Fuel Oil Heating

v8dave · Oct 2, 2004

I'm at 2,000' in the California Sierra mtns above Sacramento. This location is just below the snow line. We get several dustings a year of snow but it rarely lasts on the ground more than a day. The home and shop is in a small North/South valley, so, we don't get the benefit of a full day's sun. November starts the cold weather in this area. Nights get cold enough to freeze unprotected water pipes several times a month (December through March). Winter is characterized by windy storms and some storms have blown the shingles off my neighbor's roof.

I have just finished the construction of my 1,500 sq ft shop. I have insulated sectional doors, insulated the walls with R-19 and the ceiling with R-38. The windows are dual pane low-e.

I've looked into several approaches to heating this shop. I've zeroed in on a fuel oil heater as the lowest operational cost for an unattended heater. Wood or pellet stoves are out because I have to have a system that can run for a while unattended. We heat the house with Propane and it gets expensive.

I believe I've settled on a Toyo Laser 73 oil fired stove. I plan on keeping the shop at a general temperature of between 55 and 60 degrees (Farenheit). This unit with it's over capacity will bring the shop up fairly quickly to 75 or so.

Heating with oil stoves is not the norm in California. So, I don't have many folks to talk to about this. Of course the local oil company and heating company are big proponents.

Anybody have any experience with a Toyo Laser 73 stove? Or similar models or types?
Any gotchas I should be aware of? Recommendations?

And the really big question: here in Calif we have the usual nut ball rules about most everything, including in this case a law about low sulphur diesel fuel. The heating company selling the Toyo stove says this model can burn our California spec diesel fuel because it's as clean as #1 fuel oil-- Chevron fuel specs (the local fuel oil company is a Chevron dealer). Should I do it? Diesel fuel for heat makes it nice to have a common fuel tank for the tractor and diesel standby generator.

graybeard451 · Oct 2, 2004

I have been in the oil fired home heating trade for 30 years here in the NE. In the Rhode Island this kind of heating unit is not very popular, the Kerosuns (sp) of the 1980's that were vented into the living space soured most to this kind of heater. The manufacter clearly states #1 or K-1 only, is the dealer going to honor the warr. It was hard to see in the PDF, is the heating unit exhaust vented to the outside? If so you should be OK. Make sure they install a good filter before the unit, inside. You will have to check you local codes on the tank location, but I'm sure it can go outside if it's on a cement pad, but you want the filter inside so if there is any water it will not freeze. Hope this is helpful.

Deerlope · Oct 2, 2004

I have seen one similar to the Laser and it is call a Monitor here in in East. I have installed a few of them also. They are very efficent and safe but the ones that I have worked with only use kerosene or LP gas.

Varmintmist · Oct 2, 2004

1500 feet is a pretty good sized area to heat with a stand alone, IMHO. There are a lot of houses here that have less square footage and more furnace than what you are looking at.

If you have wood, you might want to think www.centralboiler.com . You can plumb to the shop AND house, zone the shop to keep the heat down, and get it in dual fuel wood/oil to get the fuel tank. And burn #2 home heating oil which is the same thing as off road deisel.

brad_oatley · Oct 2, 2004

Oil is the least desirable of the realistic fuel choices.
-messy-smelly-dirty-high maintenance. You WILL regret it.
The most desirable but likely unrealistic is solar.
Your use scenario's best choice is a 30,000btuh, 95% efficient condensing LP gas furnace. Any HVAC wholesaler that will sell direct to the end user will have 'em. About $650.
In a workshop environment, unducted, a contractor should charge about $2,000 to furnish and install one gas piped, wired, and best of all, thermostat controlled, with no maintenance.

v8dave · Oct 2, 2004

( . . . In the Rhode Island this kind of heating unit is not very popular, the Kerosuns (sp) of the 1980's that were vented into the living space soured most to this kind of heater. The manufacter clearly states #1 or K-1 only, is the dealer going to honor the warr. It was hard to see in the PDF, is the heating unit exhaust vented to the outside? If so you should be OK. Make sure they install a good filter before the unit, inside. You will have to check you local codes on the tank location, but I'm sure it can go outside if it's on a cement pad, but you want the filter inside so if there is any water it will not freeze. Hope this is helpful. )

The unit is vented to the outside, and it uses outside air for combustion. The tank will be outside on a concrete slab in accordance with local codes.

