depratt_equip
Platinum Member
I agree.....
CK20 HST tranny issues
- Thread starter mathey
- Start date
- Views: 20112
IH3444
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Messages
- 2,556
Donny, and DePratt, thanks for straighting me out on this issue. Those hours are just through the roof for splitting that CK20 apart. Why Mathey did you take the CK20 to Wertz in the first place?, after buying from the Bedford dealer? Kioti sounds like they did help out, and authorized quite a bit towards getting this problem resolved.
coasterez
Banned
Hmmm.... Wonder if Wertz is lurking in the background, listening to all this? Anyway, good luck, Mark. I hope you, Kioti, and Wertz can work something out to make it fair. Hopefully, going forward, Wertz will do right by all of us.
MotorSeven
Elite Member
Mathey,
Thanks for the detailed bill. You definatly have a dealer that is sticking it to you. Heck, the entire engine could have been changed out in less time. You should write a letter to Kioti, cc them the bill and ask them if their dealer was justified in this amount of time for the repair. I realize that normal flat rate charges do not cover actual time to repair, but your case seems way over the top. Don't just let this lay, go after a fair deal from Kioti corporate. Good luck!
RD
Thanks for the detailed bill. You definatly have a dealer that is sticking it to you. Heck, the entire engine could have been changed out in less time. You should write a letter to Kioti, cc them the bill and ask them if their dealer was justified in this amount of time for the repair. I realize that normal flat rate charges do not cover actual time to repair, but your case seems way over the top. Don't just let this lay, go after a fair deal from Kioti corporate. Good luck!
RD
IslandTractor
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2005
- Messages
- 16,647
- Location
- Prudence Island, RI
- Tractor
- 2007 Kioti DK40se HST, Woods BH
<font color="blue"> You should write a letter to Kioti, cc them the bill </font>
Mathey,
I second the strategy of sending a concise letter to Kioti customer relations with cc to the CEO's office along with your bill. Although messages on TBN get some attention and a phone call sometimes helps, I find that there is nothing quite like a polite but firm business letter to get action from the corporate level. All companies have mechanisms for dealing with letters that are far better developed than for dealing with individual phone calls or emails.
I would also suggest that you resist the urge (justified by the way) to rant. A simple letter stating your disappointment and repeating the basic timeline, outcome and bill would be most effective.
I also hope the prodigal CK20 is rewarming your spirits now that it is home. Don't let the dealer bust up a good relationship with your tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Best of luck.
Mathey,
I second the strategy of sending a concise letter to Kioti customer relations with cc to the CEO's office along with your bill. Although messages on TBN get some attention and a phone call sometimes helps, I find that there is nothing quite like a polite but firm business letter to get action from the corporate level. All companies have mechanisms for dealing with letters that are far better developed than for dealing with individual phone calls or emails.
I would also suggest that you resist the urge (justified by the way) to rant. A simple letter stating your disappointment and repeating the basic timeline, outcome and bill would be most effective.
I also hope the prodigal CK20 is rewarming your spirits now that it is home. Don't let the dealer bust up a good relationship with your tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Best of luck.
What an outrage of overcharging! As has been pointed out, to put that hydro unit in in 11 hours in a tractor that was already split is ridiculous. They're charging you for their ignorance.
What a shame anyone has to put up with this type of business practice, but as you say, what is one to do.
Cudos to Kioti for allowing anything, when in their published warranty, they would not have had to pay a dime.
Kioti may or may not approach this dealer regarding this issue, but it's a cinch they won't unless you mail them your concerns.
I know they don't condone this type of dealer behaviour.
I could see an hour or so extra, but not these kinds of times stated in that bill.
John
What a shame anyone has to put up with this type of business practice, but as you say, what is one to do.
Cudos to Kioti for allowing anything, when in their published warranty, they would not have had to pay a dime.
Kioti may or may not approach this dealer regarding this issue, but it's a cinch they won't unless you mail them your concerns.
I know they don't condone this type of dealer behaviour.
