Container Weld Shop build -

[BukitCase]

OK, I kinda buried the numbers in my usual blather

Hoe cylinders -
2 Stabilizers
2 Swing cyls
2 Boom cyls (one each side)
1 Stick(dipper) cyl
1 Bucket cyl

Loader cylinders -
2 Lift cyls
2 Curl cyls
1 Auto level cyl. (Oh, and don't ask me exactly how it works, maybe I'll know when I'm done with ALL of 'em )

Here's a pic from the brush bucket build, and a marked up version -


Clear as mud, right??!? Steve

Oops, forgot your last question;
"The last picture is the rod with seals on the end, how do they come off, I'm assuming you're going to change everything?"

Yup, the gland has an external wiper seal, an internal wiper couple O rings and a "slider" thingy - the piston on these older cases is a split (2 piece) with a center piece and several "squished together" seals on both sides, with 2 recessed washers surrounding those. 1-1/8" fine thread bolt goes in the back of the rod (the straight end), and everything goes back on the rod and that bolt torqued to 450 lbs, THEN it gets shoved back into the barrel, tighten up the gland, put a new lock screw between gland and cylinder body (barrel) - here's an exploded view; #5 is the EXTERNAL wiper, 6 is the INTERNAL wiper/pressure seal, 3 is the gland, #8 and 7 are the O ring and backing ring that go right behind the outer face of the gland - Then # 12 and 13 are the "squishing washers" (NOT part of a kit), 14 and 15 are part of the kit, and 16 and 17 are the 450 lb. bolt/washer.


The outer end (gland nut end) is belled out, and the previous cylinders I did I wrapped the rod seals with some thin aluminum flashing til they started into the bell; worked well. You still need a heavy comealong or something to force things back together, and a good slather of hyd. oil if you actually want it to MOVE Hope that helps... Steve

Oh, BTW - that gland nut is an absolute ***** to clean out after the "hot wrench" treatment, but so's LIFE

 

[BukitCase]

One of the LEAST fun parts of rebuilding these cylinders (especially the smaller ones) is getting those inner seals distorted enough to go back into their groove inside the gland - (see item #6 in the previous exploded view)

In the first 5 cylinders I did, (all but one were larger diameter than this one) I tried twisting the seal into a figure 8 (easier warm than cold, but still not easy) I found I could really use 3 SMALLER but STRONGER fingers that could all fit inside the gland along with the seal (If wishes were horses, beggars would ride )

Well, guess what!!?! THIS beggar's not gonna be walkin' for THIS particular job :thumbsup:

Kit King - Rod Seal Install Tool Set - 5 Piece Hydraulic U-Cup Twistor Installation Tool Set: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

That kit is a little spendy, but I have 8 more cylinders that need kitted, and I decided it was worth it to me to spend another $9.50 per cylinder and have the tools for later; it showed up today, so after I get a couple dozen OTHER nagging things out of the way (like, manana) I'll see how it works.

From the look of it, I won't be sorry... Steve

 

[Oldpath05]

Ok first and foremost question is how exactly does that self leveling cylinder suppose to work...........

2 Boom cyls (one each side)<<<I didn't see those ones before, do they same thing as this one?>>>>>> 1 Stick(dipper) cyl Next time I see a backhoe I'll take a closer look, to me sounds like that tractor has overdosed on hydraulic cylinders.

"One of the LEAST fun parts of rebuilding these cylinders (especially the smaller ones) is getting those inner seals distorted enough to go back into their grove inside the gland - (see item #6 in the previous exploded view)" <<<<<<I think if I had that many cylinders to do I'd definitely get that seal twisting tool if I knew what I was doing to begin with.

"I found I could really use 3 SMALLER but STRONGER fingers"<<<<<<Maybe all you need is a cup of coffee>>>>>>> The Anybody Want Coffee Guy - YouTube

 

[BukitCase]

"Ok first and foremost question is how exactly does that self leveling cylinder suppose to work"

There ya go again, I just asked ya NOT to ask me :confused2: - actually, I DO know how it works; just not how to explain it well enough in a short time, and I gotta get up fairly early manana and go get a spare motor for the manlift; but I'll give it a shot manana sometime...

"2 Boom cyls (one each side)<<<I didn't see those ones before, do they same thing as this one?>>>>>> 1 Stick(dipper) cyl Next time I see a backhoe I'll take a closer look, to me sounds like that tractor has overdosed on hydraulic cylinders."

