CK20 HST tranny issues

albmn10 · Mar 7, 2006

Hello Mathey, Im truley sorry to hear about your misfortunes. I dont think anyone from kioti tbn would disagree.. Your going to find what some call " Friday afternoon" tractors in any brand, regardless of color, and that doesnt change your situation any.. I think Kioti should step up here and do something more to help you out. Ive had a similar circumstance when buying a 7500 dollar outboard motor from Mercury, long story short after a indepentent test by a third party proved my motor was highly defective, and the Mercury motor corp was a joke to deal with,basically turning their backs on me and i had to involve the attorney general, and still was faced with long court battles over a joker for a regeional rep. I finally got help from a manager from who i had bought the motor from who said it just wasnt right what Mercury was doing to me... I still ended up with another Mercury motor, because thats all i could get in exchange, but i will never buy another, even though this motor has been flawless.. Kioti should do something, perhaps extend your orginal warranty ,3 yrs parts, 2yrs labor to restore your confidence.. Buts thats just my opinion... Ive worked my ck30 very hard , i never baby the tractor, but i dont abuse it either, its proven to be very strong and reliable so far, and my research before buying this tractor proved its reliabilty to be excellent as well.. But anyway, I do hope you get satisfaction... And i hope they (Kioti) does read this post... Good luck..

mathey · Mar 7, 2006

It's true that perhaps the dealer doing the repair took longer than they should have hour wise, but who am I to determine that? Was I supposed to go to them and say "well, so-and-so can do it in half the time"...I'm sure they would have pushed the parts out the back door and told me to come and pick up the pieces (it was already split by then). Without Kioti backing me up, I really don't have a leg to stand on regarding the hours it took to repair. Again, I'll say it...this was caused by a part failure, plain and simple, and Kioti should have covered it in full. I didn't say a word when I found a bolt stuck to my drain plug at the 50 hour service, but now I'm wondering if it contributed to it's demise after all.

At this point, some two months later without contact, I have no expectations that I will ever hear from Kioti, I'm sure they're trying hard to forget about me. I'm not one to create a fuss, choosing to go the patience route, but it didn't get me very far...maybe I should have gone down the other road...at least I would have vented to them and maybe felt a little better.

It's funny, I went out tonight to move some hay again...I was almost terrified to do anything for fear of breaking the stupid thing. I give up.

Incidentally, my tractor serial number is 13...guess I should have known...

coasterez · Mar 7, 2006

Mark,

It sucks, for sure. And it's true that you probably won't hear from Kioti. Their obligation is as stated in the warranty, and unless there is a pattern in these machines, they won't do anything. I've had similar experiences with Chrysler and Ford, as I'm sure others have had with different manufacturers.

Many manufacturers do publish (for dealers eyes only) standard durations for specific repairs. If it can be determined that the dealer exceeded these (assuming they exist), Kioti might be more receptive to helping you. However, if Kioti were to respond, another full length warranty is probably the best you could hope for (plus cost reimbursements). And if it does happen again after another 2.5 years, you'd just be in the same situation again. The real question is will it happen again. Hopefully, it's just bad luck and won't strike twice in the same tranny.

Tom

MessickFarmEqu · Mar 8, 2006

I can shed some light on the cost of the repair. It very well maybe realistic that it took the guy a good 2 days to make that repair which would result in that much labor. Your going to have several hours of diagonistic time plus splitting the tractor for the tranny repair. I don't think it would be wrong to ask the dealer for a concession on that.

KiotiJohn · Mar 8, 2006

( I'll apologize now for this reply, since I know it won't be taken very well by most.)
Mathey, I'm so sorry you've been put through the wringer. It is a real shame you had to have this experience. I think we can all agree that this particular part should not have had this problem so soon in the tractor's young life. I have almost 400 hours on mine now, without that problem, but who knows?

I have no problem with your post; it tells the true story of what happened. Kioti, of course, is responsible to provide what they said they would. What a shame the dealer couldn't have done more to take care of you rather than charging you full price for something he/she surelly understands almost had to be defective from the beginning.