I could see an hour or so extra, but not these kinds of times stated in that bill.
John
wallace
Veteran Member, Approved Advertiser
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Wertz is my "local dealer"
they've been around a long time, and a Kioti dealer for at least 3 years (that I know of)
I just left a message with the territory guy, let's see if he calls me back )</font>
Did the dealer give you the territory guys name and number?
Does the dealer know your are upset?
How do you think you were treated by the dealer?
Do you think that the whole thing of down time was caused by the lack of parts from Kioti or was it the dealer just taking their time?
Do you think that this is Kiotis or the dealers fault?
they've been around a long time, and a Kioti dealer for at least 3 years (that I know of)
I just left a message with the territory guy, let's see if he calls me back )</font>
Did the dealer give you the territory guys name and number?
Does the dealer know your are upset?
How do you think you were treated by the dealer?
Do you think that the whole thing of down time was caused by the lack of parts from Kioti or was it the dealer just taking their time?
Do you think that this is Kiotis or the dealers fault?
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Did the dealer give you the territory guys name and number? )</font>
no, he wanted to handle it from his end first, it wasn't till the end that he told me to send an email to Kioiti
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Does the dealer know your are upset? )</font>
not yet...up until now he had me convinced that he was doing everything to help me out, and that Kioti wasn't playing along
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( How do you think you were treated by the dealer? )</font>
again, up until now, I thought everything was fine and that he was "going to bat" for me with Kioti
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Do you think that the whole thing of down time was caused by the lack of parts from Kioti or was it the dealer just taking their time? )</font>
I was in contact with the dealer almost once a week. It took them about a week to even look at it. Then he told me what the issues were and that it was going to take about 30 hours to repair. Then it took probably a week or two to get the photos down to NC. Then would say one part came in, then another. They finally ended up getting the whole hydro when 2 of their guys were in NC for training and they brought it home with them. So to answer your question, I honestly don't know. If Wertz wanted to put me on the back burner to deal with one of "their" customers, I'm fine with that, but if they think they're going to charge me a "fine" or penalty because I chose to buy elsewhere, they are sadly mistaken.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Do you think that this is Kiotis or the dealers fault? )</font>
At this point, a bit of both, and partially my fault for trusting both to handle this to MY satisfaction. I trusted Wertz to do battle for me with Kioti. Kioti appears to have helped, but seems to be letting Wertz give me the "shaft" (pun intended!) with no backlash as a dealer from the manufacturer.
I was looking back thru emails and such and we went over this warranty issue so many times over the past few years. I just find it hard to believe that a dealer would do this and that a manufacturer would let this happen. I guess we get tainted here on TBN because we hear from the good dealers so often, it's hard to imagine otherwise.
Again, this is far from over...and when it is, I hope I'll be making a huge apology to Kioti, for any negativity on my part.
no, he wanted to handle it from his end first, it wasn't till the end that he told me to send an email to Kioiti
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Does the dealer know your are upset? )</font>
not yet...up until now he had me convinced that he was doing everything to help me out, and that Kioti wasn't playing along
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( How do you think you were treated by the dealer? )</font>
again, up until now, I thought everything was fine and that he was "going to bat" for me with Kioti
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Do you think that the whole thing of down time was caused by the lack of parts from Kioti or was it the dealer just taking their time? )</font>
I was in contact with the dealer almost once a week. It took them about a week to even look at it. Then he told me what the issues were and that it was going to take about 30 hours to repair. Then it took probably a week or two to get the photos down to NC. Then would say one part came in, then another. They finally ended up getting the whole hydro when 2 of their guys were in NC for training and they brought it home with them. So to answer your question, I honestly don't know. If Wertz wanted to put me on the back burner to deal with one of "their" customers, I'm fine with that, but if they think they're going to charge me a "fine" or penalty because I chose to buy elsewhere, they are sadly mistaken.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Do you think that this is Kiotis or the dealers fault? )</font>
At this point, a bit of both, and partially my fault for trusting both to handle this to MY satisfaction. I trusted Wertz to do battle for me with Kioti. Kioti appears to have helped, but seems to be letting Wertz give me the "shaft" (pun intended!) with no backlash as a dealer from the manufacturer.
