things (mainly some large saltwater aquariums with some expensive corals and fish) in case of another ice storm. Of course more power would always be better but it is also more $$$$.

kensfarm · Sep 10, 2004

Sorry SoundGuy.. didn't mean to overrun your post.. this is good info though.

"One bad connection is all it takes"

Def. true.. I've seen some spider-web wiring that makes you wonder why the house didn't burn down years ago.

I bought one of those (not sure of tech. name) pen sized "hot wire" detectors that lights up and blinks when you hold it up to an electrical line that's hot.. it flashes faster & makes a different noise for different amps/current. It was less then $30.. def. a must-have if your working on "someone elses" electrical setup's. I always test it before-hand on a known hot wire.. just to make sure the batteries are still good.

My old log cabin house had electric lines that just simply ended.. some on the first floor.. one in the cellar.. the one in the cellar ended up being hot.. glad I didn't touch my tongue on it! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

slowrev · Sep 10, 2004

WOW, This thing about wiring up a generator is as hot a subject as Hydro vs Gear /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

KiotiJohn · Sep 10, 2004

( Does anyone know of any smaller pto generators that could be ran by an 18 hp tractor? )
Check out this 7KW PTO generator. Says it needs 14 PTO HP to run it. John
PTO Generator
The PRICE LIST

mahlers · Sep 10, 2004

(

Wondering where in Northern California Mahlers lives that he doesn't get much winter sun. We get it from sun up to sun down /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif with some rainy days and a handful of foggy days. )

I'm deep in a canyon on the east side of the Santa Cruz Mountains - so from about November through March the sun only pokes over the top of the mountains for a couple of hours a day. In town, people in my neighborhood are known as the Mole People...

Mrwurm · Sep 10, 2004

Well, seeing as this has turned into an electrical hookup discussion, can someone explain the following ?

At my home there are three wires running from the pole to my house. The two hot wires run to a transformer that feeds my house (only my house). The neutral runs to the pole and just sort of ends there. There is a smaller wire that runs down the pole and disappears underground. This wire is approximately 8 gauge with shielding.

So, what happens to the neutral at the pole ?

(My 200 amp breaker box is also grounded to a ground rod just below the box)

have_blue · Sep 10, 2004

( url=http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_astorm9+shtml/090853.shtml?]http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_astorm9+shtml/090853.shtml?[/url]
)

Here's mine http://www.weatherunderground.com/tropical

Click on "Computer Models" for the the latest projections.

Soundguy · Sep 10, 2004

( I always test it before-hand on a known hot wire)

Yep.. I have about 6 voms.. of varying size and complexity. Everything from a little analog job for things that need a meter swing.. like to see a cap charging.. up to a nice freq counting all the bells'n whistles.. computer hook-upable.. meter. with thermometer.. duty cycle measuring.. etc. wave/bar graph.. data hold.. etc.

Even after I killed the breaker, and the outside disconnect ( pull and flip switch ) I still put the meter on the wires at the pressure switch before I touched them... just a -good - habit as you point out.

I just added the jumper/wire box at my well pump. i ran my wire over from the pressure switch and left it coiled in the jumper box. When I hook up the genny, I'll hook to that connection, and leave the house isolated.. but with the breakers off just in case.

Soundguy

Soundguy · Sep 10, 2004

( Does anyone know of any smaller pto generators )

Northern also sells a 7.kkw pto genny...

Soundguy

rcmike · Sep 10, 2004

Thanks KiotiJohn and Soundguy. I actually looked at the Northern Tool catalog and saw the larger ones at the top of the page but missed the smaller one. I'll have to check into them.

Inspector507 · Sep 10, 2004

Jerry,
The neutral is attached to that wire that disappears underground. It is the ground for the pole/transformer, commonly called a butt wrap, because it's wrapped in circles on the bottom or butt of the pole.

mahlers · Sep 10, 2004

Thanks for that info - I thought that was how they did it, but didn't know for sure. So the neutral really is just a very good ground. I had a dilemma a while ago where two-wire 240 volts were run to an outbuilding, but they didn't run neutral line or a ground. It was about a 700' run, and I didn't want to have to run a neutral all the way back to main box, so I tried to make my own neutral with a series of ground rods. Needless to say, it never did work right, so I had to run that neutral all the way to the box. I thought that maybe there was some sort of magic going on in the transformer that made the neutral line work - but now I think that my ground was just not conductive enough to accept the current.

LeRoi · Sep 10, 2004

Jerry,
The wire that runs from your house to the transformer should also be connected to the transformer case, the ground wire on the pole, and one of the overhead wires that feed the transformer. The pole ground (in the shield) ties the high voltage neutral, also called the system neutral, on top of the transformer to the low voltage neutral (on the middle bushing on the side of the transformer to earth ground.
Your panel box is tied to ground (it's called the equipment ground) to protect you from getting shocked if there is a bad connection on one of the other wires.
I hope this answers your question without being unnecessarily technical. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

v8dave · Sep 10, 2004

( Thanks for that info . . . So the neutral really is just a very good ground. I had a dilemma a while ago . . . I didn't want to have to run a neutral all the way back to main box, so I tried to make my own neutral with a series of ground rods. . . but now I think that my ground was just not conductive enough to accept the current. )

The neutral is the return line in a 115 volt circuit, it shouldn't actually be needed in a 230 volt system unless the load is being split--which appears to be your case.

|--115 v--| --115 v--|
|-------220 v---------|

^ black wire
-----------^ white wire
------------------------^ another black or sometimes a red wire
Between the two 115 volt hot wires there is 230 volts.

It is dangerous to assume neutral is ground and vice versa. Neutral, the white wire, is "bonded" to an earth ground at one point in your home's system [and may be bonded to earth again in a shop or outbuilding]. The normal return is this white wire and the ground (a bare wire or green wire) is there for safety purposes.

Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor, GFCI, safety devices depend on this distinction. They look for ground return current and if they find any they trip the circuit open. Some work by measuring the current on the hot and return (neutral) lines, and if they aren't equal they trip the circuit open--because that means current is flowing some place it shouldn't be, like in the ground/earth circuit, and that current may be electrocuting you. When a system uses the earth intentionally as a return, besides being dangerous, it confuses all the safety devices.

Besides being against the National Electric Code, NEC, the reason it is dangerous to use the ground/earth as a return is the earth isn't a good conductor and sometimes the grounds aren't properly tied down If the system is returning juice through the ground/earth you might happen to be a better conductor for return electricity and it will pass through you. How might this happen? How about grabbing a pipe while standing on a damp floor, brushing up against a piece of equipment that has a loose ground, etc. Previous posts have a few fine bad examples.

Excuse the rant. Please--safety first! Live long, live to ride.

greenville7491 · Sep 10, 2004

To v8dave:

I was thinking that neutral should only be bonded to ground at one point only(main panel). If it was bonded at more than one point, ground loops would be created. Neutral and ground should not be bonded at the barn, current should only flow back in the neutral for a split voltage configuration ??????????