The dealer will honor the warranty with the locally supplied diesel. He said this particular model was the only one that would handle diesel. This brand of heaters used to advertize a unit that could burn diesel. They've stopped listing diesel and #2 heating oil on any of their units (because they sooted up, according to the dealer). The dealer said the California spec diesel didn't soot up the units and this unit handled the heavier viscosity diesel.

The filter tip is a good idea, I'll be sure one is included inside.

Thanks

v8dave · Oct 2, 2004

( 1500 feet is a pretty good sized area to heat with a stand alone, IMHO. There are a lot of houses here that have less square footage and more furnace than what you are looking at.

If you have wood, you might want to think www.centralboiler.com . You can plumb to the shop AND house, zone the shop to keep the heat down, and get it in dual fuel wood/oil to get the fuel tank. And burn #2 home heating oil which is the same thing as off road deisel. )

I was concerned about a single unit in the big space too. So, I build a shop inside the shop. That is I have a 12' x 20' inside shop, also with insulated walls. This smaller area is the workshop, the larger area is for primarily for storage of my old cars. I just want to keep the larger area at a moderate temperature. Now, I have to admit I did this primarily for air conditioning in the summer. I have a double door opening to this smaller area and both the heating and A/C are in the smaller area. My plan is to prop both doors open and allow the heat to bleed out to the larger shop in the winter.

There will be times I'm working on a car in the larger area and I've set aside the area in front of the small shop double doors for a lift. I figure I can put a fan to blow heat or cool as necessary to that area (out of the small shop).

We don't get below 0 in this area (in fact, rarely below 20). We do have periods of extended temps in the 30s and 40s. The biggest heat loss is from the modest winds.

One of the other odd, but nice, things about California is when storms come in off the Pacific ocean, the temp usually rises because they have all that 58 degree ocean moisture. The rare snow storms (in the coastal temperate areas) you hear about are usually arctic storms that come down inland from Alaska and Canada. So, the storms are usually moderate temps but windy.

We don't have a readily available large wood supply and that would be a problem anyway as it wouldn't work for an unattended heating system. I'm a consultant and my job sometimes requires me to be in other parts of the US for extended times. Mostly the New England area, but I've spent some time at an electric utility in Grand Forks, ND, where the wind never, ever, stops.

v8dave · Oct 2, 2004

( Oil is the least desirable of the realistic fuel choices.
-messy-smelly-dirty-high maintenance. You WILL regret it.
The most desirable but likely unrealistic is solar.
Your use scenario's best choice is a 30,000btuh, 95% efficient condensing LP gas furnace. Any HVAC wholesaler that will sell direct to the end user will have 'em. About $650.
In a workshop environment, unducted, a contractor should charge about $2,000 to furnish and install one gas piped, wired, and best of all, thermostat controlled, with no maintenance. )

Since we don't have Natural Gas at this location we do have to use LP, propane in our case, for heating. I can't justify the high cost of propane for what amounts to a hobby shop.

This Toyo unit is thermostat controlled. You may be correct about regetting the decision. But, this is a shop with a tractor and old cars in it. The real alternate for inexpensive heat in Calif is a pellet stove. But that has it's whole set of problems too.

But, you've caused me to think about the explosion hazzard of an open flame at floor level. I'll have to elevate any "floor" heater. Maybe a ceiling infrared heater? I'll have to rethink at least some part of this.

beenthere · Oct 2, 2004

From all that you've said and from what I can gather your situation is, if it was me, I would not go with oil. From the investment in your setup so far, I don't see how the cost of propane is going to be a limiting factor. It seems more like you are intrigued with doing it the 'non-conventional' way (propane). That's just an observation here. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If open flame is of any concern, your thought of radiant heat sounds like the better option.