I think Kioti, and most other brands, have a lot of issues with the way they respond to this type of problem. I find it the case in so many instances, with so many products. What a shame we all have to go through it in a so-called sophisticated industrial country that is now mostly non-industrial and non-service.

I hope you have no further problems. I can surely understand your timidness to operate as usual after this trouble.

John

Egon · Mar 8, 2006

Daryl:

Two months is much too long for anyone using a tractor to make a living.

On a working farm two months could mean the loss of an entire crop.

Egon

depratt_equip · Mar 8, 2006

Anything can happen to machinery in this man made machinery world. I don't feel any other tractor company would have handled it differently to be honest. Hate to hear you have changed your feeling toward Kioti, as they are a great tractor, and great company to deal for. You bill does sound a little large for a 4 hour flat-rate job, which is dealer caused not Kioti, and it should only take a guy 10 minutes to look up under the tractor though the inspection hole to see the coupler is stripped.. I’m still curious why it took 2 months….

I can understand you being upset... I probably would be to. But look at it from Kiotis side... where should they draw the line? If they do it for one guy are they obligated to do it for the rest now?? They honored the warranty that they sold you, plus some.....the dealer however wasn't as nice it sounds. Every part is defective at some time, yours failed way too early and unfortunately it didn't fail during the full warranty. What would a major car mfg do if you didn't drive your car much but the time warranty expired and you had a failure to a major drive component.... they would leave you with the bill.... guaranteed.... now maybe the dealer would help out some but not the Mfg...

On a side note: we have never seen this failure out of the many CK20's sold and the many hours we have on customers units. Maybe we will sooner or later..... I keep the coupler on hand just in case I have to split a tractor we replace it to be safe.....

I truly hope you regain your faith in Kioti and your love for the tractor.... And I hope no one takes offense to my post or takes it rudely as that is the last thing I want....

CT_Tree_Guy · Mar 8, 2006

Every part is defective at some time 

Jon -

I largely agree with the basic idea of your post, that many parts eventually fail on any machine, and that all failures cannot be fixed out of warranty by the manufacturer at no cost to the customer.

I just want to draw a distinction between a part that fails through "normal" wear and tear ("old age"?) and one that fails because of a defect in design or workmanship.

If these couplers were failing at 5,000 hours, that's one thing. But from the sound of things (low hours, several reported cases), it seems likely that these failures are the result of a defect in design or workmanship.

It would have been very interesting to have seen some test results on the metallurgical properties of the old and new couplers, particularly hardness, together with some engineering analysis concerning the ability of the part to handle the stresses it is subjected to. Perhaps it was too hard, perhaps it was too soft, perhaps it just wasn't beefy enough. Either way, it seems to me that it didn't fail due to normal wear and tear.

Just as Avis tries harder because they aren't Number One, I think Kioti has missed a golden (and very visible) opportunity to go the extra mile to take care of this failure. A recall is likely not called for at this point, but stepping up to the plate and accepting responsibility for what truly seems to be a defect would have bought a lot of goodwill and confidence for the brand.

And I'm not saying any of this to "bash" Kiotis. I really like them a lot, from their good looks to their beefy construction. They just seem to be real workhorses, and I'd hate to see the brand suffer unnecessarily as it goes through some of the "growing pains" that so many manufacturers have experienced through the years. I think everyone on the planet realizes that nothing is perfect and mistakes are made; the "proof" is in how well we take responsibility for our imperfections.

John

depratt_equip · Mar 8, 2006

I guess the real thing that frustrates me is the repair bill he got from the dealer. If Kioti covered him $390 for "loss of use" then that should have been more than enough to cover the repair..... And this loss of use was probably meant to “cover” him (mathey) for the labor side of things but it sounds as if the dealer jacked up the labor time charged to the customer…. I don’t know all the details so I may be speaking out of turn and apologize if I am, but this is just how it comes off to me.

