CK20 HST tranny issues
- Thread starter mathey
- Start date
- Views: 20112
Dodgeram
Gold Member
Mark,
Just got back from a cruise and noticed your thread. That's a bummer man.
Let me know how things turn out.
Tom
Just got back from a cruise and noticed your thread. That's a bummer man.
Let me know how things turn out.
Tom
JayC
Veteran Member
It's been a while now and I was wondering, do you have any news on the problem?
pilonidal
Silver Member
Ditto
Nope, nothing yet....dropped it off last Tuesday, they said they might not get to it until this week...might call in and check later this week
man, you really don't appreciate your tractor until you are without it!
man, you really don't appreciate your tractor until you are without it!
cag
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2004
- Messages
- 529
- Location
- Ottawa. Ontario, Canada
- Tractor
- Grizzly 660 Kioti DK45SE Cab
Man I sure hope things work out for you and they'll fix it in a short period of time...cag
Well, I do know that I have the same issue that icisled had...my dealer is talking with Kioti to see if they are willing to help defray any/all of the labor costs associated, since this should not have happened...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Well, I do know that I have the same issue that icisled had...my dealer is talking with Kioti to see if they are willing to help defray any/all of the labor costs associated, since this should not have happened... )</font>
I sure hope you do get them to help out, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't since it IS out of labor warranty.
One thing you may read in your warranty, and it's common in tractor warranties, is that there is a possibility that you will be responsible for paying part of the cost of the part. They term it something like a wear and tear thing. I've seen it stated that way on several brand's warranties, so it's no just Kioti.
Fine print. Don't you just love it?
John
I sure hope you do get them to help out, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't since it IS out of labor warranty.
One thing you may read in your warranty, and it's common in tractor warranties, is that there is a possibility that you will be responsible for paying part of the cost of the part. They term it something like a wear and tear thing. I've seen it stated that way on several brand's warranties, so it's no just Kioti.
Fine print. Don't you just love it?
John
IslandTractor
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2005
- Messages
- 16,647
- Location
- Prudence Island, RI
- Tractor
- 2007 Kioti DK40se HST, Woods BH
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( there is a possibility that you will be responsible for paying part of the cost of the part. They term it something like a wear and tear thing. I've seen it stated that way on several brand's warranties, so it's no just Kioti.
Fine print. Don't you just love it? )</font>
I could understand a "wear and tear" clause applying to some part that was expected not to last the life of the tractor but this transmission issue seems more like a potential design or manufacturing flaw of some sort. It is admittedly too early to tell as two similar cases do not paint a clear picture but it raises some interesting issues.
Kioti would be wise, given the amount of negative publicity attached to this type of product defect to simply make good on it. In a world with TBN and other internet sources of information being highly important to their marketing of tractors, the potential loss of sales and reputation would far outweigh the relatively small number of "out of warranty" repairs they would need to eat.
Obviously there are limits to this, no one expects a lifetime warranty. However, failure of a major part such as the transmission within 3-5 years, without hint of user abuse or poor maintenance should be considered, especially if and when there are numerous similar/identical failures suggesting a design/manufacturing flaw. The impact on brand loyalty would be important for a company like Kioti that is still trying to establish itself as a major player.
On a related matter, it would be interesting to know just how carefully Kioti monitors this board. They pretty clearly have benefited from a marketing perspective by having an intenet based den of Kioti owners, probably more than any other manufacturer (except PowerTrac) as the "standard" dealer network is relatively weak in comparison to JD, MF and the other orange tractor company. That implies to me that Kioti would also be more at risk than the others if they allow negative opinions to be fostered. I think this may be especially true as TBN users likely multiply their influence by serving as "opinion leaders" with neighbors, friends etc who do not actively engage in the tractor world.
The CK20 transmission may well be no more problematic than the equivalent JD or Kubota transmission. If there is a perception that it is worse however, that would be bad for Kioti sales. To make inroads against the established brands, Kioti needs to foster both the great value and great quality image. Overcoming negative publicity can be difficult once "urban legend" is established (e.g. "the Kioti's are nice machines but they have weak transmissions"). True or not, Kioti would be wise to nip such perceived weaknesses in the bud by simply standing behind the machine. That would turn a negative (eg possible weak tranny) into a real positive (eg Kioti stands by its product even after the warranty expires). If they had to fix ten out of warranty transmissions per year, that would be very very cheap marketing coup if it avoided negative and fostered positive TBN commentary.
