Chainsaw sharpening, hand or grind?!

[Coyote machine]

Great post Coyote & indicative of your many years of experience - nothing beats a hand filed chain !!:thumbsup:

Excellent post Coyote!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Sorry that you don't have facts and have to resort to veiled threats instead. A pro can hand sharpen to a decent edge most of the time. The average Joe with some practice can have a fresh accurate sharp and straight cutting chain . With a minimal investment of time and capital.
As for concerns about overheated cutters loosing their edge. It comes done to proper setup. The wheel only has to make a light touch to freshen the edge. Loss of temper if there was any is not a concern.

You are sorry for sure. There are no veiled threats, maybe some innuendo, and NOTHING you go on about has anything to do with anything I have said. I told the method I use; hand sharpening without a guide bar to hold the file. I told what I use to get saw chain to cut effectively and what works for me. You don't have to like it and I'm not here to justify my method over anyone else's. You want to compare out of the box factory chain to chain that needs sharpening by some method; unrealistic and a waste of time. I never said I know it all, but I can say that I'm always willing to learn, rather than being stuck in a one way or nothing lack of mentality. Experience, study, research and hands on use of a file since I began working in the tree business is where I've gained my knowledge. You? Where's your opinion come from, based on what facts?! You're just another one of the guys on TBN who hides by not saying where you're from, what you own, or any relevant FACTS about yourself, let alone what you espouse as the only way to get a sharp chain.
I never mentioned anything about burning up teeth on grinders, and you somehow, amazingly, seem to think you are the one who can determine what is humanly possible in the realm of hand/tool workmanship. Your arrogance is astounding, and shows a complete lack of understanding of what mankind has done and continues to accomplish with hand eye coordination. You seem to want to say what pros, like myself, are capable of with a hand file, what average Joe, you? can do, with what, file, grinder, bazooka?
Doesn't your, "a pro can..." statement contradict your earlier, still ambiguous and poorly worded statement about what is 'humanly possible'? Of course it does!
BTW, I never said when I started this thread that I haven't used or tried file holders, depth gauges, etc. In fact I recommended and linked to places to buy them for those who want to file with a guide.
If your skillset doesn't include being able or willing to try hand filing no one will think less of you, so grind away, or maybe try the Timberline guide, that looks like something I might want to try, just to see what it can do....FACT!

 

[DeereMann]

+1

"Oh yeah, last but not least. When handfiling I ALWAYS wear White Ox heavy cotton gloves. Always "

Another trick to prolonging chain/edge life - I only sharpen off-saw on an old worn out bar I use only as a chain sharpening fixture. Then I rinse the sharpened chain in gas to get the filings & dirt off, then rinse in chain oil - all before putting back on the saw bar.

This keeps the sharp filings from getting into the chain pins & wearing/dulling the chain further.

OK, maybe a little OCD:confused2:, but doesn't add much time to the job. I always carry two sharp chains so I don't run out while in the field.

 

[Coyote machine]

I do same as you, CoyoteMachine - been cuttin' for 40+ years, some semi-professionally as well.

The chain teeth hold an edge longer by hand-filling. Electric filing tempers the hardened steel used for the teeth from the heat, softening the hardened steel. Then the teeth need more frequent sharpening in ever-decreasing service intervals.

After you've done enough of these, you don't need a file holder. I use a worn out bar guide for the chain holder. Clamp the bar guide in the workbench vise.

DeereMann,

Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly are you clamping in your vise to hold the chain? Are you referring to the saw's left and right pieces of the saw body that clamp the bar and tighten the chain?
Whatever you are using it sounds like a good method to use.

Thanks, CM

I agree that some Stihl chain is hard as diamonds, and very difficult to hand file for sure. I use all Stihl chain, but just for stock cutting, not filed to rip or anything else, 'special'.
One of the reasons I've almost always hand filed is that was how I was 'taught', and I don't have time to take the chain off, take it to a Stihl shop or independent 'grinder guy', wait for it to be done, go back and pick it up and then if it's not ground down beyond recognition, install it and repeat, PLUS have to pay for the grind!:confused2: Not saying its the ONLY way to do it, but I'm just a cheapskate too.:confused3:
I can't control who sharpens the chain at most shops, and sometimes the results are good and sometimes not. I like knowing if I screw up and the saw cuts in circles it's on me and only costs my time.:2cents:

 

[Scott85]

I tried hand filing never could get the hang of it took it to a guy at a tractor shop and he always did a great job, carry 4 chains and always have at least 2 sharp all the time. Wish I could do it by hand but I ruined to many chains by trying. Maybe it's time to upgrade and get a grinder and save some money.

