Cold start issues, which fluid needs a heater?

[JimRB]

That thing with the 4 lines coming out of it is the fuel distributor. There could be a pump feeding the fuel distributor with low pressure. Low pressure could be defined as 5-50 PSI. Inside the fuel distributor will be another pump or two that creates high pressure. 1,200-1,500 bar is a common pressure. 1 bar is about 14.5 PSI. So that could be 18,000 PSI. That is why people warm you do not crack open fuel lines without wrapping a rag around the area if possible, wear safety protection and know safety protection can be useless against that kind of pressure.

The injectors are bolted to the head. The suggestion was to crack open a line to see if any diesel gets pumped out. If no gets pumped out, which you are describing, then the pump internally is clogged. Heat may let the ice and diesel thaw and dissolve. Setting a 100 watt light bulb with a reflector aimed at the injector pump may clean up the clumps of crud in the pump but will do little to clear up the clumps that may be in the lines from the pump to the injectors.

If you do a Google search for Bosch VE pump manual you may find a manual to download for free. It explains the concept of diesel pumps and distributors. Lots of tractors that were made from the mid 1950's until the diesel had increased pollution regulations used that style of pump and distributor. Bosch VE diesel fuel-injection pump manual. - 4x4 Community Forum has a link to the manual that may explain more accurately than my summary.

 

[grm61]

Ok ... please view the attached pics. I checked for fuel, and I'm getting fuel to the pump. I don't know the proper nomenclature for these mechanical parts, so please fill me in. I'm guessing these are the injectors ... those 4 nuts/bolts that are right together and would shoot fuel up into the fuel lines. So, I'm calling that the "injector block" ... I'm getting fuel in there, because when I opened them up, there is fuel. I took the "injector bolts" apart and they did not appear to have any foreign material in them. When I turn the key to the "acc" position, I hear the fuel pump clicking like normal, and it is working to fill that "injector block" ... but is there a second pump? Something that moves the fuel at high PSI that maybe isn't working? Is it inside that "injector block" (again, that's what I'm calling it because I have no idea what its called).. ? When I crack those bolts/nuts, fuel "seeps" but never did "shoot" out.

I'm still getting absolutely ZERO fuel up into those lines because there's isn't a puff of smoke coming when I crank her.

Oh, and please, feel free to "Doctor" my photo to properly label the components I need to be involved with.

I'm open to suggestions...

I'm wondering if... if there is an internal high pressure pump, that it could have been damaged by the contaminated fuel, or the moisture... or something like that ...?

View attachment 414654

View attachment 414655

OK, the deal with the banjo fitting on it is part your injection pump, those steel lines that come out of that block..if you follow those to the cylinder head, your injectors are at the end of those lines.

I can't really see very well, but i'm thinking that electical plug in just to the front of your filter bowl probably goes to the fuel shutoff soleniod.
I can't see where it winds up....The fuel shutoff soleniod is what shuts the fuel off out of the injector pump when you turn the key off to kill the tractor...Or lets fuel go to the injectors when the key is on.

Try and find out if that plug goes to that fuel shutoff solenoid, if it does check for power and ground....put your hand on it have someone turn the key to on, see if you can feel it click in your hand...

Could be that solenoid...You will have to determine if it is working.
If no power to that, you will have to check relays, and ignition switch.
If all that is working than I would say injection pump, but you have to eliminate that fuel cutoff solenoid first, could be something as simple as a relay that supplies power to that unit.

 

[TSO]

Thanks Jim, I'll try the light bulb overnight... Have to wait to charge up the battery anyhow, it's dead now.

GRM ... Yes there's a clicking at that solenoid, it's right behind the fuel filter. The fuel line goes out of the filter housing, to that solenoid/bladder... Then to the distribution block.

...

Now, I'm assuming that the high pressure pump is powered by the engine right after starting ... And not electric? Seems like it would take a lot of electric energy to pressurized it that much

 

[IslandTractor]

Thanks Jim, I'll try the light bulb overnight...

If you are just using a light bulb I'd make sure to pack blankets or other insulation and windbreaks around it. And, while it may seem obvious, don't forget to use a 100W incandescent bulb in this era of fluorescents/halogens and LEDs. A 1500W space heater would be even better. Or perhaps borrow your wife/daughter's hair dryer and use it for an hour or two. Didn't you mention a torpedo heater?? Maybe try that in the AM as well for an hour or so.

 

[BLUE ME]

i have inline block heater and i don't need glow plugs.
Been down to -40 c
works so far
hope it warms up to 0

 

[TSO]

If you are just using a light bulb I'd make sure to pack blankets or other insulation and windbreaks around it. And, while it may seem obvious, don't forget to use a 100W incandescent bulb in this era of fluorescents/halogens and LEDs. A 1500W space heater would be even better. Or perhaps borrow your wife/daughter's hair dryer and use it for an hour or two. Didn't you mention a torpedo heater?? Maybe try that in the AM as well for an hour or so.

I actually had a heat gun pointed at it for about a hour earlier but that didn't help. I'll be using one of our hatching bulbs ... It's like 150w and red. I'll put it under the block and a blanket over the bay. It is in the barn so no wind issues.