Fine print. Don't you just love it? )</font>
I could understand a "wear and tear" clause applying to some part that was expected not to last the life of the tractor but this transmission issue seems more like a potential design or manufacturing flaw of some sort. It is admittedly too early to tell as two similar cases do not paint a clear picture but it raises some interesting issues.
Kioti would be wise, given the amount of negative publicity attached to this type of product defect to simply make good on it. In a world with TBN and other internet sources of information being highly important to their marketing of tractors, the potential loss of sales and reputation would far outweigh the relatively small number of "out of warranty" repairs they would need to eat.
Obviously there are limits to this, no one expects a lifetime warranty. However, failure of a major part such as the transmission within 3-5 years, without hint of user abuse or poor maintenance should be considered, especially if and when there are numerous similar/identical failures suggesting a design/manufacturing flaw. The impact on brand loyalty would be important for a company like Kioti that is still trying to establish itself as a major player.
On a related matter, it would be interesting to know just how carefully Kioti monitors this board. They pretty clearly have benefited from a marketing perspective by having an intenet based den of Kioti owners, probably more than any other manufacturer (except PowerTrac) as the "standard" dealer network is relatively weak in comparison to JD, MF and the other orange tractor company. That implies to me that Kioti would also be more at risk than the others if they allow negative opinions to be fostered. I think this may be especially true as TBN users likely multiply their influence by serving as "opinion leaders" with neighbors, friends etc who do not actively engage in the tractor world.
The CK20 transmission may well be no more problematic than the equivalent JD or Kubota transmission. If there is a perception that it is worse however, that would be bad for Kioti sales. To make inroads against the established brands, Kioti needs to foster both the great value and great quality image. Overcoming negative publicity can be difficult once "urban legend" is established (e.g. "the Kioti's are nice machines but they have weak transmissions"). True or not, Kioti would be wise to nip such perceived weaknesses in the bud by simply standing behind the machine. That would turn a negative (eg possible weak tranny) into a real positive (eg Kioti stands by its product even after the warranty expires). If they had to fix ten out of warranty transmissions per year, that would be very very cheap marketing coup if it avoided negative and fostered positive TBN commentary.
DK35vince
Super Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( One thing you may read in your warranty, and it's common in tractor warranties, is that there is a possibility that you will be responsible for paying part of the cost of the part. They term it something like a wear and tear thing. )</font>
John,
That may apply to wear items like tires, brakes, belts, Etc.
But a coupler between the engine and transmission is expected to (and should) last the life of the machine.
John,
That may apply to wear items like tires, brakes, belts, Etc.
But a coupler between the engine and transmission is expected to (and should) last the life of the machine.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
</font><font color="blueclass=small">( </font><font color="blueclass=small">( One thing you may read in your warranty, and it's common in tractor warranties, is that there is a possibility that you will be responsible for paying part of the cost of the part. They term it something like a wear and tear thing. )</font>
John,
That may apply to wear items like tires, brakes, belts, Etc.
But a coupler between the engine and transmission is expected to (and should) last the life of the machine.
)</font>
Vince, I agree with you on this. There are normal items that are considered "wear and tear" items. Some folks refer to them as the "consumable" items. They would include oil filters, air filters, belts, fluids, hoses, tires and the battery. But I would not consider any part of the transmission, housing, coupling, etc to be one of those types of items. The "part" should be replaced without cost if it is under warrenty (perhaps a labor cost, if the labor portion of the warrenty is expired).
John,
That may apply to wear items like tires, brakes, belts, Etc.
But a coupler between the engine and transmission is expected to (and should) last the life of the machine.
)</font>
Vince, I agree with you on this. There are normal items that are considered "wear and tear" items. Some folks refer to them as the "consumable" items. They would include oil filters, air filters, belts, fluids, hoses, tires and the battery. But I would not consider any part of the transmission, housing, coupling, etc to be one of those types of items. The "part" should be replaced without cost if it is under warrenty (perhaps a labor cost, if the labor portion of the warrenty is expired).
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The "part" should be replaced without cost if it is under warrenty (perhaps a labor cost, if the labor portion of the warrenty is expired).
