got my pto-generator today.

[JackIL]

I had mine done professionally for about $900. It consists of a simple transfer switch. See attached photo and second photo in reply. It does not have the capability to select particular circuits. I wanted to retain the flexibility to determine what to power and what not to power during an emergency. For me that could change depending on the time of year and the nature of the emergency outage.

My tractor powered generator is capable of 10 KW peak and 9.5 KW sustained power output. I have a long input cable and plug connector attached to the transfer switch so I can run the tractor either inside the garage with the doors open in case of very bad weather or outside otherwise. All worked well during a checkout run in 1999, but I haven't had to use it in an actual emergency since then.

JackIL

 

[JackIL]

Plug connector on long cable.

 

[mahlers]

Do you regularly exercise the generator? Just a thought - because they will sometimes lose their magnetic field and have to be re-energized if they're not run at least once a year. If you don't use the generator much, and when you go to fire it up you're not getting any voltage, that's probably what happened.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="blue"> Your safe choices are to snake a dozen or so heavy duty extension cords into your house to power what you need to power, or spend $1500 - $3000 or so to have your house professionally wired with a genset switch. The switch will allow you to plug your generator into the house and select what circuts you wish to power.
</font>

Mine is set up so that when I switch on the generator (mine is a tri-fuel hooked up to the natural gas line) I have to hit a cut over breaker that disconnects me from the utility company and then powers about 1/2 of the circuts of my house. We did a power outage survey and figured out which circuits we NEEDED to power in an extened power failure, then we calculated the current draw for those circuits and sized the generator to power the needed circuits. We utilize a lot of compact flourescent fixutures which are very efficient and found that we didn't need a large generator for lights, but things like the well pump and the refrigerator compressor motors required a lot.

I have 2 electrical boxes in my basement, one is the main breaker box, the other is the the generator breaker box. I had the whole thing installed by my electrical contractor because when I started looking at it I realized it was way beyond my modest wiring abilities. I think the cost, with the box, switches, labor, was about $800? This was about 5 years ago.

We had a 7 day outage a few years back and there were several cases of utility company linesmen being injured (fortunately none were killed) by homeowners who were backfeeding electricity from their generators back out into the electric grid. They eventually started going door to door asking to see how people had their generators hooked up so they could keep the linesmen from being fried!

 

[ByronBob]

My panel has the converter wired in it. Just trip the main breaker and slide the metal flange up and the 50amp auxillary will power the whole box. The load meters at the very top show your load.

Cost me $500 as they were wiring up the house and included the outside recepticle.

Hope the picture comes through. Not sure how to do this????

 

[kensfarm]

I def. wouldn't want to zap or fry a linesman.. "the young electrician did say disconnect the main"

I'm sure there are 10,000 + generators running right now in Florida. A lot of people will have to work w/ what they have.. and are probably backfeeding.. I wonder if the Florida linesmen test the wires for backfeed.. even though the lines are dead in a situation like this.

"sized the generator to power the needed circuits"

What was the size generator you end up buying?

There are 3 things you don't have to think twice about before touching them.. a live wire.. a live pto.. and a hot tempered woman! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Dargo]

I'm still shopping and actually am hoping to find a viable alternative to my crude, but effective, method. My problem is that I have 600 amp service that serves my main house, my pool house, my guest house, and my barn. I'd love to go to an automatic tri fuel unit, but the estimates I got to have that installed were approaching 20K!!! Anyone open to doing the job for considerably less or anyone with viable options; I'm open for suggestions. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I believe (it has been a half dozen years since buying it) that it is 10,000 watts but handles a surge of about 12,000?

I was surprised how little power is needed to light up my house because we have dozens of recessed light fixtures. But every one of them uses compact flourescents. Ditto the wall sconces. Some of them have bulbs in them that are nearly 10 years old and have not had to be replaced yet. If I used incandescent bulbs, I'd probably light fewer rooms and need a slighly larger generator (mabye 12,500 continuous).

 

[QueBota]

I'm not an electrician but as it was explained to me you have to pull the meter or have a switch to physically uncouple the power feed coming into your home if you want to safely backfeed. A 200 amp rated disconnect switch is usually more expensive than a transfer setup.

The main switch/breaker in your service panel only breaks the hot (black wire(s)) and not neutral (white) wire. The neutral wire is not switched and I believe it is unsafe to install a switch on the neutral. When you are backfeeding you are returning flow of electricity back onto the grid via the neutral wire. Neutral is generally considered safe and won't bite hard but lots of strange things can happen to make it dangerous.

You can check most utility company web sites for more specific dangers of backfeeding. I have done it in the past and most of my neighbors still do it, without pulling the meter of disconnecting from the grid.

Best thing to do is buy a transfer switch/transfer panel and install it. I bought all the hardware and did the rough wiring. I paid a licensed electrian to come out for two hours in the evening and do the final hook up to my main panel, load balance the generator and make sure everything looked good and was a least up to code. He made $100 for his trouble and I feel a lot better about using the generator when the power goes out and even the wife can handle switching over to the generator if necessary.

Dave

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="blue"> even the wife can handle switching over to the generator if necessary.
</font>

Dave that is an excellent point. I tried to make my system idiot proof so anyone who can read can fire up my unit and switch over to the generator.

My generator has laminated instructions on it to get it started up (it is key start and there is a battery tender to make sure the starter battery is charged). The instructions are very simple and even tell the person to turn on the natural gas line by turning the valve.

Similar instructions are located on the electical panels where there is really only one thing to do. Flip the cut over switch. But it is all spelled out so if my wife, or a babysitter, or a neighbor is there and I am out of town on business, then almost anyone can get the house back up and running pretty quickly.

Personally I did not see the need to install a automatic generator system that fires up if the power goes out and automatically switches off the power grid and over to the generator. That would be convenient, but I didn't think the added cost was justified.

 

[kensfarm]

That was a good explanation..

On the meter move.. the inspector did make the electrician rewire my old Federal breaker box w/ a separate neutral bar.. it didn't have one.. everything was fed into the ground bar.

I'm grand-fathered in.. the circuit box is also in the wall of a half bath.. def. not allowed.. plus the half bath is contained under a 2nd floor bedroom balcony(I rebuilt the entire balcony) that allowed heavy rain to drip down into the bathroom.

 

[SPIKER]

Soundguy:

glad you faird OK, even though some damage, (one chicken for the pot and the scratched ford /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif for the chicken and /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif for the ford.)

you can safely RUN a small gen set by pulling the main breaker true it does not disconnect the Neutral waire, but you're Netural wire is bonded to ground and no voltage can "Backflow" into the lines as the Neutral does not hook up to the tranfsormer anyway, only the 2 hot leads are there from the road to the house. there is a support wire for ground that is tied in as a cable support and that is grounded at the meter.

if you're meter base is not grounded then it is not installed right...

Best means is the disconnect switch and wired by a profesional. using the Drier plug can cause some problems as some of them do not have a 4 wire system, only have 2 hots and one ground wire. this is poor design to fun a gen set from, (for a few min it may be OK, but you also run the risk of over currenting the wire from the main panel to the drier plug if something shorts or over heats. the 50 amp drier plug will trip if the gen puts out enough power and the rest of the house requres that much..

this also leads to the (not everyone can run the generator senero too)

anyhow just my 2 cents worth.

MarkM /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[LeRoi]

I have a little info to add, not aimed specifically at anyone.
If you can afford a generator large enough to power your house, then you should be able to afford a transfer switch to do it safely.
Safety for you and the linemen working to restore power to you is worth a few dollars more.
Not properly grounding the generator and relying on the neutral to protect you is asking for trouble. If you have never run across a neutral wire that is energized with 120 volts or more, you haven't been working around electricity long enough. I have seen it all too often, even with the neutral grounded to the panel. One bad connection is all it takes.
Electricity bites with no warning /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[LarryRB]

please refer to the many posts after,, neutral wire can easily, (and has already done it here) zap a linesman,, To Rat, it may be legal in Calif, definitely not in this neighborhood. There is no one to my knowledge that is selling back electric from solar, water or other powered. All I know is when the ambulance showed up semi diagonally across from my house and went out to see what was up, it was a line man knocked down from the top of the pole and cause was the houese in front of that pole powering a generator through a dryer plug.. The big shot electrical hot shot showed about the time they loaded that guy for his trip and was screaming this wouldn't have happened if the meter was pulled,, This was during a particularly bad winter season, maybe 1998 or so.. I also agree that the electric company shouldn't have to send baby sitters one house at a time to check for these problems. they're already been out several days listening to the public ask to restore at least some power,, If we, ( at least in my neighborhood) followed some simple laws, it would be much easier and safer for all

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I know it is legal to "sell back" electricity to the power company in many states. We looked into it and found out that many states actually require the utility company to buy back electricity that you generate, but they typcially buy it from you (via a credit on your electric bill) at WHOLESALE rates and sell it to you at their RETAIL rates.

I think the question is how do they require you to wire your house to buy back your electricity? And are there periods, like during service failures, when you would be required to disconnect? I would have to presume that the power company would have specific requirements to protect their employees from electrical shock.

I also agree with several people that if you can afford a generator, then you can afford to safely wire it. Even a small and inexpensive generator is a major safety hazard to a linesman. I don't know if there are laws everywhere that regulate how a generator is hooked up to prevent backfeeding the power grid, but there should be.

To nobody in particiular but to everyone: Just like I am responsible if my dog gets out of my yard and bites you, I am equally responsible if my power gets out of my system and shocks you. I find that many times people today try to lay off blame for their own actions onto other people or onto events. The reality is that we must accept the responsibilty for our individual actions.

