General "getting started" questions about building a barn

[Dr_Zinj]

astrohip:

You might want to check with the building inspector on that rain cistern system. Might not be an issue in Texas, but plenty of municipalities in California have all kinds of eco-freak regulations about capturing and holding rain water.

 

[astrohip]

No issue in Texas. And to double-dip the "no issue", in Texas if you're not in a city, you are governed by counties, which have almost no regs. We barely have building codes (I'm not saying that's good or bad, just commenting). And the only water regulations I'm aware of is the EPA wetlands rules, which is of course Fed, not state.

 

[John Dougherty]

Astrohip, I'm with you on the shop. As mentioned by others, planning is really the key here. When I built my last shop (24x40) I added an attached carport (10x40). The roof trusses just extended over the port. I wish that I had made that part 12' wide as I park my pickup under it and opening the doors one has to be a little careful. Didn't think of that! I originally had considered a metal building, but thought better of it. The reason for that is I knew I wanted a finished interior (and well insulated). As a result, I concluded it would be cheaper in the end to go with a wood framed building. I like your thinking on the second tier floor for storage for part of it. I have been to Houston and minus your humidity we have very hot weather here in Northern California. I used 2x6 wall construction and it didn't really cost that much more than 2x4. Obviously, I got more insulation in the walls and the overhead is R30. With a swamp cooler (evaporative) I can keep it pretty comfortable. With a 200amp sub-panel I was able to run many 20amp circuits because I had the space in the box. I also had lots of panel space for welder, compressor, etc. circuits even if you don't plan on having 200a, you still have the panel room for expansion. Outside outlets are a must and I wish that I had put a 240v/50amp plug outside. I ducted airlines from my compressor using 'PEX' water lines for remote air connections. They will handle 600psi with no connections like PVC pipe would. Water is a must, even if it is just for washing up. A toilet is something I wish that I had included as the nearest one is 150' away at the house. I have a roll-up door that is only 10' wide by 8' high, but in my case serves me well. It's a chain drive and was only about $650. I pre-wired for stereo and speakers. The walls are 9' and the interior pitch of the ceiling is a 5/12. This gives me plenty of room to flip materials over w/o hitting the lights. I put in a ceiling fan (like a house fan) to bring the heat down in the winter and circulate the conditioned air in the summer. I have a wood stove. I have a dedicated room to store my tools (left over from being a general contractor) and an office. The office has internet connection and what you would find in any office. One advantage to this is I am able to secure this space against theft (gun safe, etc.) and keep out airbourne contamination from welding, wood and grinding. I didn't want too many shelves in the main space. I like having my shop tools on casters as I can easily transition from wood work to metal work. This gives me maximum flexibility considering the space. My welding table (4x8) is on casters as well. I have a rolling 6x6 verticle canvas covered tarp that I use when I need to grind or cut metal so sparks don't get into trouble. I added a couple of rainbird spinklers to the top of the roof as well. I always advise anyone thinking of doing a shop to add at least two future conduits to their panel that lead to the outside. It's really hard to anticipate what you will want to do in the future and it's so much easier now. An example is I added a ground mount electric solar system a couple of years after building the shop. It would have been so handy to have those conduits in place and cheaper. I didn't follow my own advice. Who knew? Anyway, my intent isn't to brag about what I have, but to give you some food for thought. It's funny how it works. You think about what you need and as time goes by you want more because it's such a great space. If you have planned for the changes it's a lot easier to do. There is nothing wrong with waiting to do things later when you have the coin, but a lot easier if you have made provisions for it. Oh, and don't scrimp on the concrete apron outside your shop. Also, make sure you have an understanding with your concrete contractor that you expect a level and uniform floor. Don't hire the cheapest guy unless you are sure you will get that floor. You will have to live with it. Good luck and I hope that I have given you some ideas!

 

[astrohip]

REALLY good feedback! The more I read here (and think about it), the more I realize keeping shelving in the main shop to a minimum helps in cleanup.

You mention air lines. Where is your compressor, inside or outside? Does the noise become an issue? I've thought about putting a compressor and water heater in their own little framed in space maybe.

What would you do if you had 240v outside? (I assume you have it inside).

And last, you have wood frame on a concrete slab? So everything, joists & all, is simply framed like a house? (except 2x6) How thick is your slab, and does that work for you?

Again, great ideas! Thanks.

