Fencing questions

mathey · Apr 15, 2004

I'm installing a horse/goat fence around the perimeter of 5 acres behind my house. My current plan (changes every other day) is to put wood posts in every 24', with a metal t-post in between. Then putting up a no-climb type wire mesh attached to the posts. Then a strip of electric tape along the top to keep the horses off the wire fence.

I just spoke to a local fencing supplier guy, who recommended 4/5" x 7' wood posts, buried 30" in the ground.

The local TSC has 4" x 8' wood posts for about a buck cheaper per post.

money is a HUGE factor, but I also don't want it to be a hazard, an eyesore, or a maintenence nightmare.

My questions are:

1. does my plan seem OK to the fencing gurus and those who have done fencing or had fencing done?

2. is there significant difference between a 4" and a 4/5" post? Or are they bascially the same? (marginal difference?) the wire won't really be under tension, and basically the posts are just there to hold it up, so perhaps the 4", less $$, TSC posts may be sufficient

3. is the 30" in the ground OK? i was originally going with an 8' post, 36" in the ground.

4. the fence guy recommended a 9" auger for the 4/5 posts, saying the 6" auger won't allow me to tamp the dirt around the post well enough. that sound right? my thought was the less dirt disturbed, the better - but then the post adjustment ability is lost.

5. if i go with the TSC posts, for another $200, i could switch to all wood posts (no t-posts). I've heard horror stories about horses and t-posts.

Thanks!

cowboydoc · Apr 15, 2004

I agree with TSC and then some. A 4" square post would be ok but I would go with 4/5" round posts. For your corners I would use 8" posts. I'm not sure how you put up a good fence without having the wire tight though?

As far as depth of the posts I would go at least 30". We put all of ours 36" in the ground or more. 24' with t-post in between would be fine. They make a round cap to put on the top of the t-posts. I would definitely do that to protect your horses.

I would also go with a 9" auger. 6" won't be enough room. You also have to be able to keep your posts online with your string line. That would be very difficult to do with only a 6" hole. As long as you tamp your posts in tight you will be fine.

GerardC · Apr 15, 2004

mathey

Not an expert... just my opinion:

I'm not sure about the distance of 24' (I'd go 16' max. myself) but the 4x4 posts should work fine. Depending on the type of fence being installed, I was told a minimum of 24" to 36" is usually sufficient. I have a six foot stockade fence, so I went almost 48" deep (high winds here). A 9" auger hole gives you more room to work and pack the post into position. Hope this helps.

mathey · Apr 15, 2004

thanks for the info!

( I agree with TSC and then some. A 4" square post would be ok but I would go with 4/5" round posts. )

- the TSC posts are 4" round, if it makes a difference

( For your corners I would use 8" posts. )

- I was going to do a 16' radius corner and stick with the same size wood post throughout the corner (each radius consists of 4 wood posts)...good idea or no?

( I'm not sure how you put up a good fence without having the wire tight though? )

- we used the same wire mesh in the current goat pen, made with t-posts 10' apart, the wire is rigid enough to just stand there...i'm planning on using a 3PH field fence puller though to get it relatively taut...

just to clarify, you'd recommend the 4/5 x 7', 30" deep, with the t-posts method?

mathey · Apr 15, 2004

the total max span is 12' feet...kinda like this:

wood <--12 ft--> t-post <--12 ft--> wood

cowboydoc · Apr 15, 2004

I'd recommend 4/5" 8' posts 36" deep. I'd also stretch that wire tight, especially with horses. For corners it would depend on how long they are.

GerardC · Apr 15, 2004

Ok, got it. A diagram does wonders for the brain! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

OkeeDon · Apr 15, 2004

We fenced the perimeter of 7.5 acres -- my 5, and the 2.5 of my daughter, next door. We used hog wire (4" x 4" mesh) rather than no-climb, but we don't have horses. It's primarily to keep my dogs in and the 4-wheelers out until the house is built. Hog wire is only $78 per 330' roll at TSC, so that part was cheap.