But it is your money, to spend or to save, so let us know how it all works out in the end. Having had oil heat for 25 years, and switching to propane, I never, never have had a moment of looking back and regretting the change. Having also had oil space heater in a cabin used for hunting, I was sick of the smell that permeatted the clothes and sleeping bag when returning home. Not pleasant at all. Your restored cars will have an odor all their own when you take them out for parades, I would suspect.

Only trying to add to your information before you make the big decision. Really not trying to put you down in any way. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Junkman · Oct 2, 2004

Modern oil furnaces are as clean as any other fuel. It seems that the Natural Gas consortium have done a good job brain washing people into believing that oil is dirty. I also had propane at one home and didn't find it any cleaner or dirtier than oil. The flame in in the unit and the unit is connected to the chimney. Please tell me how oil can be any dirtier than any of the other fuels. We have oil heat and hot water in two separate units and neither has been a problem. I have antique car parts stored in the cellar and with the exception of the dust that they arrived with, they are as clean today as they were when I put them down there 10-20 years ago. We have no fuel oil odors in the home either. The only way that you would have an odor of fuel oil is if you spilled it somehow. The nicest thing about oil, is that if you ever do have a leak, the worse case scenario is that you will have an expensive clean up. The worse case scenario for both natural and propane gas, is that your home blows up if you have a leak. What is even worse, is that you might be in it when this happens. Every winter, the local news has reports of homes where carbon monoxide poisoning has occurred. I don't remember one incident where this has happened in a home heated with oil. The reason is simple.. People that have oil heat maintain their heating appliance properly. The people that have gas feel that there is no maintenance necessary. You can't match oil.

brad_oatley · Oct 2, 2004

Just plain wrong junkman. I've been 32 years in this business, currently employ 56, sell no fuel product, am completely unaffiliated, service all fuels including geothermal, solar, oils #1, #2, #4, #6, nat gas, LP gas, wood, coal.
Gaseous fuels are superior fuels for residential comfort applications. Across a life cycle analyses, factoring in maintenance costs, they are cost effective also.

ducati996 · Oct 2, 2004

Just a product suggestion that I know works very well, is a Home oil gravity feed Convection heater...the particular heater that I have located for family is the Normandie unit
from the mfg. Franco belge. This unit produces 44,000 BTU which is very good, with a clean blue flame. No electric is required, and under medium level can heat 2,000 sq feet for about 20 gallons a month.. look under oil/kerosene and then Normandie

Franco Belge oil convection heat

Ducati

beenthere · Oct 2, 2004

Yes Junkman, and I was maintaining that fuel oil furnace several times a year, including the removal of the soot which required a very good vacuum system, and try as I might, very hard to not get some all over (worse than the grease being talked about in the other thread).

I was taking the 'oil heater' in this thread as being a drip gravity fed type, which is what I had in the cabin and in some earlier rental places I stayed in years ago. They give an odor all their own to the surrounding tapestry and clothes. Maybe the new ones don't do that anymore, and that would be great if they didn't.

I've had gas now for about 10 years, and cleaning the furnace isn't necessary except for some dust balls that appear from somewhere. The maintenance has been one ignitor that is used in place of a pilot light, and I expected that to happen so had a spare on hand.

If oil heat is what is desired by anyone, I am perfectly okay with that. No problem on this end. And it just may be my opinion alone, but to me I am glad I don't have to deal with connecting and disconnecting the fuel oil lines, working with the occasional leaky connection (yep, gas is explosive, but smells and gives a warning), and cleaning the mess up. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Didn't mean to say the wrong thing. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Junkman · Oct 2, 2004