 

[Dave M7040]

Your pictures clarify a lot.
There is only one high pressure injection pump as your photo with the banjo bolt shows. The banjo bolt is on the side of the injection pump.
It is driven by a gear from the front of the engine and is only powered when cranking or running.
Your note on the photo asking "are these the injectors," no they are the individual lines going to each injector.
I am with grm61 in being suspicious of the fuel cutoff solenoid as a possible culprit.
Water getting inside it and restricting movement of the solenoid plunger would certainly explain the cold weather aspect of your problems.
Why not try the tests he suggests and if there is no movement heat it with a hair dryer and check again.
The 4 lines you have above the banjo bolt which go to the injectors would only have fuel coming out after loosening each fitting at a time when the engine is cranking or running.
The amount of fuel which will come out will depend on the throttle position but will be a small amount.
Unlike a hydraulic line with the possibility of discharging a large volume at high pressure the pressure in the injector lines will only be high when restricted as when going directly to an injector which is closed and this high pressure forces it to open and spray fuel for the engine. Unless you hold your hand around the loosened fitting and crank the engine I don't see a safety issue to see if fuel comes out as you crank. In fact this would be the simplest test to confirm proper operation of the solenoid.
Dave M7040

 

[grm61]

Thanks Jim, I'll try the light bulb overnight... Have to wait to charge up the battery anyhow, it's dead now.

GRM ... Yes there's a clicking at that solenoid, it's right behind the fuel filter. The fuel line goes out of the filter housing, to that solenoid/bladder... Then to the distribution block.

...

Now, I'm assuming that the high pressure pump is powered by the engine right after starting ... And not electric? Seems like it would take a lot of electric energy to pressurized it that much

The injection pump is gear driven off the motor..I didn't know you had not been able to heat it up with a torpedeo heater or anything....
in any case at this point, if getting it warm somehow does not work, it should put you in warranty territory if your not getting any fuel out of the injection pump.

 

[TSO]

Your pictures clarify a lot.
There is only one high pressure injection pump as your photo with the banjo bolt shows. The banjo bolt is on the side of the injection pump.
It is driven by a gear from the front of the engine and is only powered when cranking or running.
I am with grm61 in being suspicious of the fuel cutoff solenoid as a possible culprit.
Water getting inside it and restricting movement of the solenoid plunger would certainly explain the cold weather aspect of your problems.
Why not try the tests he suggests and if there is no movement heat it with a hair dryer and check again.
The 4 lines you have above the banjo bolt which go to the injectors would only have fuel coming out after loosening each fitting at a time when the engine is cranking or running.
The amount of fuel which will come out will depend on the throttle position but will be a small amount.
Unlike a hydraulic line with the possibility of discharging a large volume at high pressure the pressure in the injector lines will only be high when restricted as when going directly to an injector which is closed and this high pressure forces it to open and spray fuel for the engine. Unless you hold your hand around the loosened fitting and crank the engine I don't see a safety issue to see if fuel comes out as you crank. In fact this would be the simplest test to confirm proper operation of the solenoid.
Dave M7040

Thanks for the clarification Dave ... Yeah, I checked that solenoid earlier, it is clicking, and it is moving fluid to the distribution block, so the problem has to be at the block/pump.

I should have clarified too, when I was monkeying around I did have that banjo bolt off for access so most of the fuel came out of the block. It did refill itself after I reconnected and turned on the ignition, so it's getting fuel to that point at least

 

[TSO]

The injection pump is gear driven off the motor..I didn't know you had not been able to heat it up with a torpedeo heater or anything....
in any case at this point, if getting it warm somehow does not work, it should put you in warranty territory if your not getting any fuel out of the injection pump.

Question... If I take that side cover off, the plate facing us in the pic with 4 bolts... Will that allow better access to find any gunk or debris I'm there? Is there anything under tension in there that may pop out if I remove it?

 

[grm61]

Question... If I take that side cover off, the plate facing us in the pic with 4 bolts... Will that allow better access to find any gunk or debris I'm there? Is there anything under tension in there that may pop out if I remove it?

I don't know, I don't think I would take the Pump apart for fear of voiding the warranty on that...That is a spendy unit, try and get it warm, charge the battery give it a quick try, if no action crack those lines at the injector at the head, not down on the pump, one at a time while cranking ,that will let air out if there is air in there and you can check for fuel.

If it has fuel and pressure it should run..get it thawed out first.

 

[GManBart]

If you need to move the tractor, you might be able to lift the FEL and 3pt by cranking the engine while moving the controls for them....that usually works for the 3pt, but I'm not sure on the FEL.

 

[Billrog]

Pulling that plate isn't going to help you. What gmr61 said.