)</font>
Well, unfortunately, the labor cost in this case is quite large.
)</font>
Well, unfortunately, the labor cost in this case is quite large.
IH3444
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Messages
- 2,556
It could be something as simple as a batch of input shafts not properly heat treated, and quinched. The engineering design, and alloy of the steel shaft may be fine. I don't know if Kioti has it's own heat treating facility, or this is sub-contracted out. When I worked for the Navy, the group I worked in did the investigations for failures. Anything from rocket motor nozzles, tailhooks, Tomcat landing gear failures, jet exhaust/turbine engine, name it, we did it. Some failures were due to just a batch of parts not heated treated to "mil spec". We were one of the national labs selected to check the booster rocket steel alloy for the Challanger disaster in 1986. The material was exactly what it was suppose to be, right down to the heat treatment. This would be tough to prove without indepth investigation. With that few hours, I would hope the factory would cover the repair. Oh yea, and that's hive, not den!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Oh lordy, they're swarming after me again..... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
OK, lets say it is a batch of shafts that were not heat treated properly.
This happened to mine at 200-some hours, and Mathey's at 450 hours. How many CK20s are out there with very few hours on them? What if it took an owner over 3 years to get enough hours for the coupler to strip? Or more years to get enough stress on them that they strip out?
Then they are stuck with the whole bill.
How would anyone know if they got a tractor that had a bad coupler?
I did not abuse my tractor. I believe that Mathey did not abuse his either.
I am almost glad now that it did happen to my tractor. I would wonder when it was going to happen.
This happened to mine at 200-some hours, and Mathey's at 450 hours. How many CK20s are out there with very few hours on them? What if it took an owner over 3 years to get enough hours for the coupler to strip? Or more years to get enough stress on them that they strip out?
Then they are stuck with the whole bill.
How would anyone know if they got a tractor that had a bad coupler?
I did not abuse my tractor. I believe that Mathey did not abuse his either.
I am almost glad now that it did happen to my tractor. I would wonder when it was going to happen.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( John,
That may apply to wear items like tires, brakes, belts, Etc.
But a coupler between the engine and transmission is expected to (and should) last the life of the machine. )</font>
Oh, I agree that the part should be replaced without charge, but I'm saying that the warranty does state that some use and wear could incur a charge upon replacement. I don't think this has really been enforced, but it covers the MFG if they need it.
I was not talking at all about normal wear items such as tires, light bulbs, oil, etc.
I don't think that I can agree that all those major parts can't wear out either, but should last a very long time without problems.
John
That may apply to wear items like tires, brakes, belts, Etc.
But a coupler between the engine and transmission is expected to (and should) last the life of the machine. )</font>
Oh, I agree that the part should be replaced without charge, but I'm saying that the warranty does state that some use and wear could incur a charge upon replacement. I don't think this has really been enforced, but it covers the MFG if they need it.
I was not talking at all about normal wear items such as tires, light bulbs, oil, etc.
I don't think that I can agree that all those major parts can't wear out either, but should last a very long time without problems.
John
pilonidal
Silver Member
My worry /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif light is flashing now, I have to say. Bought mine 18 months ago and I have 120 hours on mine. Will mine make it to 200 hrs? That thought is in the back of my mind now. Doesn't mean a thing , but I purchased mine from the same dealer as Mathey. Am I in the same boat? It just hasn't hit that berg yet! Sigh, time will tell. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
TractorLegend
Platinum Member
Thought spawns invention---one could copy a stronger forged part and sell it to those with the weak part...
IH3444
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Messages
- 2,556
This depends of course on what exactly failed. Was it the shafts out of the hydro, or the coupler. There are 2 ways of making splined couplers. Either cut the splines in with a stepping broach, or the most likely manufacturing today in the modern world. Sintered powder metal, compressed under high pressure, with heat, in a mold. If possible to pin the coupler together, that would be an option, if out of warrenty. This of course depends on whether you can gain access to the coupler from an access plate. Hate to see the same coupler fail in years to come again due to either engineered undersizing, or another faulty metallurgy process. Bit of a uncertainy. I agree that a beefier part, that you know will not fail gives the owner piece of mind, and removes any doubts about the reliability of the coupler.
Rivendel
New member
Any News Yet? Got your tractor back?
Here are some similar links:
