Glow plug questions

[handirifle]

At 70-80 deg. F. you should not need to use any glow plug heat. Above 40 Deg. F. there should be enough compression heat to start the engine. Going by my engine, a plug will draw about 5 amps cold and as it heats up the current will drop to 1.5 amps each. You should also see the tip glow?

This may come as a shock; the glow plugs are always ON. The heat from the last combustion cycle will keep the plugs glowing all the time and the plug tip should be hot enough to burn any soot off. Shock # 2, the engine is not a true Diesel but a Hot Bulb engine, the hot Bulb being the glow plug.

Hot bulb engine - Hot bulb pseudo diesel development

OK fine, but the fact remains, if I don't use glow plug, it doesn't start. The odd thing here, it it seemed to start (or not start) kinda sudden. It's like one day it decided to make my life difficult by being hard to start.

With the blowby I get, it's most likely compression the culprit, and since I don't own a diesel (true or not) compression tester, I can't find it out just yet. If it IS compression, I cannot fix that for some time, due to funds. Maybe this winter I'll dig up enough cash somewhere for a rebuild and redoing the lines like I hoped.

 

[Transit]

OK fine, but the fact remains, if I don't use glow plug, it doesn't start. The odd thing here, it it seemed to start (or not start) kinda sudden. It's like one day it decided to make my life difficult by being hard to start.

Yes, a compression problem could be costly, rings, sleeve, and valves. However from what you say, "starts kinda suddenly" I would lean toward a fuel delivery issue, injectors and pump. What is the injector pump oil like? Has the oil ever been changed? If not, you may need to change the oil, you may need to de-gum first. It is not uncommon for plungers to stick or the rack/fly weights to bind. Some injector pumps have a dipstick to set the oil level and others use a side bolt to set the oil level, and others use engine oil for liberation.

 

[handirifle]

Transit
I have to admit you got me there. Will have to do some research on that one. As I said in the first post, I am totally new to diesels, I had no idea the fuel injector pump had it's own lube system.

Guess that answers the "whether or not I changed it question" too huh?

 

[lambs]

Per the I&T manual, glow plug internal resistance is .23 ohms.

I always use the GPs to start the tractor, unless I know the engine is good and hot. It needs them. It needs about 20 seconds of it even on a warm day if the engine is cold. More on this below.

The GPs should not stay on all the time. They are on when you turn your ignition switch to the left, and they are on while cranking. They are not on when the engine is running unless you turn the switch back to the left to give it a little extra heat right after it starts. This clears up any roughness in the idle almost instantly.

If your dash lights are working, you should see one light up to indicate when the GPs are drawing current. It's the light at the bottom of the cluster, in the center of the bottom row if it's like mine. If it's glowing when the engine is running with the ignition key in the run position, something is wrong.

Here's how I checked my GPs. Take one out of the engine, lay it across a piece of steel so the threads of the plug are resting on the steel (don't let the business end of the GP touch anything). Then hook up the positive lead of a battery charger to the top of the GP where the wire would be and the negative lead to the steel. Then plug in the battery charger. You should be getting a bright orange glow in about 10 seconds. This also told me that the first 10 seconds of turning that ignition key did nothing to help start that diesel! So give it 20 seconds of GP before you crank it and it will be much happier. If it's down to 20 degrees or so, I've been known to give it a minute and a half. But you can also put a cheap heat lamp under the block for a couple hours and notice a real difference in the winter. MF makes a block heater for it that replaces one of the casting plugs. I've never bothered to try one though. And upper radiator hose heaters don't really fit in the hose without alteration.

Injector pump oil is the same oil as the engine. It takes about 6-8 ounces (200 cc's) to fill the reservoir. The drain plug is the little plug screwed into the bottom left side of the pump right behind the fuel line leading into the fuel filter housing. To fill the reservoir, you need to loosen and swing down or remove the rectangular plate on the side of the fuel pump, just above the fuel filter. If you put in too much oil, it just drains into the engine block oil pan, so no worries there. It's pretty hard to do this service since the parts are so close to each other. Be patient and take your time. I put the oil in mine with a turkey baster.

There should be a fuel cutoff built into the top of the fuel filter housing. But you've probably already changed the filter by now and found it.

If you'd like a pdf of an owner's manual, let me know. I think I have one from the Allis Chalmers version of this tractor that I'd be glad to share. It's virtually identical to the MF.

 

[Willl]

I had no idea the fuel injector pump had it's own lube system

Not all injector pumps are the same. Best to learn your setup.

The Mf in question 'appears' to have an oil sump and requires periodical level checks.

Others are fed by engine oil pump or they use the diesel fuel itself as a lube.

 

[handirifle]

You guys are great. Lambs, yes I would like the PDF file. Send it to gpalewis@live.com if you would. I never thought they stayed on all the time, and I THINK the earlier poster meant they got hot from the compression, not necessarily they were powered.

My GP light only comes on when the Ign is to the left as described.

And NO I haven't changed the filter cause I didn't find the cutoff, but will look again. Decided there had to ba a better way than soaking everything with diesel fuel.
That PDF will really help. Thanks.

Willl
Thanks, will have to investigate mine further.