 

[John Dougherty]

Astrohip,
Yeah, it's on a 4" slab. I have built in Texas back in the 80's when we had no work here. I am familiar with your regulations or lack of them. That's the good and the bad my friend. My compressor is in that room that I discribed as my 'office'. I'm not in it when it is running. Like I said, it's hard to anticipate what you will want. There's no problem though, since if the compressor is running I'm in the main work area. As far as the 240v goes, I have a decent concrete apron in front of the building. This is key, because in good weather you will want to be outside doing your welding, for instance. If I had such an outlet outside I wouldn't have to use an extention cord which is quite massive. Just more convenient. Make sure that floor is FLAT.

 

[astrohip]

Astrohip,
Yeah, it's on a 4" slab.<snip> Make sure that floor is FLAT.

Are you happy with 4"? Any issues? Do you have any kind of drain in your slab?

Noted on the flat slab. VIP!

 

[John Dougherty]

The four inch is fine. You do need to have a footing that is about 12x12" around the perimeter. If you like, contact me at 530.921.3220 and I will send you a text msg w/ a photo of the shop. Anything I can do to help you I will. Loved the people I met in Texas.

 

[PhysAssist]

I built a tin shed in 2013 with 14' walls. For the ceiling, I put on the same tin as the walls have, and then I had fiberglass insulation blown in to an R42 factor.

It's not any hotter inside than it is outside. As a bonus, it is also quieter on windy or rainy days.

Hi AstroHip,

We're in the rust/snobelt of upstate NY, and even when it was below 0 this winter, and above 90 last summer, our wood-framed, metal clad barn was respectively warmer and cooler than the ambient air temps, even with [or because of] soffit vents and a ridge-vent coupled with a thin [1/2"] fiberglass under-roof insulation layer and vapor-barrier [the vapor-barrier was sealed with tape throughout and faces the open inside of the barn.

Adding a fan or kerosene heater makes the inside even more apparently different [either way] from the outside.

I would have like to have insulated my slab underneath with rigid foam, but I let $$ and our concrete guy talk me out of it- wish I'd more $ and stuck to my guns there- freezing my behind off laying under my truck this winter taught me that.

Good Luck,
Thomas

PS: Reading along further into the thread a couple of other things came to mind:

The longer you can make your overhangs [within reason and $$], especially on the sunny side, but also in general, the less sun will beat on the walls and into the windows, and the less weather will hit the walls.

Also think about going on and looking here: Pole Barn Kits and Pole Buildings even though I didn't end up soing with them for our barn, I learned a ton from their site.

 

[astrohip]

Also think about going on and looking here: Pole Barn Kits and Pole Buildings even though I didn't end up soing with them for our barn, I learned a ton from their site.

Quite a site! Lots to read... thanks

 

[John Dougherty]

Quite a site! Lots to read... thanks

Good luck my friend. Let me know if I can help you in anyway.

 

[PhysAssist]

Quite a site! Lots to read... thanks

No worries- I'm still finishing my barn project: planning started in 8/2012, the main structure was laid out and built [by "professionals"] in 12/2012, the concrete floor slab poured in 10/2013, and for the past year we have used it to assess and decide what we need for use and storage, and now we're trying to finalize interior storage, and hopefully soon afterwards the electrical and lighting.

Our project has been delayed by illness, injury, weather, and now most recently by the need to replace our house roof [BTW, we're going with a metal roof on our log house to reduce summer cooling costs by reflecting, rather than absorbing, infrared energy from the sun.]

Beat of luck!
Thomas

PS: Shirley at Hansen Pole Barns was awesome, continuing to help us even after she knew we were going elsewhere for our materials.

 

[John Dougherty]

astrohip:

You might want to check with the building inspector on that rain cistern system. Might not be an issue in Texas, but plenty of municipalities in California have all kinds of eco-freak regulations about capturing and holding rain water.

Dr Z, I was caught by surprise on that as well. I did put in a catch system (currently 8k gals), but I did check out the California Water Act of 2012. It basically states that one can capture all of the water they want from their roof top. Surface water, not so much. Texas, to my knowledge, actually encourages the capturing of rain water. They have ponds (called tanks in Texas) for that purpose. Oregon believe it or not, forbids the retention of any rain water that lands on your property whether it comes from the roof or anywhere else. Apparently, that belongs to the STATE. Go figure. My guess is at some point I will be taxed on the Sun as it strikes my solar panels. Stranger things have happened.

 

[John Dougherty]

A couple pictures of my building, 40' x 60' steel clear span Sharron Steel Bldgs. 26 gage galvalume sheeting. Built 1991, 14' side walls 3-12 pitch 4' over hang 1.5' on gable ends. One exterior man door, one 12' x 12' garage door, one 14' X 12' slider door. Center partition wall with steel interior man door, steel galvanize purlins and girts Non expandable end walls, middle columns are 6 gage with a 18" section, single sided weld, 40' X 30' heated with 4.0" reinforced concrete with wire and 1.0 insulation board and 40' X 30' not heated with gravel floor, 6" x 72" rolled insulation with reinforced poly in heated side, 2" in non heated side, 100,000 BTU Reznor, heater, original gutters gone due to ice. 200 amp dedicated service all electrics in conduit. Water is piggy backed from my home. Cost in 1991 dollars $40K. High pressure sodium lights 400 watts $800 used, interior walls are steel roof decking 22 gage approx. $900. Plus a lot of other incidentals and toys.