Only by one or two; it is one of the earlier construction type hoes, newer ones went to a single boom cylinder that's bigger diameter, makes plumbing simpler -

Think of a backhoe as just part of a human body - if you plant your feet (stabilizers) and twist your body at the waist (the turret, ran by the swing cyls) you can rotate.

Now, check out your ARM - the upper arm bone (the boom) has its own "muscles" to raise or lower - then the lower arm bone(s) have THEIR muscles (AKA cylinders) and finally, your wrist and hand (the bucket) needs ITS "muscle", AKA cylinder- so at the very least, a hoe needs THREE cylinders just for its "ARM" - Then there's one more cylinder for each "leg"/stabilizer, and the two SWING cylinders to rotate the entire "arm" so you can dump where you're NOT digging :thumbsup:

Chew on that a bit, and we'll get into self-leveling manana... Steve

 

[aczlan]

Ok first and foremost question is how exactly does that self leveling cylinder suppose to work...........

It is physically connected to the lift circuit so it moves in and out when the arms go up and down, but it is also hydraulically connected to the bucket cylinders.
As such, when the loader arms go up, it forces the leveling cylinder to extend which moves enough hydraulic fluid to make the bucket dump just enough to stay level (in theory).

Aaron Z

 

[BukitCase]

Aaron, that's at LEAST as clear and concise an explanation as I coulda managed even when I'm NOT sleep-deprived - thanks...

And you're correct about the "in theory" part; mine doesn't quite live up to the theory, so I'm hoping that when that particular "alligator" gets to the top of the pond, a new kit will move theory and fact closer together ...Steve

 

[Oldpath05]

It is physically connected to the lift circuit so it moves in and out when the arms go up and down, but it is also hydraulically connected to the bucket cylinders.
As such, when the loader arms go up, it forces the leveling cylinder to extend which moves enough hydraulic fluid to make the bucket dump just enough to stay level (in theory).

Aaron Z

Ok connected to the hydraulic system, that makes some since, I mean when I see it connected to the FEL like the lift cylinders are, I was thinkinking that makes no since how can that keep the bucket level while lifting...........

 

[Oldpath05]

"Ok first and foremost question is how exactly does that self leveling cylinder suppose to work"

There ya go again, I just asked ya NOT to ask me :confused2: - actually, I DO know how it works; just not how to explain it well enough in a short time, and I gotta get up fairly early manana and go get a spare motor for the manlift; but I'll give it a shot manana sometime... Steve

You'll learn after awhile when certain people tell me not to walk on the grass.............................I also decided to join this club, it's very quite exclusive club not everyone can qualify>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Oldpath05]

"2 Boom cyls (one each side)<<<I didn't see those ones before, do they same thing as this one?>>>>>> 1 Stick(dipper) cyl Next time I see a backhoe I'll take a closer look, to me sounds like that tractor has overdosed on hydraulic cylinders."

Only by one or two; it is one of the earlier construction type hoes, newer ones went to a single boom cylinder that's bigger diameter, makes plumbing simpler -
Steve

That explanation has to be re-written in english, mainiac version.................I know how the human body works but not sure if I have three hydraulic cylinders hooked at my elbow doing the same thing. Maybe in the 70s Case decided to make a BH with extra cylinders to sell more repair parts, then one day Japan stepped in and said hey 3 cylinders doing the same thing, that's crazy we can build better equipment than that, and the rest is history... All done chewing need more input.

 

[BukitCase]

I was interchanging "muscle" with "cylinder", since those are what MOVES the various parts -

"Maybe in the 70s Case decided to make a BH with extra cylinders to sell more repair parts"

Using that reasoning, God musta REALLY liked DOCTORS (as in, making 'em RICH ) - count the muscles that might need fixing :laughing:


Also, keep in mind that the Case was/is an INDUSTRIAL machine, this particular one was "rode hard and put away wet" if it was put away at all - when I got it, it was ALREADY over 30 years old with little (if ANY) signs of maintenance, and STILL WORKED...

TractorData.com J.I. Case 58B Construction King industrial tractor information

Having worked in heavy industry the last 35 years (and running a crew of ALL crafts (welders, millwrights, electricians, pipe fitters, machinists, instrument techs) for the last 10, I REALLY appreciate things that are built to LAST - which is why I bought the Case instead of John Deere, Cat, etc; several of those use a SINGLE, CENTER mount cylinder for the FEL curl (a MUCH weaker design) -

Also, Case is the ONLY loader I've seen that uses REVERSING bell cranks (look at mine in the pics) that make CURL STRENGTH the strongest because the cylinder(s) PUSH to CURL the bucket - this increases BREAKOUT force a LOT over the way everybody ELSE does it, because it's using the WHOLE PISTON AREA to curl...