 

[Furu]

................... starting at the master link of the chain. One determines where the master link is by finding two teeth in sequence that are on the same side of the bar.
.........................
CM out

Great post CM. I like to "touch up" my chains ever tank (occasionally every other tank.) Learned that trick from a full time logger 40 years ago. Keeps them very sharp and minimizes the amount that has to be removed.

Question from your post that I excerpted above.
I may not understand your sentence but none of my chains have two teeth on same side in sequence. I have even number teeth counts on all loops sizes thus they alternate the whole loop. How do you get "two teeth in sequence on the same side" unless you are running an odd tooth/teeth count loop?
I may not have understood your sentence.

 

[DeereMann]

CM -

Don't laugh -

I only clamp the chainsaw bar itself. I have a collection of worn out bars that fit the length & pitch of the chains I use. I clamp the appropriate bar in the vise, then drape the chain around the bar in the groove.

I use Stihl round files, stabilize the rear face of the cutter with my left thumb, then sharpen with my right hand. I sharpen in the same direction that wood passes thru the cutter, as you would with a knife. I have seen some folk sharpen "backwards", upward. I can feel the proper vertical angle, and see the horizontal angle from the scribe mark Stihl puts on top of each cutter.

Pefect? No way - but boy they sure have an edge when I get back in the field & they stay sharp longer than the local grind shop's sharpening. It is rather laborious, so seems I always have a chain or two I'm sharpening. I guess that's what old guys do - I have 2 sons that help cut.

Here is a typical oak I cut. This one was 32.5" diameter............



P.S. - for Furu: if you look at your chain, there will be only two cutters whose teeth face the same way in a row on your chain - that is the master link location. If you start there you know when you get to the end of the chain. Or if you get senile like me, you take a piece of painter's tape & wrap around your start point on the chain. :confused2:

 

[Furu]

P.S. - for Furu: if you look at your chain, there will be only two cutters whose teeth face the same way in a row on your chain - that is the master link location. If you start there you know when you get to the end of the chain. Or if you get senile like me, you take a piece of painter's tape & wrap around your start point on the chain. :confused2:

I use a marker (sharpie/lumber crayon whatever) to mark the cutter I start at.
I have never seen on my loops two cutters facing the same direction. That was why I asked. With even numbered cutters one left one right they should alternate the whole loop all the way around. Only if there are odd numbers of cutters should there be two on same side in sequence. Maybe I am misunderstanding/misinterpreting something in what is being said.
Of course I am nowhere near a loop to go look at right now.

 

[buickanddeere]

You are sorry for sure. There are no veiled threats, maybe some innuendo, and NOTHING you go on about has anything to do with anything I have said. I told the method I use; hand sharpening without a guide bar to hold the file. I told what I use to get saw chain to cut effectively and what works for me. You don't have to like it and I'm not here to justify my method over anyone else's. You want to compare out of the box factory chain to chain that needs sharpening by some method; unrealistic and a waste of time. I never said I know it all, but I can say that I'm always willing to learn, rather than being stuck in a one way or nothing lack of mentality. Experience, study, research and hands on use of a file since I began working in the tree business is where I've gained my knowledge. You? Where's your opinion come from, based on what facts?! You're just another one of the guys on TBN who hides by not saying where you're from, what you own, or any relevant FACTS about yourself, let alone what you espouse as the only way to get a sharp chain.
I never mentioned anything about burning up teeth on grinders, and you somehow, amazingly, seem to think you are the one who can determine what is humanly possible in the realm of hand/tool workmanship. Your arrogance is astounding, and shows a complete lack of understanding of what mankind has done and continues to accomplish with hand eye coordination. You seem to want to say what pros, like myself, are capable of with a hand file, what average Joe, you? can do, with what, file, grinder, bazooka?
Doesn't your, "a pro can..." statement contradict your earlier, still ambiguous and poorly worded statement about what is 'humanly possible'? Of course it does!
BTW, I never said when I started this thread that I haven't used or tried file holders, depth gauges, etc. In fact I recommended and linked to places to buy them for those who want to file with a guide.
If your skillset doesn't include being able or willing to try hand filing no one will think less of you, so grind away, or maybe try the Timberline guide, that looks like something I might want to try, just to see what it can do....FACT!

