Forestry Winch and Power Trac

[catvet]

I'm exploring possible machines to replace (upgrade) my Kubota B7800 (30hp). My primary jobs are cutting and skidding trees out of my land parcel and then getting the logs onto my portable mill. Some of the logs are 25-30" in diameter so are in the 2000-2500 range at 12 feet lengths. I'm also involved in developing the parcel so putting in some roads as well as a planned house site. I have a Farmi PTO winch which I consider essential to the operation. I'd never get some of the trees to the roads without it. Can I easily use the winch on a Power Trac? Also I would like to start using a logging arch to minimize damage to the property. Does a Power Trac have a hitch setup for pulling things?

From my limited exploring it appears that everything is attached to the front of the Power Trac (except the backhoe). Any way to set up a 3-point hitch with PTO power off the back so I could have forks, or whatever, on the front?

Does a Power Trac use Skid Steer Attachments? Appears to have a Skid Steer Like Plate on the Front.

I would gather it would be pretty good in the woods and on slopes (we have a lot of them here in Vermont).

Any help appreciated. I'm exploring at this point.

 

[Piedmont3]

CatVet,
I think the PT 1460 would probably handle the weight of the logs you mentioned... and I think the PT would be great on the hilly terrain...BUT I don't think any of the PT's can have a PTO because of the articulated design. I don't know this for a fact.
Here is the products page on th PT website that can give you more information http://www.power-trac.com/productclasses.htm

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

I have an 1845 Power Trac. It does not have rear 3-point, but I modified it to put a 2" receiver, and can therefore use an electric winch either front or back. (I have a 2" receiver on an attach plate in front, when needed.)
The Power Tracs are all hydraulic. To use your PTO winch on the front or back, you'd need a 640 RPM hydraulic motor, which is available.
The quick attach on the Power Tracs is their own design. If you run through some of the posts on this board, you'll find a lot of rave reviews. I have an adapter that I had cobbled up which goes from the PT to Bobcat type implements, but most of my attachments are PT.
For road preparation, I have a 4 n 1 bucket, but I'm not very skilled with it. Those who have box blades for their PTs should chime in.
If at all possible, take a vacation trip to Tazewell, Va. It is a pretty area in SW Va. They will turn you loose on a machine or two to try for yourself. A 1460 sounds like what you'd need. You'll find you get used to the articulated machine quickly, and in rough and steep terrain you'll never want to go back to a conventional tractor.

 

[catvet]

Piedmont3 and Charlie_Iliff,

Thanks for the replies. Do you know if you could use one of the attachments they use for Skid Steers to allow 3 point hitch and PTO?
Check out this link: http://www.skidsteersolutions.com/EZ_3_POINT_PTO_125_ADAPTOR_CAT_1_or_Cat_2_p/ez-3pt-125-s3.htm

I see there are also adaptors to make machines skidsteer compliant.
http://www.skidsteersolutions.com/Skid_Steer_Universal_Quick_Attach_Adaptor_s/64.htm
I suppose you could weld something like that onto one of Power Tracs custom attachment plates.
Do you know what sort of attachment Power Trac uses for their backhoe setup? If you could attach the PTO adaptor onto their connector it could be interesting.

 

[MossRoad]

I'd have to think that in logging operations, a PT1460 would run absolute circles around a tractor similar in size to a Kubota B7800. A 60HP articulated loader is a very different machine from a 30HP CUT.

I would get a hydraulic winch like this Ramsey at Surplus Center and mount it on the rear and get a grapple bucket for the front. That would make a very good logger, in my opinion.

 

[browns40]

Hi catvet,

How's the PT for ground clearance/soft parts on the underbelly? They look a little low...

Also, looking over a winch in the front seems like it would be a visibilty problem...

 

[catvet]

MossRoad,

The winch looks interesting. Though what I like about mine is that it digs down into the ground to enable more pulling power. Keeps the tractor from being dragged along the ground. Any ideas to add that cabability to the Ramsey winch?

 

[catvet]

browns40,

Yes I've thought about the clearance. I think the Power Trac is about 10" which could be a problem in some cases.

My winch is about 4 feet high which I think you could see over from the tractor seat. You actually operate the winch from the ground so you are out of the way.

 

[MossRoad]

MossRoad,

The winch looks interesting. Though what I like about mine is that it digs down into the ground to enable more pulling power. Keeps the tractor from being dragged along the ground. Any ideas to add that cabability to the Ramsey winch?