Here's a few pics of hoes and excavators - notice that most (if not ALL) excavators use TWO cylinders to move the BOOM; that tells me it's a STRONGER way to do it, since "HOE-ing" is what excavators are BUILT for (instead of an "after-thought")

Backhoe Stock Images, Royalty-Free Images & Vectors | Shutterstock

Gotta go for now, that curl cylinder ain't gonna put ITSELF back together... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

I knew when I bought my mill that it'd be awhile til I had either room OR $$$$ for a lathe, so some of the tooling I bought with the mill included an 8" rotary table, an 8" to 6" adapter/backing plate, and a 6" 3-jaw chuck - one use I considered (but haven't done yet) is to mill a curved (radial) slot for position adjusting on levers - you would drill a center hole and mill a radiused slot in a plate, then drill 2 holes in the lever - one hole would be the center pivot, the other could have (for example) a wing nut on a carriage bolt so you could loosen the wing nut, move the lever where you wanted it and tighten the wing nut...

Since the afore-mentioned lathe STILL hasn't happened (for the reasons mentioned) today I used the rotary table/chuck to clean up the outer seal pocket in the gland nut of the cylinder I'm working on - There were a couple of rough spots due to removing the old seal's steel cup with a cold chisel

centering was a bit tricky, but I got it close and went slow; result wasn't perfect, but good enough the seal should stay put and not leak; therefore it's good enough

The setup - - That big handle on the rotary table turns the table 4 degrees per handle rotation - A lesson immediately learned was that I should have moved the main table so the cutter was on the LEFT side of the pocket, or turned the rotation crank the OPPOSITE direction to avoid "climb" cutting

And the smoothed out pocket -

Next comes the maiden voyage of the "twisty-bendy seal putter-inner kit" - can't be any harder than the way I did it previousl, so I'm predicting a win :laughing: ...Steve

 

[Oldpath05]

("Using that reasoning, God musta REALLY liked DOCTORS (as in, making 'em RICH ) - count the muscles that might need fixing") <<<<<<Rich........ all's I can tell ya about that is when the apostle Paul ask God three times about his medical condition, God just said sit there and shut up my grace is sufficient, he had to see doctors to. More things can go wrong with the human body than you can shake a stick at. I pulled a shoulder muscle 35 years ago, after a few weeks the pain went away then when I turned 45 that shoulder muscle come back to bite me in the donkey, still gets sore today if I do much overhead welding.

I dont think the human body is a very good comparison to hydraulic equipment, hydraulic rams on machines that I seen have nowhere near the movement ability as does the human body, atleast until they can come up with the Terminator................I'LL BE BAHCK...............

You gonna have to heat the rest of the gkan nuts so's to avoid a possible disaster with a milling machine? And the torque on the rod end bolts, wow 450 ft pounds, sounds like alot to me, I mean once tight is tight it's tight, you putting thread locker on the bolts, and you must have a 3/4 drive torque wrench? Now 450 ft lbs, is that like a guy standing on a wrench that weighs 450 pds. yes no sort of?

 

[BukitCase]

Yeah, you're right about the human body bein' a LOT more flexible than machinery (at least any machinery mere mortals can afford) - Still, the basics are similar, which is what I was trying to show in answer to your # of cylinders questions...

"milling machine?" - Let's just say that I doubt if I'll tear down that rotary table setup just yet

"wow 450 ft pounds, sounds like alot to me" - Here's the actual torque specs from the manual -
Loader tilt and lift cylinders - piston bolts @ 200 to 220 ft lbs, Gr. 8, 3/4" fine thread
Hoe bucket - piston bolt @ 475-525ft lbs, Gr.8, 1" dia., fine threads
Dipper cylinder - piston bolt Gr.8 1-1/4", fine thread - 1000-1200 ft lbs (NOT a misprint)
Boom cylinders - piston bolt Gr.8 1" diameter fine thread - @ 475-525ft lbs
Gland nuts for ALL cylinders - 100 - 200 ft lbs. Locked in place with small metal screw.

the last 5 cyls I rebuilt were about 8 years ago, no thread locker used - still together...

