Future Land Clearing Project

johnnyringo · Mar 10, 2006

I recently acquired 80 acres of unimproved timberland. With this purchase and a tractor it has pretty much left me with little cash to make improvements to the land (i.e. partial clearing,ponds,fence). I need cash flow!!! I was thinking about selling the timber and the highest offer came in at $19,000 and that would go a long ways for what I'm wanting to do.

My question is about logging and clearing land afterwards. I have always been told that the only thing that will take stumps out after logging are excavators and that they are very pricey to hire. I want to clear approximately 35 acres in patches scattered here and there and leave the rest but don't want to be stuck with a stump farm. Also it's not that I really want to get rid of the trees it's just that it would be several years out before I could do anything with the land without this cash.

I guess I didn't ask a direct question but I think you get the idea. I have heard horror stories about people having their place logged off and an trying to avoid that. Any comments and guidance are greatly appreciated.

By the way I love this site. The projects forum has given me a ton of ideas for my property. I look forward to posting pictures of my property when I get started.

ScottAR · Mar 10, 2006

You need an independent forester with a forestry plan for your property. They can be as involved as much or little as you want. Read that as they can handle the entire sale or just make out the plan.

Since they would be working for you, their best interest is your land and any future logging that will be done.

This is the best way to insure a good clean job with little to no unsightly mess left behind.

Forestry Forum has lots of good ideas and people. There's a lot to take in and think about.

teg · Mar 10, 2006

You need to get a forester out there to know what you really have. I don't know where or what type of trees we are talking about but that sounds low for 35 acres. A forester can mark the trees and get a count as to how many board feet you are selling.

rico304 · Mar 10, 2006

You must first make sure you are dealing with a person that has a solid reputation in the business. That should be easy enough to do by contacting your local warden or ranger.
You don't have to do a clear cut either. I had selective cut done to my property. That means they cut roads into the woods, and they have machines that can reach in and get trees from approx. 15 feet into the woods around them.
Depending on the makeup and other factors, you can aske them to clear stumps as well. Some will, others won't. It does take from your earnings though. You can have branches hauled back to a central location and they can burn/chip them. In my case, they used the branches to fill in where the muddy wet areas were for traction for the skidder. I had certain areas stumped, certain areas with debris hauled away, and other areas just cut and left as is. I also marked areas I wanted them to cut, and (in a different color) areas that I wanted them to leave alone. I had the owner walk me around other sites similiar to mine that he had just cut. That way I got an idea what I wanted to have them do on my property. I would suggest against clear cut. I think that damages the land and it never seems to grow back properly unless you do a lot of work planting.

dmccarty · Mar 10, 2006

Get a forester to work for you.

Get a forester to work for you.

Get a forester to work for you.

You need a timber cruise. This is an inventory of ALL of the marketable trees on your land. They should break into down so that you know how many thousand board feet of each specie you own. Mine had it broken down by the tree diameter as well.

The forester works for YOU. Like a real estate agent.

Check your state's department of forestry to see if they have a book on Timbering Best Management Practices(BMP). When you sell the timber you should have a closing just like buying/selling a house. As part of the contract the timber buyer agrees to the BMP and any other issues you want.

NC state also has a 800 number that provides the market value of timber from the previous quarter.

We sold our timber by seal bid auction. The forester sends out the cruise information as well as any limitations/requirements you have to buyers. They show up at the sale time and put in their bids. Higest bid wins.

You pay taxes on the timber sale based on your origional basis. See the timbertax website at Purdue for more info or get a CPA that knows this area of tax law. Timber Tax website.

I did not have the loggers clean up. They had to place the decking operation in specific location(s). I figured that their business it to cut trees not clean stumps and I wanted to maximize our cash at that time. I can clean up later. I have pushed most of the slash into piles. After my parents build a house I think we will pay to have a tub grinder come in and make a pile of chips.

I think the logging business has alot of con artists. I have read of too many horror stories. Interview a couple foresters and pick the one you like. I was talking with a lady at work who had inherited some land along with other family members. A logger knocked on her sisters door and offered to buy the timber for $x. He contacted my friend who was iffy on selling but the logger offered her twice as much money as her sister. He also said he would reseed the land as well.