I suppose you could add a hydraulic ram to the rear of the unit with a large foot that could dig into the ground if the rig tends to move. I would try down pressure on the FEL bucket first. That might be enough to hold it.

As for ground clearance and a soft underbelly, there is nothing under the PT but plate steel. The entire unit is a virtual skid plate. And don't let the low ground clearance fool you. Not only does the unit articulate left and right, but it oscillates(twists on the horizontal plane) between the front and rear halves. That keeps four wheels on the ground way more often than a conventional tractor.

One more thing to consider is just using the winch on the front. Mount is to a plate of steel and a quick attach plate. When you want to winch something, just jam the plate in the ground. That will keep the unit from moving. Then winch a few logs up to your level and go drop the winch off and switch to the grapple. It only takes 30 seconds to drop an attachment on a PT and mount a new one. That way, you wouldn't have to mess with mounting anything on the rear of the tractor.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Piedmont3 and Charlie_Iliff,

Thanks for the replies. Do you know if you could use one of the attachments they use for Skid Steers to allow 3 point hitch and PTO?
Check out this link: http://www.skidsteersolutions.com/EZ_3_POINT_PTO_125_ADAPTOR_CAT_1_or_Cat_2_p/ez-3pt-125-s3.htm

I see there are also adaptors to make machines skidsteer compliant.
http://www.skidsteersolutions.com/Skid_Steer_Universal_Quick_Attach_Adaptor_s/64.htm
I suppose you could weld something like that onto one of Power Tracs custom attachment plates.
Do you know what sort of attachment Power Trac uses for their backhoe setup? If you could attach the PTO adaptor onto their connector it could be interesting.

Just from the picture, it looks as if the only things needed to make the 3-point PTO adapter work would be to weld a Power Trac adapter plate to it, and match hydraulic fittings. You could also weld a PT adapter plate to the universal adapter, so as to be able to use other skid-steer attachments. That is what I did.
One caution: When mounting the PT adapter to the universal skid steer adapter, take the time to clamp it together on the PT and run it through its range of motion. Had we not done that, and adjusted a little, there might have been some interference.

There is plenty of heavy metal on a PT. I agree with Moss Road that for skidding and placing logs on a mill (Wood Miser?), welding a mount for the winch on the back, and putting a grapple on the fromt would make it hard to beat. You'd probably do fine, however, with the winch on an adapter in front. You could then plant it where you wanted, control from the seat and watch. I'd recommend expanded metal across the ROPS just in case, but maybe my fear of winch cables borders on paranoia. You could skid with the winch cable, backing up, or turn and pull from the rear. My 1845 came with a pin hitch that I replaced with a 2" receiver.
Switch from the winch to forks or grapple is a one-minute operation with the PT quick attach.
My 1845 pulls fine, and works well to put logs on the Wood Miser, but it's my brother's mill, and I don't let him or his crew use the PT. Selfish

 

[MossRoad]

That PTO to hydraulic adapter is almost $1800.00. Add to that the cost of a PT quick attach plate and YIKES! Two grand just like that.

So, a few questions come to mind:

How big is the farmi winch?

What is it's capacity?

Is there a hydraulic winch out there that meets those same specs and if so, how much does it cost?

Is it worth trying to adapt the Farmi winch PTO power to hydraulic power VS purchasing a dedicated hydraulic winch?

If you go with a dedicated hydraulic winch, will the PT require something to dig into the ground to keep it stationary as was mentioned earlier?

Will you mount the winch on the rear or the front?

If you mount it in the rear, you have to add hydraulics.

If you mount it in the front, the hydraulics are already there.

How much will it cost to mount in either location?

Dropping the winch and picking up the grapple bucket takes 30 to 45 seconds. Is that too much of an inconvenience VS the cost of mounting it on the rear?

Can't think of anything else right now. Lot's to think about.

 

[ethr]

http://www.skidsteersolutions.com/Skid_Steer_Bale_Handler_s/81.htm

OOOOO Gimme!!!

I'm taking a welding class this fall at the local tech school - this will be one of the first projects!

 

[catvet]

So many questions, not so many answers.

First off for more info on the Farmi winch check out this link.
http://www.northeastimplement.com/newpage4.htm

The advantage to the Farmi winch is that you can be pulling from different angles without worrying about the cable not spooling correctly. And though I haven't actually used the feature you can in theory operate from the location of the log you are moving by attaching a longer rope.