"you must have a 3/4 drive torque wrench?" Yup, got 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" and 3/4", but one (1" drive) that goes up to 1200# starts at around $1000 - $1600, a decent torque multiplier runs $3-500; so the 500# bolts will get rattled on with my 3/4 impact, and the 1000-1200# one will get introduced to the 1" drive impact. Close enough...

All gland nuts (100-200 ft lbs) will get tightened with the adjustable 3/4" drive spanner and 3/4" torque wrench...

"Now 450 ft lbs, is that like a guy standing on a wrench that weighs 450 pds. yes no sort of?" Yup, more than SORT of - any combination of feet and pounds that multiplies out to 450 - so 450 pounds on a ONE foot long wrench, or 225 pounds on a TWO foot wrench, 150 pounds on a THREE foot wrench, etc, all will give 450 pound feet of torque.

Spent the whole day today on the mower, 25' wide fire break all around the upper pasture plus mowing the usual couple acres around the house/shop - might get the curl cylinder back together manana - once that's good, the rest can wait til I get concrete pads done for the 2 high-cube containers - need those done before the weather gets hotter... Steve

 

[Oldpath05]

"Now 450 ft lbs, is that like a guy standing on a wrench that weighs 450 pds. yes no sort of?" Yup, more than SORT of - any combination of feet and pounds that multiplies out to 450 - so 450 pounds on a ONE foot long wrench, or 225 pounds on a TWO foot wrench, 150 pounds on a THREE foot wrench, etc, all will give 450 pound feet of torque. Steve

Finally an explanation even I can understand, it's a miracle.

1000-1200 ft lbs<< and I thought 450 was high, guess bigger the bolt bigger the ft lbs. Curious to what this wrench looks like>>>>("All gland nuts (100-200 ft lbs) will get tightened with the adjustable 3/4" drive spanner and 3/4" torque wrench...")

Since your a do it yourselfer, you going to make the foam, pour concrete your self and of float the concrete, before it gets cold.

 

[BukitCase]

"Finally an explanation even I can understand, it's a miracle" -
'bout time, I wuz startin' to think I'd completely lost it

"Curious to what this wrench looks like" - Looks just like this one

Amazon.com: OTC 1266 Adjustable Gland Nut Wrench: Automotive

'cept mine came from my one of my Case parts sources

Equipment Parts Source, Aftermarket, Case, Backhoe, Crawler, Loader, Dozer, Tractor Search results for: 'CAS1456'

"Since your a do it yourselfer, you going to make the foam, pour concrete your self and of float the concrete, before it gets cold." -

Yup, 'cept hopefully it'll be a "do it OURselfer" - one of the millwrights (now retired) that useta be on my crew (and his "young and still bullet-proof" son) may help - he's used my cement mixer more than I have, so he volunteered a couple weeks ago when he came over.

Won't know til I get the laser level out, but it's lookin' like about 160 bags of 60 lb. Sakrete (I think my "Black belt in lifting" is turnin' into a "black and blue" belt - once I get the FEL curl cylinder done, it'll be strong enough to stay put with 20-30 bags at a time - that way it can sit next to the mixer on ONE side, forms on the OTHER side, that puts the bags at chest height and I can just slash 'em with a razor knife and dump 'em in. Add a hose and a 2x4 bull float, and "bob's yer uncle"

Got things about ready to go back together on that cylinder (finally), so maybe some pics later tonite or manana... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

Got a little more done on the cylinder fix this afternoon -
All the relevant pieces, including the new steel tube that brings the rear port up next to the front port (including 2 "convert-a-flare" fittings - basically a swage fitting whose ferrule is shaped like a JIC flare - saves having to TIG a separate piece and/or flare the actual tubing -

The old and new tubes; nut on the old one didn't wanna come off, so replaced tube AND the ORB/JIC elbow at the rear of the cylinder -

The new tube @ 90 degrees - different materials and thicknesses take a different amount of "over-bending" to get them to stay @ the angle you want; this one is 1/2" .050" wall IIRC, and it needed just over 3 degrees "over" to end up @ 90 - - For 1/2" steel and stainless tube, a roller type bender is MUCH easier and does a nicer job - this is the one I use

RIDGID 3848 Model 68 Heavy-Duty Pipe Bender, 1/2-inch Tubing Bender - Hand Tool Sets - Amazon.com

I might not have spent that much, but I have a LOT of projects coming up that will use 1/2" tube and some that want 3/4"...