I was looking back thru emails and such and we went over this warranty issue so many times over the past few years. I just find it hard to believe that a dealer would do this and that a manufacturer would let this happen. I guess we get tainted here on TBN because we hear from the good dealers so often, it's hard to imagine otherwise.
Again, this is far from over...and when it is, I hope I'll be making a huge apology to Kioti, for any negativity on my part.
Donnyj
Platinum Member
I'm just thinking out loud here, but Kioti was responsible for the part that was warranty. The labor, being out of warranty, is totally up to the dealer. I don't see how Kioti has any hand in the labor cost out of warranty. The dealer is free to charge whatever they want, be it fair or not. Does tractor repairs have any set flat rate time for out of warranty repairs like the automobile business use? We have a warranty labor rate that we must charge the manufacture and a c.o.d. labor rate for charging customers out of warranty. Either way, we have a flat rate labor time for either. Warranty time is much less as far as labor time and hourly labor rate. So really, Kioti can not make the dealer charge a certain rate or charge a certain time for repair if it is out of warranty. Is this a correct assumption? I have never put a hydro unit in........ but, I bet I could do it in under 30 hours. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I guess Kioti could put a little pressure on them to adjust the bill, but I don't really believe Kioti has any responsibility for out of warranty repairs as far as what the dealer charges. I still believe though Kioti should address this coupler issue somehow. Interesting to see how it turns out. Good luck!
Batche33
Silver Member
Well said DonnyJ.
Rick, I believe Wertz's territory rep is the same as yours.
Our rep was here yesterday, he said Maryland wasn't in his area.
I believe he said Tom had that area.
I have more to say on this subject (warranty & dealers), but I need to make sure I word it correctly.
Rick, I believe Wertz's territory rep is the same as yours.
Our rep was here yesterday, he said Maryland wasn't in his area.
I believe he said Tom had that area.
I have more to say on this subject (warranty & dealers), but I need to make sure I word it correctly.
IslandTractor
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2005
- Messages
- 16,647
- Location
- Prudence Island, RI
- Tractor
- 2007 Kioti DK40se HST, Woods BH
<font color="blue"> I guess Kioti could put a little pressure on them to adjust the bill, but I don't really believe Kioti has any responsibility for out of warranty repairs as far as what the dealer charges. </font>
Donny,
I don't think anyone would argue that Kioti has any technical responsibility for the labor portion of the warranty repair in a situation like this. However, they'd be fools to allow dealers to rip customers off. As a customer, I'd like to think Kioti does some due diligence on their dealer network and maintains standards so that I will not be thrown to the wolves the minute the warranty expires. Clearly they have leverage with the dealers and it is in their self interest to insure they don't get a reputation like "Kioti tractors are great but the dealer network is patchy, buyer beware". That sort of reputation (which I think is truer than any of us Kioti fans would like to believe) will hurt Kioti. I understand it is a free country and a dealer can (try to) charge me $1000 for an oil change if he wants. However it is surely not in Kioti's interest to work with business people who would grossly overcharge Kioti's customers for service after the warranty period. I understand warranty work will never make dealers rich but I doubt dealers need to triple or quadruple the flat rate hours to make a fair profit. Maybe the dealer involved here is usually fine and this episode is an exception. Maybe the service manager just totaled up the hours without using any judgment to reduce charges related to the shops own inefficiency. Maybe. I hope Kioti does follow up and that someday soon Mathey posts that the company did stand up for him (and us).