 

[shvl73]

Here's a pic of the switch I installed.

 

[mahlers]

In sunny (and energy deprived) California, the utility companies allow you to pump electricity straight back into the power lines via approved devices (approved for 'net metering'). These systems are really expensive, so I'll make the assumption that they have mechanisms in place to disconnect when the service power supply is interrupted. The nice thing about these setups is that they run through your existing meter - when you're sending electricity back into the grid, your meter runs backwards. So, you get paid the full retail rate for electricity that you sell back to the utility - until your net usage for the year hits zero. After you've broken even on energy usage, they might only need to pay you the wholesale rate.

I wanted to do a net-metering system for a small hydro system, but unfortunately CA won't approve anything other than solar and wind. I've got lots of water flowing, but little sun during the winter, so there went that plan.

 

[mahlers]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If you have never run across a neutral wire that is energized with 120 volts or more, you haven't been working around electricity long enough. I have seen it all too often, even with the neutral grounded to the panel. One bad connection is all it takes.
Electricity bites with no warning /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif )</font>

Tell me about it - my place was wired by someone who was a complete electrical ******. One building was showing +60V AC from both the hot and the neutral leads - a floating ground that took me hours and hours to find. Then, I found that the neutral was connected to the ground, which in turn was 'grounded' to my propane gas line. I'm amazed that the place never blew sky-high. I found it totally by accident when I was doing some work and my bare arm was resting against the propane line - and I got jolted really good.

 

[_RaT_]

Actually, electricity is often misunderstood. Having voltages on a wire be it a hot or neutral are not unusual even when there should be no voltage present. The longer the wire, the easy to get induced voltages. Having a ground wire going to a gas line is often code. They are not grounding to the propane, they are grounding the propane line. Frequently neutral and ground tie together at the meter box. They are not the same thing however. Neutral can be as deadly as a hot wire, ground would only be deadly when there is a dead short and the ground is floating and you happen to be holding the hot end of the ground while being grounded. Ground should never carry current other then when a problem is present. Neutral should never be switched but that does not mean a white wire is not switched providing it is identified as a hot wire. In other words, don't assume because it is white it is neutral or not capable of hurting you.

We have eNet metering with PG&E here in Northern California. The way it works is with a special meter, it is digital, does not spin backwards but rather alternates the display between KW used, KW generated, as well as other info. It works something like this. From about 1:00PM to 6:00PM, you get extra payback for the power you generate BUT, you also get charged more then the typical customer if you use more then you generate during those times. We have 25 panels on a house we have which at peak time generate about 3000 watts of power. The panels put out DC, that is converted to AC 120V and synch'd to the power company. To give you an idea just how effective they are, the folks in the house payed $75 for the YEAR in electrical costs to PG&E. Not bad. The rebate incentive is drying up so it will be less beneficial monetarily to use solar. (My understanding anyway) For more info check out solardepot.com

 

[Soundguy]

Boy.. lots of posts.

I'll try to answer all the questions that were posed to me.

I did spend the money to get a decent sized genny. I didn't spend the money for a load transfer switch, as I've already been informed by the wife that we are moving within 5 years, and the genny goes with us to the new house, that will have the built in load xfer switch.

I plan on powering the well directly with a short fat jumper cable from the gennies 220 outlet directly over to the pressure switch, disconnecting the house line. For added safety, I'll trip the well breaker as well.

I will then bring in a HD extension cord to run my fridge and small freezer, and then have one more extension cord for a tv.

The genny has two seperate 120v 3 terminal circuits with 20a breakers.. a 30a 12v 3prong twist lock circuit.. and then the big 4 prong 120/240 50 amp plug. My fridge/freezer, well, and tv will be greatly under the 12k rating / 13k surge of the genny.

A neighbor has an old 10k genny and he sucesfully powered up his ac with it...I realize the startup current on that could be high.. but his service panel only had a 20a breaker for it.

In any case.. I don't need the ac powered up.. though I think I could.. as long as the well didn't kick on.

I thought about the house backfeed via the well line, instead of the drier plug. I do think the main breaker would isolate the outgoing line fine... however.. I'm simply not taking any chances. It would be a bad time to find out that squareD had sold me a bad main breaker!

Also.. I'm not to concerned about refueling the genny, as I won't be near it.. the 'fuel tank' for the genny, is up on the tractor.

Yes.. the genny does have a ground tab on it, that I'll clamp onto a piece of rebar and hammer into the ground right at the genny, in addition to hooking up the neutral / ground connection at my well just to be on the safe side

Incedentally.. thae manual for the genny states that ground and neutral are wired together on the genny... so that automatically makes a few choices for you on hookup when thinking about the 4 wire / 3 wire issues.

Soundguy