One of your questions concerned hanging shelves and or any thing from the interior walls of a steel build. The roof decking could not have been a better fit for my interior walls. I put down another base angle and the roof decking is screwed between the middle girt and the new bottom base angle, they are 8' and 9' high respectively. I painted it bright white when initially installed but 24 years later it is starting to show it's age. I have done a lot of arcing and sparking inside my building. I use self drilling screws to attach anything to the walls. .31 hex. The green shelving is attached to the walls with the SD screws. The bottom edge of the shelving just catches the 10 block for vertical support. I can sweep under all of the shelving. Non of the shelving is sitting on the floor. Everything else show on the walls is fully supported by the roof decking, the bottom base angle and the middle girt. I have been buying the garden hose brackets from HF cutting them in half and screwing them to the walls the with the SD screws. They make excellent hooks. I have a one block exposure, 10" block, on a separate footer, between the column piers. The concrete floor on the heated side is also pined to that block. Maybe this will give you some ideas. Later.View attachment 415881View attachment 415882View attachment 415883View attachment 415884View attachment 415885View attachment 415886View attachment 415887

That is humbling. VERY NICE!

 

[John Dougherty]

I have to ask...in the last picture, are you dehumidifying the firewood?

 

[oldtimer 66]

John Dougherty, on the last picture it was the only inside picture I had of the cold side of my building. Yes that is where I store my firewood for the following heating season. I would rather have it inside under cover versus outside and that is partly because I have the extra room to do it. It does dry the wood to a certain point because of the gravel floor but after that it just how do you say this, It maintains the same humidity as that part of the building. It is definitely better than stacking it outside and covering it with a tarp and thanks very much for you comment on my building.

 

[John Dougherty]

John Dougherty, on the last picture it was the only inside picture I had of the cold side of my building. Yes that is where I store my firewood for the following heating season. I would rather have it inside under cover versus outside and that is partly because I have the extra room to do it. It does dry the wood to a certain point because of the gravel floor but after that it just how do you say this, It maintains the same humidity as that part of the building. It is definitely better than stacking it outside and covering it with a tarp and thanks very much for you comment on my building.

Oldtimer 66,
Is that a sliding door in front of the pickup? Your lights are an interesting choice. They couldn't have been cheap to purchase. I assume they are coupled with a ballast and if so, what voltage are you using for them. That green tractor is a nice choice for the color of your shop. I'm afraid my red tractor would clash with it. These things are important. Ha!
John

 

[Wagtail]

Regarding metal versus wood construction, I would have thought that metal would be the way to go these days. It's practically standard here in Oz.

Especially when it comes to temperature/environmental extremes. Wood, unless maintained, deteriorates under wind/rain/UV rays/white ants, etc... whereas metal is a longer term investment.

 

[John Dougherty]

Regarding metal versus wood construction, I would have thought that metal would be the way to go these days. It's practically standard here in Oz.

Especially when it comes to temperature/environmental extremes. Wood, unless maintained, deteriorates under wind/rain/UV rays/white ants, etc... whereas metal is a longer term investment.

Wagtail, good to hear from our friends down under. I have stucco on my shop. More money? Possibly, but no install, no mats, no paint. Plus I get an R-5 insulation value from the foam underneath. I think that Hardy plank actually came from Australia if not mistaken. Good product to be sure. For our friends not familiar with Hardy, it is basically a concrete siding which is very good, indeed. Thanks.

 

[Wagtail]

"Hardy" plank, eh? That's the first I've heard of it, but that's not saying much from me.

It reminds me of the days of 'fibro' sheeting which was corrugated or flat pressed cladding made from asbestos. Heck, there are houses here built [1950's 'til they banned it] from the stuff!

 

[oldtimer 66]

John Dougherty the lights are 400 watt multiple voltage I wired them for 120 volt they were all used lights high pressure sodium I paid from $100 for 5 and just recently $150 for 2 the new price maybe $400 the bulb lumens 45k to 50k and the bulb life is 25k hours difficult to find in the lower voltage all sealed no mice chewing the wires the garage door is on the left heated side and the slider is on the right side of the building yes I have worked on some of those red tractors it is difficult but I did it not many around this area