I doubt he paid anywhere near what the timber was worth to my friend but it was twice what her sister received. And you don't reseed timber you replant. I'm sure he did not replant he just let momma nature do its thing.

Be danged careful about timbering your land. There are some real bad sharks looking for your trees.

Later,
Dan

Highbeam · Mar 10, 2006

I'll try a different angle to add to and not detract from the others.

A trackhoe/excavator is the best tool to remove, stack, and burn stumps. On a per hour basis they are no more expensive than a dozer and they are more effective and leave less damage to the land. A dozer is how stumping was done, also dynamite, for a long time so there are other options. The trackhoe is the best tool and in the end, the cheapest tool for cleanup of logging debris including stumps.

The logger is there to log. He is not a landscaper. You can expect him to take the logs and leave the rest unless you pay him extra to spend extra time cleaning up and stumping.

I had a logger come and log about 3 acres of land. He knew from the start that all stumps and slash would be dug up and burnt so he harvested the trees in a different manner. Basicly he didn't cut any trees down he plucked them all out and then bucked out the logs.

In my area land is cleared for 2000$ per acre. If, while clearing they harvest timber, the value of the timber counts towards the 2000$ per acre. In my case, I had to throw some money in the pot to square up with the logger since the harvested timber value was not high enough to cover the bill.

2000$ per acre times your desired 35 acres is 70,000$. You will not get your 35 acres of land cleared if the timber is only worth 19000$. Instead, you will end up with 10 acres cleared and 70 acres of stumpfield.

You're strapped for cash. If you want to build a home in the clearing then make the land clearing part of the construction loan and save the trees in other areas. I would not even log an area that you did not intend to convert to pasture or permanent clearing by stumping. Over time, you can clear and stump as you find funds. Eventually you will get to the 35 acre mark. If you do it all now by hiring it out you will miss out on the fun.

Wesdor · Mar 10, 2006

As many others have said, get a forester. That sounds a bit low if you have any amount of timber.

A different direction than others have mentioned - All the loggers will take is the butt cut. You will probably be left with a large amount of tops which need to be cleaned up. I suggest you consider cutting those into firewood. It is hard work and doesn't pay much if you figure by the hour, but I think you need to use everything.

The next thing would be to rent a chipper and turn everything under firewood size into mulch.

You won't be getting rich on the work, but at least you will make the most of the trees you remove.

BTW - where are you located? Perhaps you are too far south for firewood.

Clyde · Mar 10, 2006

John - All of the other replies to your thread about a forester are right on the mark. All I can add to any of it, is to be realistic as to the final results. You are vague as to the wood you have to harvest or where you are located. Please fill out your profile at least to the point as to where you are located. You will be left with stumps from any trees harvested. Brush piles from the tops are to be expected and the logger can pile "most" of these into scattered piles. If you want to clean up the rest of it with a rake - that's your problem. Firewood is a definite option and if we knew your location certainly would have helped. There are a plethoria of firewood havesters that will come in and clean up anything harvestable to them but not a lot of money in that. None the less, I think they are doing you a favor in cleaning up. Chippers speed up the decomposition supplied by nature but a brush pile serves as habitat for the wild animals. Scrub oak and brush has little wholesale value. Railroad ties are the best you might expect from scrub oak along with firewood. None of us know what you have to sell as you didn't explain. Bottom line is that a registered forester is your first step in the process.

Best of luck and keep us informed - Clyde

johnnyringo · Mar 10, 2006

Ok more info:

I live in Northeastern Oklahoma right along the Arkansas border near Siloam Springs, AR. The timber is primarily hardwood...red oak, white oak. All three bids I received were taking 14" and up so it wasn't what I classify as clearcut but judging from what other post logging properties I've seen it pretty much takes everything. They leave trees but they are very tall and skinny. The scrub stuff.

Is it possible that sometimes logging ends up costing you more than the proceeds because of the cleanup? Am I better off just having the 35 or so acres I want cleared and not be logged off at all and just dozed? I have asked around about dozer work and for a d6 or d7 class dozer I was quoted anywhere from 75 to 100 dollars per hour. That money would come out of my pocket and not from any timber sales as anticipated but would it actually save money in the long run?