An additional point that is not Kioti specific: The internet and especially forums like TBN make marketing a whole new world. There are both big opportunities and pitfalls for business. When someone posts either a good or bad experience on TBN, it is like having every individual customer interaction being observed by hundreds of "flys on the wall". Little problems that in days past would be quietly swept under the rug are now likely to end up with careful scrutiny by at least hundreds of potential future customers for months and months to come. Companies need to deal with this in ways that they did not in years past. No one expects a lifetime warranty or for each and every dealer interaction to be a lovefest but we do expect the company to maintain a trustworthy and fair dealer network. That is the critical perception that companies like Kioti must protect. In this regard, the reputations of companies like Kioti and Mahindra have more at stake on TBN than Kubota or Deere. The older companies are so well established they can weather TBN storms more easily. Let's hope Kioti recognizes this and doesn't have its head in the sand.
Donny,
I don't think anyone would argue that Kioti has any technical responsibility for the labor portion of the warranty repair in a situation like this. However, they'd be fools to allow dealers to rip customers off. As a customer, I'd like to think Kioti does some due diligence on their dealer network and maintains standards so that I will not be thrown to the wolves the minute the warranty expires. Clearly they have leverage with the dealers and it is in their self interest to insure they don't get a reputation like "Kioti tractors are great but the dealer network is patchy, buyer beware". That sort of reputation (which I think is truer than any of us Kioti fans would like to believe) will hurt Kioti. I understand it is a free country and a dealer can (try to) charge me $1000 for an oil change if he wants. However it is surely not in Kioti's interest to work with business people who would grossly overcharge Kioti's customers for service after the warranty period. I understand warranty work will never make dealers rich but I doubt dealers need to triple or quadruple the flat rate hours to make a fair profit. Maybe the dealer involved here is usually fine and this episode is an exception. Maybe the service manager just totaled up the hours without using any judgment to reduce charges related to the shops own inefficiency. Maybe. I hope Kioti does follow up and that someday soon Mathey posts that the company did stand up for him (and us).
An additional point that is not Kioti specific: The internet and especially forums like TBN make marketing a whole new world. There are both big opportunities and pitfalls for business. When someone posts either a good or bad experience on TBN, it is like having every individual customer interaction being observed by hundreds of "flys on the wall". Little problems that in days past would be quietly swept under the rug are now likely to end up with careful scrutiny by at least hundreds of potential future customers for months and months to come. Companies need to deal with this in ways that they did not in years past. No one expects a lifetime warranty or for each and every dealer interaction to be a lovefest but we do expect the company to maintain a trustworthy and fair dealer network. That is the critical perception that companies like Kioti must protect. In this regard, the reputations of companies like Kioti and Mahindra have more at stake on TBN than Kubota or Deere. The older companies are so well established they can weather TBN storms more easily. Let's hope Kioti recognizes this and doesn't have its head in the sand.
Donnyj
Platinum Member
I'm not defending the dealer at all or even Kioti. Just posting my observations. Kioti can not check each and every dealer to be sure they are practicing good business. They can only respond when there is an issue. I'm just trying to send a message. You can't judge Kioti as a company because of a few bad dealers. Just like you can't judge other Kioti dealers because of this particular one. I happen to think that my Kioti dealer network close to me is very good. One of the reasons I bought a Kioti over other brands. We will leave that for another discussion. I'm not blaming Mathey, but he could of gotten estimates from other dealers. Consumers price shop us everyday. The labor rate will mostly reflect what the serving area will stand. All the repair facilities price check each other a couple of times of year and adjust there labor rate accordingly. Why not get a second opinion? There are some things that are out of Kioti's hands. Hopefully they will respond in this matter.
Batche33
Silver Member
Kioti knows what's going on, do they monitor this site daily?
Good god who has time for that!
If my boss knew how much time I spent on this site, she'd kill me!
When I see something that doesn't seem right here,
I give our rep a call, to get another perspective on the issue, see if he's heard something.
The territory rep is our (the dealer) best link to Kioti. We deal with 3 people at Kioti (including our rep)
That's all we need, don't waste our time with some of the others. (ALL companies have these types)
In the instance of Headachers warranty issue (you all remember that one right?)
I got a number for him to call that got him someone that could and would do something.