Question about mounting in the rear would be if I get a PT-2460 which will accept a backhoe (something I'm interested in) wouldn't it have some sort of hydraulics already plumbed for the hoe?

I agree the Hydraulics to PTO attachment is expensive but it would, in theory, give me the option of other 3rd party attachments.

Another option of course is to get a hydraulic Farmi winch made for skidsteers. Again more money.

I wonder what the chances are of being able to carry the winch in a grapple bucket to get it to where I'm working.

 

[catvet]

Charlie_Iliff,

The mill is a TimberKing, manual mill. Can handle up to 29" diam. 18' long logs in it's current configuration. How I would get such a log on it is beyond me. Not to mention manually moving it around once I did.

Good idea about checking the range of motion.

 

[catvet]

Now that I look at prices for the various units I'm thinking the 1460 might serve my purposes. For the extra $5000 for the 2460 plus another $5000 for the backhoe I could rent a miniexcavator for quite awhile and get the minihoe for the 1460. Might make more sense. Still have to figure out the system for a winch.

 

[MossRoad]

First off for more info on the Farmi winch check out this link.
http://www.northeastimplement.com/newpage4.htm

The advantage to the Farmi winch is that you can be pulling from different angles without worrying about the cable not spooling correctly. And though I haven't actually used the feature you can in theory operate from the location of the log you are moving by attaching a longer rope.

Question about mounting in the rear would be if I get a PT-2460 which will accept a backhoe (something I'm interested in) wouldn't it have some sort of hydraulics already plumbed for the hoe?

I agree the Hydraulics to PTO attachment is expensive but it would, in theory, give me the option of other 3rd party attachments.

Another option of course is to get a hydraulic Farmi winch made for skidsteers. Again more money.

I wonder what the chances are of being able to carry the winch in a grapple bucket to get it to where I'm working.

Wow! I had never looked at the Farmi winches before. Very nice features. Now you have to decide if it is worth the $2000.00 to adapt it to hydraulic use on the PT.

As for carrying the winch in a grapple bucket, if it fits, you can carry it. On my little PT425, I carry my forks in my small grapple bucket and then carry that in my large light material bucket all the time. 3-in one tool! The quick attach feature is what really makes the PT such a great tool. Take a bunch of toys out to the worksite and switch back and forth with ease.

 

[BillCroasmun]

CatVet,
I don't think you need to worry about hauling the Farmi in a grapple since the Farmi is made to skid logs with the notched beam. My opinion (for what it's worth) would be to mount a quick attach plate directly to the back of the Farmi. This would give you lifting capabilities for skidding the logs out while attached to the notched bar on the Farmi and minimal work for attaching to the PTO.

This would mean you'd be driving backwards while skidding out the logs but if you read through some of the posts here (MossRoad has made some good comments about this) you find that doing so with a PT is real easy once you get a little seat time in.

Do you have the TimberKing 1220? If you set up the mill area so that you can back right past the loading area you could then drop the whole Farmi, attach forks and side load a log within a couple minutes. You'll find the PT, with it's articulated steering, lets you get real fine control for "adjusting" your position and angles. With the 1460's 2400# lift you'll be right on target for loading your size logs and if you have the stops set up on the TimberKing you should be able to use the fork tips to turn and reposition the log after it's up.

 

[browns40]

Hi catvet,

If you are sure about the hydraulics route for your PT: Tajfun is making hydraulic models of logging winches also... and yes, they (all hydraulic ones) are a lot more expensive, but save you modification costs.

Here is a picture of mine--a 40a (4 ton model). Mine is regular PTO one, and I liked the model & price (~3k) well enough to opt for it over Farmi & Fraansgaard.

 

[catvet]

Bill,
Thanks for the ideas. I'm thinking you are correct about mounting the winch to the front end. My thought is to get a logging arch to pull the logs out so I can minimize damage to the woods. I figured a hitch receiver on the back of the tractor would take care of that.

Yes it is the TimberKing 1220 mill.

Jerry

 

[BillCroasmun]

Jerry,
Are you thinking of a non-skidding single log logging arch? Lot's of different styles out there as well as many homebuilt units.

If you have the need to haul out multiple logs at a time a fairly inexpensive option, using the winches notched beam, is to get an old axle and have a towing bar welded on as well as some hooks near the hubs and on the arm. Using the FEL raise the Farmi high enough to position the axle under the logs and strap it tight. Then lower the arms to level the logs and off you go. Should be a bit cheaper than building a full arch system.

Many ways to tackle this one so I wish you the best of luck!