I would be willing to cut some of the firewood but I only have time to do that on the weekends and 80 acres of slash would certainly be overwhelming. I'm not against rolling up my sleeves and going to work but after clearing about five acres with my tractor a stihl chainsaw and my bare hands I found out that heavy equipment is in order. The old settlers must have been tough as nails. No wonder there weren't any fat people 100 years ago!!!

Wesdor · Mar 10, 2006

First of all, let me apologize for not welcoming you to the forum. You will find a lot of great information and people here. WELCOME!

Sounds to me like the people giving you bids are doing what is called "high grading". Basically they take the most lucrative trees without caring about the forest.
Ron Wenrich (a forester) has said, "Good forest management has more to do with what is left, than what is taken."

You might get a few dollars by destroying your current timber, but in the long run I imagine you will be better off if you have a professional help you build a plan to manage your timber.

Good luck.

ToadHill · Mar 11, 2006

Just a brief story. I took a course offerred several years ago by Cornell U. called Master Forest Owner training. They gave an example of the value of getting a forester involved in any decision to sell timber. They introduced a farmer who was in the market for some new equipment and was offerred $18,000 for some timber on his property. A neighbor talked him into getting a forester to work with him in the timber sale. The same timber stand went to the high bidder for $42,000. When the logger showed up to begin to cut, it was the same person who had origionally offerred the $18,000.

If your concern is the condition of the land when the logging is finished you really need a forester. They will include an upfront payment in any contract based on a percentage of the timber value. The logger only gets the upfront payment back when the cleanup is finished.

EddieWalker · Mar 11, 2006

In my area of East Texas, it's proven beyond my abilities to get a logger to come in and take the trees I want to get rid of. I was even giving them away to one guy, but he disapeared after a few loads.

Most never even show up and the others only want to do it their way. They all say the same thing. It cost them so much money to bring out their equipment that it has to be worth their while.

From the land owners I've talked to, I hear the same story every time. For what you make off the lumber, it costs just as much or more to clean up your land afterwards. If you can find a logger that will remove all the stumps and grade the dirt in exchange for the trees, you're doing pretty good.

I still ask around, but so far, it's easier and faster to just pull aside the good oaks and cedars, then burn everything else.

Eddie

Highbeam · Mar 11, 2006

"Is it possible that sometimes logging ends up costing you more than the proceeds because of the cleanup?"

It is more than possible, it is probable. Only the most valuable stands of prime timber would reap enough timber proceeds to pay for clearing the ground the forest sets on.

Of course the "cleanup" as you say means different things to different people. Removing the stumps, burning all the slash and other vegetation in the stand so basicly it can be smoothed out and turned into a field will cost you out of pocket.

vetteman · Mar 11, 2006

My FIL owns a company that owns about 20,000 in S NY and N Pa. We have a forestry consultant firm and they mark the trees and send out the bids on the timber. Some of the stipulations in the bids are the ground has to be frozen or dry ,no excessive ruts and when the y are done the trails have to be leveled and seeded if necessary. They dont have to remove the stumps because they are at ground level and it is a forest. If we wanted the stumps out we wouldnt make a profit on the timber.

John_Mc · Mar 11, 2006

( Sounds to me like the people giving you bids are doing what is called "high grading". Basically they take the most lucrative trees without caring about the forest.
Ron Wenrich (a forester) has said, "Good forest management has more to do with what is left, than what is taken.")

I second that. Highgrading is NOT a practice which is in your long-term best interest (in many cases, it's not even in your short-term interest). The quote based on taking "anything over 14" is usually giveaway. I would also be very wary of someone who knocks on your door and offers to harvest your timber.

When thinking of your forest think in terms decades and even centuries, not in months or years. A lot of damage can be done in a short amount of time. Your forest will probably not recover in your lifetime from a bad harvest (and probably not in your kids' lifetime either). Take the time now to develop a plan with a consulting forester. Even if it means delaying your immediate plans, you'll be glad you did it. A good forester can help you come up with a plan that addresses a whole range of issues: timber value, wildlife habitat, recreation, & etc. Goals in each of these areas are not necessarily mutually exclusive. In addition, individual trees don't necessarily increase in value in a linear fashion: the value may go for years increasing at a few percent a year, then when they reach a certain stages, the value jumps (for example when they grow from pole timber to saw timber or saw timber to veneer grade). You'd hate to cut something now that might have been about to make one of these "jumps". A good consulting forester can help guide you through this. Typically, a logger will not. Just make sure the consulting forester is working for you, buyers of forest products will often have a forester on their staff or retain one. I would recommend declining any offer from a potential buyer to "save you some money by having our forester plan the harvest for you".