No doubt if he left my shop and Kioti covered him $390 for loss of use on this repair he would be walking away with no out of pocket expense……

lcisled · Mar 8, 2006

This case is really two issues:
1) The coupler could be a bad part on higher hour CK20HST tractors-jury is still out-even for KJ as the part could break at any time. Neither I or Mathey had any indication that it was wearing out. As I have said, I am now glad that I had mine go out under warranty. I do not have to think about it every time I use the tractor.
2) Dealer interaction with the customer will have a huge impact on the Kioti brand. James Little saved the day for my Kioti, if it were up to my local dealer, I would own another brand today. I believe Jon or Wallace would have handled it well. I believe Mathey's dealer could be part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Mathey, based on what I know, if I were you, I would move on like it never happened. I believe your problem with the coupler is solved, and the faster you put the tractor back in use, the faster your confidence will be restored.

Donnyj · Mar 8, 2006

No doubt if he left my shop and Kioti covered him $390 for loss of use on this repair he would be walking away with no out of pocket expense……

That is what an honest dealer would have done.

I believe Kioti did step up and offer some assistance. I do agree if there is an issue with this part that Kioti should extend the warranty on this particular part and labor. Mathey, I believe alot of your problems also stem from the dealer who worked on it. Sounds like to me they overcharged. Like Jon said, What diag? Remove plug and inspect. Did the dealer offer a parts and labor warranty on the repair? I'm sure they did. I would work it now and see if a failure happens again. Just my opinion. Not trying to make enemies, just stating my opinion.

IH3444 · Mar 9, 2006

HERE, HERE, DITTO. Golden oppertunity for Kioti to step up to the plate and go to bat for one of their tractor owners. 4 year warranty now. Why??? A coupler failure???? That part should be bullet proof, never fail, and the tractor after 10,000 hours should have the same coupler. Maybe coupler engineering, and manufacture is a challange for Kioti. Warranty extended to 4 years? Sales dipping?? I haven't seen any other manufacture follow this lead? I don't even want to hear the blatter about "every part fails", what a cop out! Never read about any other manufacture's coulper between the engine and the hydro unit failing. The Kioti factory should cut a check to Mathey for the repairs, and allow him some time to think over whether to continue will his CK20. Is this company running so close to the edge on corporate profits that a $1000 check is going to make or break them. I must admit that dealer support was also a great part of my decision process when I made my decision on purchasing a new tractor. I was so very close to buying a gear drive DK45S, that I almost did it. I'm also convinced that I would have never had a problem with it also. The difference in the Kioti dealer, and Antietam was part of my decision making process. Well worth the extra $$$ I spent, not to mention the the 18LA loader, fender mounted joy stick, that was the clincher for me. Mathey should also be commended for just stating the facts of the problem with his CK20, and not flaming Kioti, or the dealers. That shows a man with an outstanding character, and well disciplined mind. Hats off to you Mathey!!!!!

Oleozz · Mar 9, 2006

There is a common theme between Mathey and Icisled beside having the same coupler problem and that is they both bought from dealers that are not repairing the tractors. Icisled said his was a big hassle and it sounds like Mathey's repair dealer didn't go out of his way to rush the work or give him any breaks in cost. Is this a problem among all tractor dealers, they only want to service and repair what they sell? I was under the assumption that all Kioti dealers had to honor the warranty if the tractor was bought there or not???

depratt_equip · Mar 9, 2006

( Warranty extended to 4 years? Sales dipping?? I haven't seen any other manufacture follow this lead? )

TYM was the first Mfg to go to a 5 year warranty.... Seems Kioti is following their lead...

( Is this company running so close to the edge on corporate profits that a $1000 check is going to make or break them. )

Like I said above Kioti giving him $390 in loss of use is enough to cover the labor on this bill, or should have been... Seems like Kioti did cover him by allowing $390 and calling it loss of use, but the dealer wanted some more out of him. Its not right at all in my mind for the dealer to do this. Should Kioti talk to the dealer... yes...

Like i said before though, I didn't work on the tractor nor know exactly what they did or who even the dealer is.... so I may be speaking completley out of turn....