For the whole discussion click here
Jim's outcome
<font color="blue"> Received a call from Kioti today to promote good faith they are sending me a ck. for $75. & will be in contact with the dealer .
The money is not that big of a deal we all know that, its what happens after the sale when you need support either from a dealer or manufacture .
Would this have ended this way without TBN ?
Anyway thanks all ,need to send a ck. to red cross,
i bet you can guess for how much. regards jim
</font>
Mathey, this is just something that's been running thru my head since I've starting reading this post.
Why didn't you just take your tractor back to where you bought it?
I believe it was from Travis, right?
In the long run it may have been cheaper had you just bought it from Wertz.
(providing of course they were selling tractors when you purchased yours)
From what I've heard they are very good people.
Good god who has time for that!
If my boss knew how much time I spent on this site, she'd kill me!
When I see something that doesn't seem right here,
I give our rep a call, to get another perspective on the issue, see if he's heard something.
The territory rep is our (the dealer) best link to Kioti. We deal with 3 people at Kioti (including our rep)
That's all we need, don't waste our time with some of the others. (ALL companies have these types)
In the instance of Headachers warranty issue (you all remember that one right?)
I got a number for him to call that got him someone that could and would do something.
For the whole discussion click here
Jim's outcome
<font color="blue"> Received a call from Kioti today to promote good faith they are sending me a ck. for $75. & will be in contact with the dealer .
The money is not that big of a deal we all know that, its what happens after the sale when you need support either from a dealer or manufacture .
Would this have ended this way without TBN ?
Anyway thanks all ,need to send a ck. to red cross,
i bet you can guess for how much. regards jim
</font>
Mathey, this is just something that's been running thru my head since I've starting reading this post.
Why didn't you just take your tractor back to where you bought it?
I believe it was from Travis, right?
In the long run it may have been cheaper had you just bought it from Wertz.
(providing of course they were selling tractors when you purchased yours)
From what I've heard they are very good people.
Batche33
Silver Member
Oh yeah, that was just my opinion
Becky
Becky
I could have taken it anywhere to be repaired, just the same as I could have chosen to buy it anywhere. I honestly tried to give Wertz my business in the beginning, but they had no clue about any of the new Kioti's (CK series), and I talked "at" them several times before moving on. Again, where I ended up purchasing from or why is totally irrelevant, or at least it should be.
Would Travis have done anything different? How about any of the other 6 dealers within 100 miles of me? Should I have called each and asked if they were going to rip me off for hours? And who honestly would admit that? I'd heard good things about Wertz, and figured I'd give them a try.
Ultimately, it shouldn't matter in the least. Kioti assured us (myself and other TBN'ers) that this would not be an issue for repairs as long as the dealer was an authorized Kioti dealer. Imagine how it would be if Honda (or any other auto manufacturer) decided that you could only have work done at the place where you bought it, or you were on your own.
Again, it hasn't bern determined (and probably never will) that Wertz is penalizing me for not buying from them.
Would Travis have done anything different? How about any of the other 6 dealers within 100 miles of me? Should I have called each and asked if they were going to rip me off for hours? And who honestly would admit that? I'd heard good things about Wertz, and figured I'd give them a try.
Ultimately, it shouldn't matter in the least. Kioti assured us (myself and other TBN'ers) that this would not be an issue for repairs as long as the dealer was an authorized Kioti dealer. Imagine how it would be if Honda (or any other auto manufacturer) decided that you could only have work done at the place where you bought it, or you were on your own.
Again, it hasn't bern determined (and probably never will) that Wertz is penalizing me for not buying from them.
