Ethanol Free Fuel gets Reprieve

[ultrarunner]

Toyota had put in for permits to expand and was not approved due to a family of owls...

Also... the rolling blackouts and spot electricity rate cost NUMMI dearly.

The day we spent there watching Mom's Corolla go from shell to a finished car at the end of the line was one of the best days ever... everyone knew us and we had unprecedented access... even pictures sitting in the car going down the line and the engine compartment has many signatures as the car was being assembled...

 

[dickfoster]

Toyota had put in for permits to expand and was not approved due to a family of owls...

Also... the rolling blackouts and spot electricity rate cost NUMMI dearly.

The day we spent there watching Mom's Corolla go from shell to a finished car at the end of the line was one of the best days ever... everyone knew us and we had unprecedented access... even pictures sitting in the car going down the line and the engine compartment has many signatures as the car was being assembled...

Not to mention the problems of water supply and the endless harping of the greenies and ceaseless mountains of goverment generated paperwork and the UAW. Is it any wonder that Tacomas are built in Mexico now. Sound familiar? Trying to run any business, must less a small business is rapidly approaching an impossible dream in California. It's also been some years since any silicon was actually produced in Silicon Valley. Most of that is done in Asia now. A business we used to own and was invented here is now simply gone. While they do their utmost to attract deadbeats and those who suck up and consume tax money they do their level best to run the tax base off to other states and other countries. What's wrong with this picture?

 

[dickfoster]

Yep little islands of private land holdouts surrounded by ever increasing park lands.

True off-grid except they have underground copper phone service... 7 to 10 miles in and telephones with candles for lights and spring water for the homes... deep in the redwood forest... really very spectacular and yet a world away.

One of the plots started a new life in the 60's as a commune after being a logging camp going back to the 1800's... The one room all hear redwood school house is still there slowing being reclaimed by nature.

Very simple lifestyle... with many now in their 70's... about the only to make a living is crafts, writing, logging and AG of the herb kind...

Directions are simple... drive the Pacific Ocean, turn Left on Highway One and left again in Davenport and 7 miles up the mountain...

Yeah I've hiked miles and miles and miles in the Santa Cruz Mountains, mostly lugging a bunch of camera gear up and down those hills. I was a volunteer docent for the state parks 5th district for some years. I got a snoot full of training including local history along with a lot of natural history stuff doing the docent thing. There are hippies all over the Santa Cruz mountains, most in close vicinity to the parks. It's getting to be either state or county park land or protected in one form or other like open space preserves etc.
Most of the redwood you see today was once clear cut and is mostly second growth. Coast Redwood grows fast. Most of the first growth is in the parks like Henry Cowell and Big Basin.

 

[ultrarunner]

I take the approach that government should not offer incentives other than eliminating the endless duplicate role of bureaucrats...

Even in my short 25 year tenure... the change has been phenomenal...

Emergency Standby Hospital Generator now comes under several different agencies all having their own priorities.

A facility with Certificate of Occupancy dated 1995 is fast becoming obsolete... fire regs, air management, medicare, local hazmat, etc...

We have to pay a fee for each Oxygen Cylinder, each Nitrogen Cylinder and each Nitrous oxide Cylinder onsite... CERS is a digital record with the though emergency responders will have all information available at all times... local Fire is not part of CERS...

Each agency adds cost without regard to what others are doing...

Fire wanted one thing, ADA another, Building another... all for a surgeon scrub sink.

The older guys said I'm looking at things backwards.. the more regulation the more they need people like us... job security but what if you secure yourself right out of a job.

Ethanol as an option is fine... as a mandate quite another.

 

[dickfoster]

I take the approach that government should not offer incentives other than eliminating the endless role of bureaucrats...

Even in my short 25 year tenure... the change has been phenomenal...

Emergency Standby Hospital Generator now comes under several different agencies all having their own priorities.

A facility with Certificate of Occupancy dated 1995 is fast becoming obsolete... fire regs, air management, medicare, local hazmat, etc...

We have to pay a fee for each Oxygen Cylinder, each Nitrogen Cylinder and each Nitrous oxide Cylinder onsite... CERS is a digital record with the though emergency responders will have all information available at all times... local Fire is not part of CERS...

Pretty soon you'll have to leave the state to get sick. LOL But wait all of this nonsense is making me sick. Catch 22.

 

[Copperhead]

Saying either live with it of move is very harsh...

I have a third option and that is to speak out against it, to legislatures, through the old car and small engine lobby and widely on public forums in print and electronic.

Simply saying it is my fault for having a vented fuel system... well... many fuel systems ARE vented... millions and millions to be sure.

Varnish and build up that present no problem on a classic suddenly require expensive repairs....

I never experienced vapor lock prior to ethanol... I own 50 classic/antique vehicles.

My 61 Corvette quit and it was due to vapor lock due to a change to ethanol.

What is right is right and nothing right about being steamed rollered by regulators catering too the corn lobby.

I'm no fan of Trump... but if he can reel in some of this nonsense I will be.

By the way... one side of the family farm and have been doing so for generations going back 300 years... now the new regs have dairy scrambling to capture methane from cow farts... go figure.

I did mention a third alternative. You must not have gotten past the deal with it or move. I did mention that folks need to put leverage on their hired help at the state capitol, as that is who is determining if ethanol free is available or not. There is no demand from EPA that ethanol free not be sold.

True many older fuel systems are vented, but not any automobile for the last 40+ years. Using some analogy like a 50's auto is pretty lame argument. If you have a vehicle like that, then get with a local oil and fuel supplier and buy special grades of gas that they carry. I can go to a local oil and fuel supplier and they have pumps at their location for everything from ethanol free on up thru 110 octane racing fuel. With a car like you are describing, anyone owning one of them in good condition should also have some connections with a car club that can direct you to good fuel.

 

[ultrarunner]

I did mention a third alternative. You must not have gotten past the deal with it or move. I did mention that folks need to put leverage on their hired help at the state capitol, as that is who is determining if ethanol free is available or not. There is no demand from EPA that ethanol free not be sold.

True many older fuel systems are vented, but not any automobile for the last 40+ years. Using some analogy like a 50's auto is pretty lame argument. If you have a vehicle like that, then get with a local oil and fuel supplier and buy special grades of gas that they carry. I can go to a local oil and fuel supplier and they have pumps at their location for everything from ethanol free on up thru 110 octane racing fuel. With a car like you are describing, anyone owning one of them in good condition should also have some connections with a car club that can direct you to good fuel.

That is my point... please show me where in San Francisco this can be done...

We used to have drag strips and very active Sports Car Club of America... I've got 40+ years as a card carrying member of the Model A Ford Club of America...

Have several antiques with fuel tanks sealed with aviation fuel tank sloshing compound... excellent product... seals and coats the inside of the fuel tank... one big problem... it is soluble with Ethanol...

Mind you I paid extra to have this done in the 1970's and 80's... Never in my wildest imagination did I think ethanol fuel would the only game in town...

As for connections with car clubs... the members come to me to ask for advice.

I've driven my cars on tour as far as 800... miles for National Conventions... Can't think anyone would advise I strap fuel 60 gallons of fuel on the running board of my 1930 automobile.

I own 50 antique, classic and collector cars... the fuel issue has me grounded... not a one has been on the road in several years... I use to drive them all the time... one day it might be the 1905 Oldsmobile... next week a Model T Speedster or Model A Deluxe Roadster... cars from the 30's like my Austin Bantam or American Bantam... maybe the 49 Plymouth that had to come home on a flatbed after its first tank of Ethanol mix... the 57 Ford missed so bad and the 61 Corvette got vapor lock the first time ever... then there are the Mustangs with fuel line and fuel pump issues... even my 64 VW had fuel problems...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see there is a cause and effect here... some of these cars I have owned 45 years... never fuel issues unless running out of gas once counts...

My Uncle is a Cal Poly Rocket Propulsion Scientist by the way... his comments is little though is given today about backwards compatibility... some call it planned obsolescence.

All my fuel problems started when Ethanol Fuel became the only game in town... aviation fuel is technically illegal to use over the road... even so... the airports here are like prison camps... access is super tight...

Is it really too hard to understand my views are a product of my experience?

My "New" car is 15 years old and so far no fuel issues...

Ethanol was directly responsible for a rash of car fires in California... always older carbureted vehicles with fuel lines not compatible with ethanol...