 

[irvingj]

I agree with GP use, even when ambient temps are warm; my GC2310 likes to have some GP use all the time, unless, as stated, it's already been used and is fully warmed up. When it's cold, yes, up to a minute or so, perhaps with a rest in between "shots."

I did get the MF block heater; it fit like a glove and works very well... but it weren't cheap!

Wow- you folks have a light for GP use? My ol' Peugeot had that, so does my Jetta... but not the 2310!

 

[ray66v]

I agree with GP use, even when ambient temps are warm; my GC2310 likes to have some GP use all the time, unless, as stated, it's already been used and is fully warmed up.

Nothing wrong with using glow plugs every single time you start the engine, if you want.

However, working from a diagnostic stand point, if you can't fairly easily start a diesel engine, when the air temp is high, without using glow plugs, it is a sign that something is not right.

That is not to say it won't take more cranking time, but it should not take long.

My 2310 would start right now with about 5 seconds of cranking, if I do not use the glow plugs.

On the other hand, the Mittsubishi engine in my lawn mower, would crank for probably 20 seconds, or more, before reluctantly coming to life. I know why, has 4000 hours on it.

 

[dcyrilc]

Nothing wrong with using glow plugs every single time you start the engine, if you want.

However, working from a diagnostic stand point, if you can't fairly easily start a diesel engine, when the air temp is high, without using glow plugs, it is a sign that something is not right.

That is not to say it won't take more cranking time, but it should not take long.

My 2310 would start right now with about 5 seconds of cranking, if I do not use the glow plugs.

On the other hand, the Mittsubishi engine in my lawn mower, would crank for probably 20 seconds, or more, before reluctantly coming to life. I know why, has 4000 hours on it.

I find this discusion on GPs interesting. I have to wonder how much the cranking time has to do with design though. My 2240 doesn't have GPs and has never need more than 2-3 sec of cranking with a good battery. Oh, and it has over 8K hours on it. I have had it take longer when the batteries were low.

 

[CubMon]

This Yanmar system has a timer....you wait for the glow plugs or you don't start. You can twist the key all you want but the timer is what says OK.

 

[lambs]

Handirifle,
File sent. Check your email.

One other thought on the GP's. Mine will start without them in warm weather, but it takes longer. I have no idea how many hours are on mine (it shows 300, but I assume it had a broken tach cable at some point) and thought it was just a "cold" engine. But some diesels don't have GP's at all. They use ether to help with combustion when it's cold. Don't let anyone tell you to just squirt a little ether into the air intake when it's cold. Ether and glow plugs don't mix.

My technique for a cold engine is glow plugs for 20 seconds, open the throttle valve, crack the throttle open about a third, and crank it.

 

[handirifle]

Lambs
Thanks, got the email and replied.

My tractor started fine today. I used 35 seconds on the glow plugs, and gave it full throttle (as per ray66v's suggestion), and she cranked about 4-5 seconds and started right up. I think it might be all things combined.

REALLY appreciate the things I have learned from you guys.

 

[dcyrilc]

Lambs
Thanks, got the email and replied.

My tractor started fine today. I used 35 seconds on the glow plugs, and gave it full throttle (as per ray66v's suggestion), and she cranked about 4-5 seconds and started right up. I think it might be all things combined.

REALLY appreciate the things I have learned from you guys.

Sounds like a good thing. Let us know if the repeat performance is just as good. Could be that you just weren't giving it long enough on the GP.

 

[handirifle]

I think it might be that and the throttle position as well. My old motorcycle is very picky about how it starts, no suprise an old tractor would be too.

 

[ray66v]

My tractor started fine today.

This bolsters my argument that all machines, and computers, are female.

 

[dcyrilc]

This bolsters my argument that all machines, and computers, are female.

I have to agree with that one.:thumbsup:

 

[handirifle]

Yep, she is tempermental!!!

 

[lambs]

Glad to know it's doing better!

I don't think I'd recommend starting one at full throttle. I'm sure it works, but I would be a little concerned about oil pressure being too low for that much rpm. Especially if the oil is cold and therefore taking a bit long to get to the bearings. Just a thought. We never started them at WOT on the farm when I was growing up. I can only assume that was the reason though.

 

[ray66v]

I don't think I'd recommend starting one at full throttle.

I agree.

Now that you know it will start: While your cranking, open the throttle all the way for a second, and then ****** it slowly. That way when it fires, your already pulling the throttle down. Mine is usually at about 1/4 throttle when it lights.

If it does not fire the first time, repeat the process.

Hopefully, when you get the timing figured out, it will start a much lower rpm then full throttle.

 

[handirifle]

Maybe I should explain. It STARTS at full throttle position, but no way would I let the engine rev to that level. As soon as it starts sputtering on it's own I let off the gas, never looked but I doubt it gets over 1,000rpm, if that much, on initial startup.

I picked up a diesel compression tester today, but got to thinking, and the manual Lambs sent me, doesn't say, but where do you check compression AT? On a gas engine I pull the plugs....do I pull the injectors? How do I keep it from starting? Crank it with fuel shut off pulled out? Soooo much to learn here.