Donnyj · Mar 9, 2006

What is the labor rate for repairs. 40? 50? an hour. I still think the dealer stuck it to Mathey more than Kioti did. How long of a job? 8 to 12 hours? I would like to know where the 1,000 out of pocket expenses came from. Maybe Mathey was paying for someone to "learn" how to repair a tractor. Kioti should extend the warranty on that repair. IH, everything does break. Nothing is bullet proof. The part should not have failed, I agree. The part was covered, the labor should have been dang near covered with 390 bucks. I believe the dealer has caused alot of this problem. Oleozz, your right every Kioti dealer should honor the warranty, but your selling dealer should go out of there way just a little bit more. After all, you spent your money with them. Don't you feel like you should be treated just a step higher because you purchased from them? Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

depratt_equip · Mar 9, 2006

Donnyj

Flat rate is 3.6 hours.... here in kansas we charge $55/hour.... may be higher up there.

We replaced an HST a few years back and it was the easiest job we had ever done.. The CK20 was a breeze to split.

What happend to the HST is the customer didn't chain the tractor down to the trailer and took off from a stop light leaving the tractor rolling backwards down the road. The tractor was in gear so it put the pump into reverse rotation. Anything hydrostat does not like to be pulled, pushed or rolled while in gear....

mathey · Mar 9, 2006

labor rate was $60/hour...

bill states:

-----------------------------------------

8 hours diagnose noise in hydro, tractor won't move. troubleshoot and teardown to failure, found coupler between main clutch shaft stripped and tore splines off main clutch shaft and hydrostatic unit input shaft, triple split of tractor to remove hydro unit and clutch main shaft.

11 hours replace hydro unit, replace main clutch shaft and reassemble with necessary orings, packings, seals & circlips. replace hydrostatic and hydraulic filters (not covered under warranty, maintenance items) refill hydraulic oil & test -ok

2.5 hours diagnose engine oil leak troubleshoot found tach drive leaking oil soaked coolant hoses too. replace tach drive & gasket and seal in end of tach drive cable replace lower radiator hose and bypass hose refill coolant wash down check oil level.

-5 hours Kioti authorized special case allowance credit due to extended time required to ship parts for this repair

-1.5 hours Kioti authorized special case allowance credit due to extended time required to ship parts for this repair

-----------------------------------------------------

Did I pay for them to learn? Most likely yes, but again, without Kioti backing me up to one of their dealers, what was my case? I have no idea what a typical repair timeframe is.

Did I pay a premium for not having bought there originally? I sincerely hope not (other than perhaps being on the back burner time-wise), but then again, who really knows? It's certainly nothing that can be proven or disproven.

Ironically, i'm not upset with the delay in getting it repaired since winter is a typical downtime for us and I did have use of a tractor during that time period. My son was happy since he got to park in the garage for the winter too...

Donnyj · Mar 9, 2006

Bill says 8 hour teardown and inspect. Then why is there 11 hours to replace the unit? They already have it torn down. Right there you were ripped off. I'm in the flate rate repair business. That is called double dipping. No sense in charging another 11 hours to replace something that is already torn down. Agree? Why does it take 2.5 hours to diag an oil leak? Another instance of overcharging. I know I work on autos instead of tractors, but let me give you an example. Ford pays .7 to diag oil leak under warranty. Out of warranty, maybe an hour. I believe a vehicle is much harder to diag an oil leak than a tractor. Agree? I still stand by my first observation. You payed for someone's lack of knowledge. That is not fair and honest business practice. Your dealer caused alot of this problem. Is there a labor guide for out of warranty repairs? Your talking almost 20 hours labor to repair your tractor? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif You may have issues with Kioti, and I understand that, but you have bigger issues with that dealer.

depratt_equip · Mar 9, 2006

WOW /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Way over flat rate......

gamble77 · Mar 9, 2006

Wow...I cannot even begin to believe that bill. Here is what I would do...

Contact you Kioti dealer and ask for their Kioti sales rep phone number and talk directly to him. Show him the bill and see what happens.