It is not just fuel lines but also mechanical fuel pumps... several of my old car friends have had new pumps where the ethanol disintegrated the diaphragm and fuel got into the crankcase causing severe damage.

This is just cars... the problems with small engines is just as bad...

I guess it is all my fault for taking excellent care and maintaining my equipment so it last decades instead of a few years and to the trash...

My 1905 Oldsmobile is 111 years old... how many 2016 year model cars do you think will be roadable in 2127?

When California changed Diesel Fuel it paid out millions in damage... my brother got a check for $1200 to rebuild his injector pump...

Old car owners have been left to fend for themselves...

 

[k0ua]

That is my point... please show me where in San Francisco this can be done...

We used to have drag strips and very active Sports Car Club of America... I've got 40+ years as a card carrying member of the Model A Ford Club of America...

Have several antiques with fuel tanks sealed with aviation fuel tank sloshing compound... excellent product... seals and coats the inside of the fuel tank... one big problem... it is soluble with Ethanol...

Mind you I paid extra to have this done in the 1970's and 80's... Never in my wildest imagination did I think ethanol fuel would the only game in town...

As for connections with car clubs... the members come to me to ask for advice.

I've driven my cars on tour as far as 800... miles for National Conventions... Can't think anyone would advise I strap fuel 60 gallons of fuel on the running board of my 1930 automobile.

I own 50 antique, classic and collector cars... the fuel issue has me grounded... not a one has been on the road in several years... I use to drive them all the time... one day it might be the 1905 Oldsmobile... next week a Model T Speedster or Model A Deluxe Roadster... cars from the 30's like my Austin Bantam or American Bantam... maybe the 49 Plymouth that had to come home on a flatbed after its first tank of Ethanol mix... the 57 Ford missed so bad and the 61 Corvette got vapor lock the first time ever... then there are the Mustangs with fuel line and fuel pump issues... even my 64 VW had fuel problems...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see there is a cause and effect here... some of these cars I have owned 45 years... never fuel issues unless running out of gas once counts...

My Uncle is a Cal Poly Rocket Propulsion Scientist by the way... his comments is little though is given today about backwards compatibility... some call it planned obsolescence.

All my fuel problems started when Ethanol Fuel became the only game in town... aviation fuel is technically illegal to use over the road... even so... the airports here are like prison camps... access is super tight...

Is it really too hard to understand my views are a product of my experience?

My "New" car is 15 years old and so far no fuel issues...

Ethanol was directly responsible for a rash of car fires in California... always older carbureted vehicles with fuel lines not compatible with ethanol...

It is not just fuel lines but also mechanical fuel pumps... several of my old car friends have had new pumps where the ethanol disintegrated the diaphragm and fuel got into the crankcase causing severe damage.

This is just cars... the problems with small engines is just as bad...

I guess it is all my fault for taking excellent care and maintaining my equipment so it last decades instead of a few years and to the trash...

My 1905 Oldsmobile is 111 years old... how many 2016 year model cars do you think will be roadable in 2127?

When California changed Diesel Fuel it paid out millions in damage... my brother got a check for $1200 to rebuild his injector pump...

Old car owners have been left to fend for themselves...

Move to Branson Mo. Problem solved. Bring all of your cars with you. Plenty of E0. Yes it costs more than E10 and I only use it for my small engines as my modern autos do fine with the E10, although I tried some E0 for a few tank fills in my 2010 Silverado and got better gas mileage than running it on E10. I know that because I ran it on a "closed course". The exact same distance and route every day. I chronicled it here on TBN a couple of years ago. But I did the math, and even though I got better mileage and possibly better performance it did not pencil out costs wise. So after a few tank fills and at 80 miles a day it did not take all that long to go thru a tank, I switched back.

If you own any property in Cali, you could sell it and buy a mansion here as property prices run about 5 to 1 lower. You might as well move back here, everyone else from Cali, and back east have.

 

[Wagtail]

Move to Branson Mo. Problem solved. Bring all of your cars with you. Plenty of E0. Yes it costs more than E10 and I only use it for my small engines as my modern autos do fine with the E10, although I tried some E0 for a few tank fills in my 2010 Silverado and got better gas mileage than running it on E10. I know that because I ran it on a "closed course". The exact same distance and route every day. I chronicled it here on TBN a couple of years ago. But I did the math, and even though I got better mileage and possibly better performance it did not pencil out costs wise. So after a few tank fills and at 80 miles a day it did not take all that long to go thru a tank, I switched back.