Here's a place to start:

State Forester for Oklahoma:
Phone 405-521-3864
jburwell@oda.state.ok.us
(hopefully my info is still up to date)

Ask him for info on forest management practices and contacts to various groups focussing on landowner education on forestry issues. If you've got county foresters in your state, he can give you contact info for them. A county forester might be able to come out and walk your land with you, making some recommendations. A State or county forester may be reluctant to make recommendations on who you should use as a consulting forester (they want to avoid charges of favoritism, amoung other things). They can be a great source of info and point you towards other groups which can make recommendations on foresters and loggers who are good to work with, as well as provide you with tons of information on this and related topics. I know our county forester was a big help when I was getting started... but Vermont's state and country foresters do have a very good reputation on the whole. I don't know if that's true of your state as well.

Sorry for the long-winded post. You've touched on a subject that's an important one to me. I've been working like mad to educate myself on forestry and wildlife habitat ever since we bought our land. Fortunately, we're at least 10 years or so from any kind of commercial activity on our land, so I've got some time to learn and make contacts.

John Mc

jazzdaddy · Mar 11, 2006

You didn't mention what the cleared land would be used for. If you're going to make hay, that's a different scenario than say for a goat pasture.

I'm in a similar situation where I'm planning on clearing 20 acres for cattle pasture (not hay). I've hired a forester who will mark the valuable trees and will lay out the roads and log landing.

Because most of the trees in the clearing are smaller and not marketable, we will bring in a tree shear and cut them off close to the soil. Then all the trees and brush will be chipped in a whole tree chipping operation. There are a bunch of these outfits in this area that sell chips to the local biomass electrical generators. We will offset the cost of this by harvesting marketable trees from outside the cleared area. With the biomass chips and trees I'm hoping that the land clearing will provide a small income.

I will clear small rocks up to about 1 ton in size with a rock and root grapple. I may need to call in an excavator for large stumps and large rocks but at $500/day I want to minimize that. Most stumps will remain in the ground to conserve topsoil. Next, I will fence the perimeter with high tension woven wire, lime, fertilize and seed between the small stumps. Then let my cattle on it when the grass grows. I'll brush hog with the hog set up high to cut off sucker growth from the stumps.

I'm hoping to have a good field in a few years. This is land that was a pasture about 40 years ago.

A lot depends on what you will use your cleared land for.

mike69440 · Mar 12, 2006

$500-600/day for a good Excavator in NH is hard too find. I was ripped off the first go around. Got someone now I can live with for excavation/ clearing work, but I will do as much as i can with a Kubota L39 with a Borgford grapple going on the machine in a few weeks. Our new property is shaping up nice

Get a forester to work for you even with only 20 Acres

You need a timber cruise. This is an inventory of ALL of the marketable trees on your land. They should break into down so that you know how many thousand board feet of each species you own. Call the NH foresty department.

Have fun! Don't forget the Timber Tax!

johnnyringo · Mar 14, 2006

Thanks for all your help and advice. I have called the district forester in my area that works for the State of Oklahoma and he is sending me a list of people who will handle the sale for me.

The property will be used for cow pasture once it is cleared so it doesn't have to look like a putting green. I will just have to talk to the forester and find out if anyone is willing to push the trees over before cutting them on the part I want cleared. If not it looks like I go the excavator route for stumping. I'm looking forward to seeing what he says. I will keep you posted. Thanks again.

Highbeam · Mar 14, 2006

The excavator will take much more time (read more money) and dig bigger holes to pull the stumps after the logs are cut than if the excavator can pop the stumps with the trees attached. The forester may not understand that since he deals with loggers all the time.

dubba · Mar 15, 2006

( The excavator will take much more time )

I find that it depends on the excavator & how crazy the operator is.

I hired an older logger with a Hitachi 200ex. His method (or insanity, your choice) was to take one scoop from behind the stump, sink the bucket in the resulting hole & lift the excavator up onto the toes of the tracks & shake until the stump & the excavator went flying. He averaged close to 3 acres per day, stumped & leveled (10hr days). The stumps were mostly 15-24" pines.