Here's the stuff I'll use to keep the outer dust seal in place (just a precaution since I took a teeny bit out of the pocket when doing the cleanup on the gland) -

Got the crossover hoses (between the 2 curl cylinders) hooked up on one end - -

And this (the two JIC caps come off) is where they go, AFTER all the guts are back in the cylinder and the mechanical linkage is hooked back up -

That's it for tonight, should be finished tomorrow... Steve

Wow, only 7 more to go but probably not till I need the hoe; too many other "nice weather" things yellin' at me

 

[BukitCase]

Well, as usual the older I get the faster I USED to be - did get a bit done tho, here's the rod with all new seals, piston torqued to 210 ft lbs -
Gland nut, new outer wiper and front O rings showing - - BTW, that seal installation tool kit changed that operation from at least a half hour, down to about 30 SECONDS...

New piston seals -

Rod went back into the cylinder barrel only as far as the belled out section, then got stubborn - -

So I got MORE stubborn, managed to tilt the cylinder bellcrank back far enough to get the pin end of the rod pinned into its location, then the comealong to force the bellcrank FORWARD, forcing the piston further into the barrel.


Tomorrow I'll remove the comealong and that long linkage bar; that'll give me room to slide the gland up to the cylinder barrel and get it screwed in and torqued - after that I can use the hydraulics to even things up and reconnect all the linkages without dumping fluid on the floor... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

Today went well; here's the gland nut, tightened and torqued to 150 ft lbs -

Good thing the head of my 3/4" torque wrench isn't any wider -

Took two comealongs and some straps to pull the linkage down far enough to retract the cylinder and get both pins replaced -

"nuther use for the "Tinker toys", let me get that 100 lb. vise out of the receiver and back on a hand truck with minimal pain -

Proof of the pudding - I topped off the hydraulic fluid, raised the bucket and exercised the curl a few times, ran it to both extremes of travel and HELD it there against the relief - not a drop of leakage (that woulda lost at LEAST a cup of fluid thru the gland BEFORE the rebuild)

That's gonna be the end of hydraulic rebuilds til the pads are done for the two 40' Hi-Cube containers - next I need to stake out the second pad and set up forms for both, Then I can get an average depth to figure out how much Sakrete to get... Steve

 

[Oldpath05]

I see I'm way behind on this fix it rebuild it and make it thread, I might get up to speed, maybe. Nice job on the cylinder repair, I can see it was way above my pay grade, what I can tell it looked like about a straight ahead 8 hr job, now do that per cylinder X 13= to long, good thing the rest are in a so so good non leaking working order.

Now on the the slab pour, when I had mine done I spent a lot of time leveling the sand to get a 6" dept, 26'x36' took me several days of scrapping, backfilling, raking and measuring. Then I call the cement guy to pour the slab, he verified the dept said I got it real close, he ordered the cement, I took the day off and watched him and his crew do what I thought was a great job and fast.

 

[BukitCase]

"Nice job on the cylinder repair, I can see it was way above my pay grade, what I can tell it looked like about a straight ahead 8 hr job"

Yup, maybe even a bit longer than that; been several years since the previous 5 I did, kinda got out of practice...

"good thing the rest are in a so so good non leaking working order. "

I wish - that big one that gets torqued to 1000-1200 pounds leaks almost as much as the one I just did, but I need the loader more than the hoe for a while, so the rest will probly wait til crappy weather is back -

"Then I call the cement guy to pour the slab, he verified the dept said I got it real close, he ordered the cement, I took the day off and watched him and his crew do what I thought was a great job and fast."

That's pretty much what I did for the slab in the wood shop; unfortunately the one I'm ABANDONING is too small for any contractors to be interested in, and I'm re-thinking the cost/effort thang - I want those 2 containers in their final resting place so I can get back into the actual TITLE of this thread again, so I'm gonna order a pair of 6x8 rectangular tubes (cheaper than H beams and plenty strong) and just set the containers up with a tube under each end - both ends of where the containers will go are 5" lower on the downhill side, so I'll just weld up some 5" "blocks" out of 2.5" square tube so they'll come out level.

Cost of doing that is less than Sakrete by a little, and less LABOR by a LOT (and since it's ME that'll be sharing in that labor this is IMPORTANT)

BTW, the rebuilt cylinder didn't leak a drop when I added one of the 6 foot tinker toys onto the loader and moved a Wisconsin V4 off the little trailer and into one of the containers using the tinker toys as a gin pole - BEFORE the rebuild it'd have dumped about a QUART of fluid just doin' that...

Got some family stuff that needs taken care of and some cleanup, then need to order the steel and prod my container mover guy so I can get those last two containers settled in... Steve