Donnyj
Platinum Member
I have a question. Did the repair have to be done at a Kioti dealer? They were only covering the parts in the repair. So does that mean anybody could of done the repair and Kioti would of covered the parts? I doubt Wertz was penalizing you for buying elsewhere. I could be wrong though. I think they just took advantage of you. Thats just my opinion though. Calling other dealers and getting an estimate on the repairs in question might have shed some light on this whole issue. Maybe Wertz does not feel they did anything wrong. Maybe the tech actually took that long or longer to perform the repair. That is what flat rate is for. You also mentioned Kioti assured everyone that having warranty work done would be no problem from any dealer. Kioti lived up to there end of the warranty and then some. I don't believe Kioti dealers want Kioti getting involved in what they charge for repairs, parts, or sales. Warranty work such as parts and labor, Kioti does have a say, but after warranty is gone, it is up to the individual dealer to set there own prices. That is the way it should be. Kioti can not step in and say hey that is to much for that repair. The consumer has to price shop and get estimates. Everybody price shops daily for tons of different items. No different here. Kioti did live up to there end of the warranty and then some. On another note though, they do need to address this coupler issue if it is indeed a serious problem that keeps showing up. Of course all of this is just my opinion.
MotorSeven
Elite Member
Donny,
I agree that the coupler issue needs to be addressed by Kioti. I disagree that Kioti should butt-out on a serious overcharge to one of their customers. If Kioti continued to sell tractors to a dealer that rips off the customer on warranty/out of warranty issues it damages Kioti's reputation. If the shop did not sell Kioti's then i would agree that you are at the mercy of the independant shop and estimates should be forthwith. I think Mathey went into this thinking that he was going to get a fair shake from a local dealer he wanted to do business with. I think most of us would have done the same thing...and would not have expected to pay for 30hrs of labor.
It is an eye opener for all of us no matter what color we drive to get an esimate for out of warranty work. The thought of dragging a dead tractor around on a trailer to 3-4 shops is not very appealing /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.
I wonder if Wertz is aware of the not so hot opinion the dealership is getting from a lowly Kioti thread?
RD
I agree that the coupler issue needs to be addressed by Kioti. I disagree that Kioti should butt-out on a serious overcharge to one of their customers. If Kioti continued to sell tractors to a dealer that rips off the customer on warranty/out of warranty issues it damages Kioti's reputation. If the shop did not sell Kioti's then i would agree that you are at the mercy of the independant shop and estimates should be forthwith. I think Mathey went into this thinking that he was going to get a fair shake from a local dealer he wanted to do business with. I think most of us would have done the same thing...and would not have expected to pay for 30hrs of labor.
It is an eye opener for all of us no matter what color we drive to get an esimate for out of warranty work. The thought of dragging a dead tractor around on a trailer to 3-4 shops is not very appealing /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.
I wonder if Wertz is aware of the not so hot opinion the dealership is getting from a lowly Kioti thread?
RD
Donnyj
Platinum Member
I would not of paid for 30 hours of work without getting a second opinion. Maybe that is just me. Why haul it around to 3 or 4 shops? Simply call, or in this case, get on TBN and contact well known dealers. For instance, we all know how helpful the Kioti dealers on here are, ask them for there opinions first. I'm sure Kioti is not happy with the bill Mathey received, but ultimately they can not get involved with out of warranty repairs. With all this publicity I'm sure something will come from this, but you can not expect Kioti to police the repairs that are out of warranty. You can't expect all dealers to charge the same labor rate. Some are higher and some lower. Some are going to charge more time and some less. Just like dealers can charge whatever they want for the sale of the tractor. Most are very competitive, some are way off base. All tractor manufactures are like that. You just can't have the manufacture telling dealers what they should sell the tractor for and what it should cost to repair. A dealer that is out of line, should be looked into by Kioti, but I believe Kioti's hands are tied somewhat. Again, the issue is not with Kioti, the dealer overcharge has caused the most problems for Mathey. I'm sure anyone of the Kioti dealers on here would of helped Mathey out in his decision on fixing the tractor if they knew how much Mathey was quoted. I'm sure Mathey approved the work before anything was done. I believe it was Jon Depratt told him to check the coupler up through the inspection hole before he even sent it over to the dealer. That alone would of saved 8 hours diag and teardown, according to the bill. The dealer simply took advantage of someone who was not knowledgeable.
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