 

[Coyote machine]

I can't believe this discussion is still going on with all kinds of different ways of doing what I suggested pages ago. You have already verified fuel at the base of the injection pump, where the four steel lines lead to the injectors, at the cylinder head. Crack open each injector, one at a time, when the battery is restored to full charge, and see if any fuel is being delivered to the individual injectors. Once you have done that simple task you can then track back, if needed, to see what may be causing lack of fuel to your engine.
Everything else is a waste of time until you determine fuel delivery at the injectors, or not. Without fuel to the head via the injectors your engine will NOT start.
Do NOT remove any plates, or anything other than cracking the injector nuts at the injector/head interface.
Report back results.
Forget everything else for now, warm it as possible, charge the battery fully, crank the engine, and verify presence of fuel at each injector, or lack of fuel, then tell us your results.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

As Harry said, you have fuel issues. Pull out you clean out screen and use it to size cardboard to block off airflow to help keep heat in the engine when running if needed. Cut you existing fuel with diesel #1. A 50/50 blend should be good for your temp. Be aware that as you use more diesel #1, the engine makes less and less heat, thus the cardboard. Cut a hole in the middle of the cardboard as needed.

 

[Coyote machine]

As Harry said, you have fuel issues. Pull out you clean out screen and use it to size cardboard to block off airflow to help keep heat in the engine when running if needed. Cut you existing fuel with diesel #1. A 50/50 blend should be good for your temp. Be aware that as you use more diesel #1, the engine makes less and less heat, thus the cardboard. Cut a hole in the middle of the cardboard as needed.

Most have stated fuel issues; and it isn't starting or running, only cranking currently- no fuel to the engine based on what the OP described.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

TSO, I've been on an iPhone and finally read the other posts. Your injectors or injector pump are likely waxed up.

1) Mix 50/50 diesel #1 (or kerosene) in your fuel tank. Diesel #1 runs colder than diesel number 2 and is less efficient and has less lubrication abilities, so pull out your radiator clean out screen and size a bit of cardboard to block airflow to the radiator. Once running, cut a hole in it as needed to get the right airflow through the radiator to keep the tractor in the happy part of operating temperatures.

2) Next, manually prime your fuel filter. Then dump the contents. Do this twice. What you're doing is purging the old fuel for the new mix.

3) Fill your fuel filter with straight diesel #1 and prime. What you're doing to attempting to dilute the number 2 diesel that is gelled in your injector pump and injector tips.

4) Now point your torpedo heater at the fuel filter and injector rail and injectors side of the engine and do your level best to get it as warmed up as you can. We're talking warm to the touch. What you're doing is attempting to melt the wax in the field. Use a paint peeler heat gun if needed. Make a wind break with a tarp as needed. Don't set anything on fire and don't melt any plastic, wires or rubber fuel lines. Be careful.

5) With the torpedo heater still on, things as toasty as you can make it, only then attempt to start the engine once you're satisfied that you have warmed things up enough to melt the waxed fuel.

6) Run the engine with the torpedo heater still on for a bit. Remember our problem is wax and we want all the wax to melt and all purge and get burned in the combustion cylinders.

Than say, "That Eric…."

And if after all this, it still doesn't start, say, "That Eric!" Throw something, and figure out how to get the machine warmed up enough to melt the wax either by waiting for a warm March day, manually cracking open the injector rail and purging the bad fuel, hiring a family of vagrants to group hug your tractor until it warms up (remember to feed them as it may take awhile) or getting it into a warm shop overnight to thaw out.

Also before cranking over, check the dipstick and make sure your crank case isn't filling up with fuel. I don't want you to hydrolock. If the oil level is high, drop the oil and fill up with 0 or 5W30 or 40.

There is another problem that can happen when people add anti-gel. Guys in colder climates don't have the local gas stations trying to mix fuel for winter, and so they aren't as likely to see the problem in the video. What happens is that the local gas station adds a fuel additive to their fuel to prevent gelling, then the customer adds an additive, and poof we have what is in the video. For simplicity reasons, I like to simply cut diesel #2 fuel as needed with diesel # 1 until the engine is running on nothing but number 1 diesel as it gets colder and colder.

 

[Dave M7040]

TSO
Not wanting to add more grief to you but I am concerned that you have introduced air into the injection pump and lines by the opening up of the injection lines.
This air will prevent the pressure from building up enough to open the injectors.
First check if your manual shows how to bleed the injection system. It likely does as you can create the same problem running out of fuel.
Basically, in addition to getting fuel into the filter and up to the banjo bolt, the injection lines need to be loosened at the injectors as the engine cranks. It usually takes two to do this as you close up the line after fuel appears.
Dave M7040

 

[skyhook]

TSO, the "distribution block" as you put it, is called "The Injection Pump".
Only when the engine is turning will this Injection Pump supply fuel. (the faster it turns, the better).
You don't loosen the nuts at the Injection Pump Lines but rather at the other end of those lines.
Only one at a time also, this is where your 'Injectors' are. (think spark plugs).
You need a good strong battery and a good cranking speed, loosen "one" of the nuts at the line where the
injector is (think spark plug) and have someone turn over the engine until you see fuel coming out there,
then re-tighten the nut.
Also, you said you emptied the Injection Pump, if it refilled itself like you stated, your fuel solenoid is good.

 

[skyhook]

You got in just before me, Dave...