Guess that I am also on the wrong page... I was referring to a full fledged oil burner unit with a hot air heat exchanger. I have my furnace cleaned once a year by a burner specialist and I have never experienced any leaking fittings. I have my furnace piped with a return to the tank from the burner pump. This eliminates any air entrapment that will cause ignition problems. If the burner is working properly, the cad cell will not soot up and shut the unit down. I will admit that cleaning can be a nuisance if you don't have the proper equipment. That is why I use a fuel oil burner service. I don't have the proper equipment to do all the maintenance myself. I can do some of it, but I choose not to. If you can't do the complete job, then I believe that it should be left for the person that has the tools to do the complete job. If the burner stopped working in the middle of the night, I have the knowledge and tools to get it back on line along with a complete set of commonly used service parts.

v8dave · Oct 3, 2004

( . . . From the investment in your setup so far, I don't see how the cost of propane is going to be a limiting factor. . . Really not trying to put you down in any way. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif )

You have no idea of my financial situation. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Adios.

graybeard451 · Oct 3, 2004

<<The unit is vented to the outside, and it uses outside air for combustion>>

You should be golden, code should be 18 inches off the floor if you store gasoline inside (garage). Junkman is correct, you can't compare modern hi-tech oil fired heating equipment to old fashioned pot burners. You shouldn't have to touch this unit until you run at least 500 gallons through it. Most gas fired wall units that I've seen are going to take combustion air from the shop, INCREASING the risk of problems. Outside air intake not only removes the risk of explostion, but does away with blocked intake from things like sawdust. If you have soot, from ANY fuel source it is because you don't have enough air for the amount of fuel. Running low sulfur fuel should reduce the chance of damaging the heat exchanger. These hi-tech units are condensing on start up and shut down, (net stack temp below the boiling point of water). If you combine sulfur and water you get sulfuric acid which will rot out the heat exchanger. Set up a tank, these run gravity from the bottom of the tank to the unit. Then you can put a transfer pump in the top of the tank to fill your tractor. Two problems fixed for the price of one! Good luck.

v8dave · Oct 3, 2004

Graybeard, thanks. This means I also need to mount the outside tank higher, which is available. The heating guy mentioned it when estimating the project. I just wasn't thinking about the need to lift the furnace too.

This resource is great, without this exchange, I wouldn't have been keyed to the need to lift the heater--propane, fuel or pellet. This forum prevented a hazard.

v8dave · Oct 3, 2004

Duc, thanks. The Toyo unit is just a plain ole heater--looks to operate similar to yours. Since I don't need the ambiance of a fire or good looking furniture in the shop, I'll stick with the toyo--if I still go that way.

Riding note: I've a BMW K100, been looking at a multi-strada any advice?

skent · Oct 4, 2004

I needed to replace the main heat in our farmhouse last year. Normally we used 350 gallons of propane in a "Warm Morning" heater (22000 BTU) and 250 gallons of K1 in a Lear Kerosene (pot style) heater. The Warm Morning heater was unreliable and would go out occasionally. The Lear did not have a thermostat and ran around 75% efficient (lots of heat going up the flu) Did the research. Monitor got lots of bad write-ups. Went with a Toyo Laser 56. Just under $1200. Took out the propane. Found out that we never needed to light the Lear at all last winter. Heated the Farmhouse with less then 300 gallons the whole season (central Maryland). I was really happy and the little 56 just purred along. I have no regrets. Very easy to do self service. Just some cleaning every second or third year. The ratings are very conservative, I was convinced I would need the 73, (1300 square foot farmhouse) but my dealer said it's not good to go too big, as the unit will cycle on and off too much. It will cycle between low/medium/high with more efficiency the cycling on and off. Also, if it ends up being too small, the resale value of these things is unreal. I figure in three years with the Toyo 56, it will have just about paid for itself.

Super efficient and quiet. No regrets.

skent · Oct 4, 2004

I have a Lear Siegler Kero unit (as a back up) and yes, if the door gasket is bad it will stink up the place. It's too big for what we need (60000 BTU) and does not have a thermostat. If you're cold, open the valve, if you're hot, close it. Was good in the 50's and 60's. With an efficiency around 75%, not my choice, but the Toyo unit is a sealed combustion unit, draws outside air in a coax pipe, burns, exhausts out the same pipe (serves to perheat the combustion air).