We used the 3" roound wood posts from TSC for all the intermediate posts, and made the corners from 7" round. The key is to do the corners strong enough to really crank the fence tight. If you radius the corners, I'm not sure what you're going to be pulling against.

Attached is an early picture of our driveway opening (it will be landscaped) that shows the corners. As you can see, each corner consists of 3 7" posts in an "el" configuration, joined with horizontal 3" posts. What doesn't show up in this picture is the heavy wire diagonal loop, running from the base of the corner post to the top of each outer corner post, and twisted tight (like a turnbuckle) above and below the horizontal. That locks the enitre structure together. Each horizontal is held in place with 12" long spikes, sold by TSC for the purpose, that are driven through the 7" verticals into the ends of the horizontals. TSC also sells a coil of the heavy wire for the diagonals. The wire is held in place on the posts with staples. You stick the handle of your fence pliers (also from TSC) into the loop and twist until the diagonal is stretched really tight.

Once the corners are done, strip back the horizontal wires of your wire mesh fence so you have enough to go around the 7" post and back to itself. Wrap each loose wire around itself and twist tight, like tying a twistee on the end of a garbage bag. Also put a couple of staples on each wire.

With one end of the fence securely fastened to the reinforced corners, unroll the fence, and clamp the other end to a pipe, 4x4, or a special fence puller clamp sold by TSC. Attach to your tractor and pull that baby REALLY tight. We got it so a significant portion of the fence at each end was standing upright by itself from being so tight, and the middle part was like a drumhead -- it was easy to stand up against the intermediate posts and staple. Like you said, the intermediate posts are really just to hold the fence vertical -- the real support is from the corners, which is why they have to be so strong.

When the landscaping is done, I'll trim all of the posts to be a bit higher than the fence. At the driveway, I'm going to use 3 horizontal 1x6 boards between each post for appearance.

OkeeDon · Apr 15, 2004

Here's a shot of a different corner. If you look really, really close, you can see the loop of wire of the diagonal at the top of the right corner post, and can barely see the diagonal from the left corner post going down to the bottom of the center post.

OkeeDon · Apr 15, 2004

Finally, here's a shot of the fence between the driveway and the corner pictured above. We used the wood posts spaced approximately 12' apart, and it makes a nice looking fence.

Gatorboy · Apr 16, 2004

Don,

I love the look of your fence. Did you use a PHD for the posts or did you pound them in with a post driver?

Did you cement the line posts in the ground, or are they tamped in with rock? What about the corner posts?

Seeing the pictures of your place always brings back memories of when I lived in Florida. My parents, who live in Cape Coral, also own 5 acres on Pine Island, which has the same "look" to the land as you have. They haven't done anything on that property yet (and they have owned it for 15 years), so it is 5 acres of pine trees and palmettos. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

cowboydoc · Apr 16, 2004

hog fence is a BIG no no for horses. They will get a leg through the bottom of it and tear the heck out of themselves getting it out.

mathey · Apr 16, 2004

yes, i was aware of that...thats why I chose a 2x4 mesh spacing...plus it'll help keep the little goaties in

OkeeDon · Apr 16, 2004

Cowboydoc, I should have been more careful if it sounded like I was suggesting hog wire for his fence -- I thought I was careful to say that I don't have any horses. My intention was to show the corners and bracing, which should work for no climb as well.

OkeeDon · Apr 16, 2004

Gatorboy, we used a post hole digger, but it was before I got my tractor, so we used a gas one-man augur. I had a couple of younger guys to dig the holes, and we stretched the fence with the Cat 416 I rented to clear the fence line. I didn't have to dig all the holes; the back side had existing barbed wire. We took that down (carefully) and replaced it with the wire mesh, because the dogs could get through the barbed wire. But, we used the existing posts.

Nothing is in cement. Nothing tamped with rocks, because there aren't any rocks in this area of Florida! Just planted in the ground. It works because the corners provide their own bracing -- they're locked together tighter than a freshly wound Swiss watch (does anyone wind watches any more?). The only thing the part in the ground does is prevent them from sliding sideways when you stretch the fence. The intermediate posts don't really do anything but provide supplemental upright support for the fence -- slight exaggeration, but I think we could almost have used 1x2's for that.

The combined properties are almost 1200' long. We did use intermediate bracing every 400' that consisted of a corner setup, straightened up. In other words, the 3 7" posts are in line, with the two horizontal braces between them, and the diagonal wire going from the bottom of the center post to the tops of the outer posts. This was so we didn't have to stretch more than 400' of fence at a time.

The rolls are 330' long; we spliced them by making looping each horizontal wire around the corresponding wire on the next section, making double loops around each other, then twisting the wire back around itself. Fence pliers make the twisting really tight and moderately easy to do. It's time consuming; took me about a half hour or so to make each splice.

As for the look of the property, I like it, too, now, but I didn't when I first saw it 32 years ago (Florida scrubland, not my specific property). We're from the foothills of the Alleghenies East of Pittsburgh, and lived in Northern Massachusetts (Westford) for almost 10 years. I love the rolling NE hills, stone fences, colonial houses painted white with black shutters and a single candle in each window at Christmas, and NE churches with a simple spire. Post card beauty around every corner. Florida is flat, sandy, the slash pines are scrawny, and pepper trees are almost as bad as Kudzu. It took me a while to appreciate it. But, now, when we travel out of state, my heart quickens a little when we get to the lowlands of Georgia, and and really starts pumping as we approach the tropical zone.

Your parents live, as we do, right on the edge of that tropical zone. Look on any landscape zone map, and the tropical area is zone 10. Cape Coral, Okeechobee and Port St. Lucie are all close to the border between zones 9 & 10. To me, that's the best of both worlds -- not as intensely tropical as Miami or Naples, but not as cold as Orlando (which is too far North for anyone to live comfortably).

Cape Coral is sort of a sister city to Port St. Lucie -- similar in layout and concept. Today, they have a similar population (over 100K) and economic base. PSL is a little larger in land area (well over 700 square miles), but Cape Coral has more waterfront. Debates over the merits of the East coast of Florida vs. the West coast of Florida are as intense as hydro vs. gear, but both are great places. They're actually at the opposite ends of the same water way -- the cross-Florida waterway, which goes across Lake Okeechobee from the St. Lucie river in the East to the Caloosahatchie river in the West.

Both are also growing to large for early residents, which is why we bought in Okeechobee, and I suspect why your parents have their 5 acres on Pine Island. Do they have any plans for it?

cowboydoc · Apr 16, 2004

I didn't mean you thought it was ok. I was just saying that in case anyone else thought that kind of fence was ok. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gatorboy · Apr 16, 2004

( PSL is a little larger in land area (well over 700 square miles) )

I think I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Don.

In land area, Jacksonville is first with 757 square miles (it is also the largest in the 48-contiguous States); Cape Coral is second with 115 square miles and Port St. Lucie is Florida's third largest city, with 77 square miles.

My Dad keeps threatening to retire and build a stilt house on Pine Island, but he continues to work year-after-year.

OkeeDon · Apr 16, 2004

In land area, Jacksonville is first with 757 square miles (it is also the largest in the 48-contiguous States); Cape Coral is second with 115 square miles and Port St. Lucie is Florida's third largest city, with 77 square miles. 

Oops, shows that I shouldn't be doing these things from memory; I obviously misplaced a decimal point. Thanks for finding it for me. 77 square miles was correct. As of January, 2004, according to a report released by the city, annexations have brought the total up to 95 square miles. The utility department has infrastructure in place to serve 130 sq miles, and the city is expected to annex most, if not all, of it.