If you own any property in Cali, you could sell it and buy a mansion here as property prices run about 5 to 1 lower. You might as well move back here, everyone else from Cali, and back east have.

James (and ultrarunner), we've discussed this before; about him 'upping stakes' and moving away from the anguish of the fuel, water, garbage... heck, even the cow fart regulations and taxation that he lives under. But he's not ready to retire or leave where he's at. AND he's already invested in alternative retirement properties... Heck, I bought my place here in Tassie in '98 but had to wait until '12 before I could retire here AND get away from the 'Big Smokes' to the rural life.


[Disclaimer: It is Saturday evening and I've enjoyed a lovely bottle of Shiraz... so if I'm waxing on... oh, well roposetoast:]

 

[dickfoster]

I did mention a third alternative. You must not have gotten past the deal with it or move. I did mention that folks need to put leverage on their hired help at the state capitol, as that is who is determining if ethanol free is available or not. There is no demand from EPA that ethanol free not be sold.

True many older fuel systems are vented, but not any automobile for the last 40+ years. Using some analogy like a 50's auto is pretty lame argument. If you have a vehicle like that, then get with a local oil and fuel supplier and buy special grades of gas that they carry. I can go to a local oil and fuel supplier and they have pumps at their location for everything from ethanol free on up thru 110 octane racing fuel. With a car like you are describing, anyone owning one of them in good condition should also have some connections with a car club that can direct you to good fuel.

It's pretty clear that you know nothing of how the circus called California operates. If you want a clue just look at the idiots they have in congress like Pelosi, Boxer and Feinstein and there are worse but you don't hear much about them. The whole state is eaten up with lunacy and it really is much like an insane asylum. Even our dufus governor is called Moonbeam and that idiot is on his third term while his father was just as big of an a s s as he is. The last good governor California had was Reagan. And yes I did try to move back to the USA but my wife was not going for it although she's having second thoughts now.

 

[Copperhead]

I am fully aware of the much of the circus of CA. Those of us in commercial trucking are very aware of the alternative universe called California. That is why I, as of the end of the last century, will not haul a load in or out of CA. It just plain doesn't exist to me anymore. And it is clear from your comments that you are not tickled pink about CA, so the choice falls in your lap. Every fuel choice from E0 to E85 is available in my area. Taxes are much lower. And I can buy 5x the property in my area for the dollar as I can in much of CA. You complain about your situation, but you are not willing to do anything about it. Many of your compadres in CA have seen the light and have made the move out.

Yes I am fully aware of the folly that is called California.

 

[dickfoster]

I am fully aware of the much of the circus of CA. Those of us in commercial trucking are very aware of the alternative universe called California. That is why I, as of the end of the last century, will not haul a load in or out of CA. It just plain doesn't exist to me anymore. And it is clear from your comments that you are not tickled pink about CA, so the choice falls in your lap. Every fuel choice from E0 to E85 is available in my area. Taxes are much lower. And I can buy 5x the property in my area for the dollar as I can in much of CA. You complain about your situation, but you are not willing to do anything about it. Many of your compadres in CA have seen the light and have made the move out.

Yes I am fully aware of the folly that is called California.

Yeah I've heard truckers on the CB talking about how great it was being back in the USA when they crossed the state line. If you lived here you'd know that it doesn't matter what sensible people have to say or how loud they shout it. The idiots in Sacramento just aren't listening and don't give a dayum because they have their on idiotic agenda. Half the state, including myself, want to secede and divide the state.

 

[Copperhead]

Good idea! West Virginia did it back in the day from Virginia and it still stands.

 

[daugen]

I just read an article, only a year late, so this is sure not hot news, that the first isobutanol fueling station in Texas was opened at the Express Lube in Fredericksburg. Have no idea if these stations proliferated. Anyone in that area ever try this "new" gas?

"unlike ethanol, isobutanol has been extensively tested in marine engines, with positive results. Moisture resistance and capacity to reduce engine corrosion were ideal for equipment and vehicles that are used intermittently." BoatUS Dec 2015

 

[drizler]

We were lucky in Northern NY to a point. The Indians, perpetual pita they are flat refused to abide by the governors mandate. They never even said boo to them at the border and they came from Quebec with real gas. So no matter what we could always get it if willing to drive to the res , it was cheaper anyways. They finally did some sort of tax deal a few years back and now only have E0 in super. That's ok as it's still cheaper than the outside regular by a bit. In the last few years even the regular stations offer it though it's stupidly priced much of the time. At least you can get it though. As for California that truly is the land of fruits and nuts. They always manage to take a good thing and ruin it because they never know when to stop.

 

[dickfoster]

Good idea! West Virginia did it back in the day from Virginia and it still stands.

That was a whole different situation. Many still think that situation was and still is unconstitutional and a dirty yankee trick. My great great grand pappy, Mike Foster, was a member of the the Monroe Guards, the 27th regiment, of the Army of Northern Virginia and part of the Stonewall Brigade. Monroe county was then a county in VA but is today part of WV. My ancestor was a sharpshooter and was highly valued by the Confederacy. There is even a monument to him in WV but he thought of himself as a Virginian.

 

[Copperhead]

The situation was different, for sure. Not many people disputing still over who should own slaves and similar political issues of the times. But it was primarily political and economic issues that caused the separation. And there is no legal restriction that it could not happen today. The precedent has been set. The Constitution does not address the issue, so whether it is Constitutional is a moot point. Secession has been addressed by the courts, even staunch original intent Justice Scalia is on record as saying secession is invalid. There are some references in the Constitution that can be construed as being against secession. But states wanting to split, no legal reason they cannot, and again, we have a precedent in history that it is valid and still stands. Was fully accepted by the United States and has not come under dispute since. And Virginia came out in full support of the split and gave it a legislative stamp of approval. Only a dispute over a couple of counties ever came up in 1866. The court sided with WV over the issue and it has not become a legal question since. And with that court approval, came a legal precedent that recognized the separate state of WV. So all bases are covered if another state decides to split. Now we just have to find some folks with the stones to do it in California. It's their state, it's their problem. They have to decide. I don't live or go there.

 

[dickfoster]

The situation was different, for sure. Not many people disputing still over who should own slaves and similar political issues of the times. But it was primarily political and economic issues that caused the separation. And there is no legal restriction that it could not happen today. The precedent has been set. The Constitution does not address the issue, so whether it is Constitutional is a moot point. Secession has been addressed by the courts, even staunch original intent Justice Scalia is on record as saying secession is invalid. There are some references in the Constitution that can be construed as being against secession. But states wanting to split, no legal reason they cannot, and again, we have a precedent in history that it is valid and still stands. Was fully accepted by the United States and has not come under dispute since. And Virginia came out in full support of the split and gave it a legislative stamp of approval. Only a dispute over a couple of counties ever came up in 1866. The court sided with WV over the issue and it has not become a legal question since. And with that court approval, came a legal precedent that recognized the separate state of WV. So all bases are covered if another state decides to split. Now we just have to find some folks with the stones to do it in California. It's their state, it's their problem. They have to decide. I don't live or go there.

There has been a State of Jefferson movement for quite a few years now, since 1941 I think. I sign petitions supporting it everytime I get the chance and more and more countries are joining in to become a part of it. It's gathering some steam at least as the map is growing not shrinking. It includes portions of southern Oregon who are also fed up with their leftist, Marxist state gubberment.

 

[ultrarunner]

Here is a thought about Ethanol Fuel to settle the debate/merits.

If Ethanol Blends are no problem and in fact beneficial for cars, boats, mowers, chainsaws, etc why is there an exemption or non mandate for aviation?

I want to see only Ethanol Blends for aviation so the "Benefits" will flow to all segments of motor fuel users.

Why wouldn't we want planes to share the same benefits we as motorists and small engine owners "Enjoy"?

 

[Ford850]

Here is a thought about Ethanol Fuel to settle the debate/merits.

If Ethanol Blends are no problem and in fact beneficial for cars, boats, mowers, chainsaws, etc why is there an exemption or non mandate for aviation?

I want to see only Ethanol Blends for aviation so the "Benefits" will flow to all segments of motor fuel users.

Why wouldn't we want planes to share the same benefits we as motorists and small engine owners "Enjoy"?

Because congressmen fly on planes, but they don't mow their own grass.