I suppose four decades of cutting enough hardwood to keep the house warm in Ontario doesn't count. Neither does limbing trees that extend out into the fields. Or cutting thorn trees out of the bush to make room for better trees.

 

[Coyote machine]

Great post CM. I like to "touch up" my chains ever tank (occasionally every other tank.) Learned that trick from a full time logger 40 years ago. Keeps them very sharp and minimizes the amount that has to be removed.

Question from your post that I excerpted above.
I may not understand your sentence but none of my chains have two teeth on same side in sequence. I have even number teeth counts on all loops sizes thus they alternate the whole loop. How do you get "two teeth in sequence on the same side" unless you are running an odd tooth/teeth count loop?
I may not have understood your sentence.

All of my chain loops have two teeth facing the same way, your chains/bar sizes may possibly allow for an even number of cutters per chain, I can't say whether that occurs on some saw bars/chains or not. The other thing many people do is find the most damaged tooth on either side, or the one most ground/filed down and either use that as a starting point or skip that tooth and do all the others evenly and when the other teeth are at the same measurements then put the errant tooth back into the mix.

Yes, every or every second tank touch up allows the operator to rest enough to maintain focus, a key component to being safe in the field, and it allows the saw to cool too, which can't hurt the whole process of whatever one is trying to accomplish.

 

[ovrszd]

I sharpen in the same direction that wood passes thru the cutter, as you would with a knife. I have seen some folk sharpen "backwards", upward. I can feel the proper vertical angle, and see the horizontal angle from the scribe mark Stihl puts on top of each cutter.

Please clarify this for me. When I'm sharpening I am looking at the discharge side of the tooth I'm working on. I push the file away from me or "out" the face of the tooth, opposite direction of the wood chips that are cut. Am I doing that backwards???

I understand you to say when you are sharpening you are looking at the intake side of the tooth that you are working on. You can't see the filed edge?? Then you push the file past the tooth just like the wood chip would flow??

I've never done it that way.

CM, how do you do this??

Here's a picture (pictures worth a thousand words). I push away from me .

 

[DeereMann]

If I remember (hah!) I'll try to snap a photo at my filing station. The trouble here is we think of "cutting" like with a knife. That's fine, as most of our chainsaw cutting is with the bottom of the bar guide - just like using the knife with the cutting edge on the bottom of the blade.

But - with the chainsaw chain - I sharpen on the TOP of the bar guide in the vice. This means you sharpen the opposite way because the chain on top of the bar is traveling AWAY from you, not toward you as on the bottom of the guide.

The easiest thing to do is visualize cutting upward into a tree branch - which way is the wood traveling relative to the chain? TOWARD the chain, right? Then this is also the dirction needed to sharpen with the file also - when sharpening on TOP of the bar.

With any knife - you sharpen from the sharp edge toward the blade - not from the blade toward the sharp edge.

Does this help?

 

[ovrszd]

If I remember (hah!) I'll try to snap a photo at my filing station. The trouble here is we think of "cutting" like with a knife. That's fine, as most of our chainsaw cutting is with the bottom of the bar guide - just like using the knife with the cutting edge on the bottom of the blade.

But - with the chainsaw chain - I sharpen on the TOP of the bar guide in the vice. This means you sharpen the opposite way because the chain on top of the bar is traveling AWAY from you, not toward you as on the bottom of the guide.

The easiest thing to do is visualize cutting upward into a tree branch - which way is the wood traveling relative to the chain? TOWARD the chain, right? Then this is also the dirction needed to sharpen with the file also - when sharpening on TOP of the bar.

With any knife - you sharpen from the sharp edge toward the blade - not from the blade toward the sharp edge.

Does this help?

So I'm doing it backwards?? I'll hafta try it the other way. I've never seen that done. But if it improves sharpness, I'm all about it

 

[newbury]

Please clarify this for me. When I'm sharpening I am looking at the discharge side of the tooth I'm working on. I push the file away from me or "out" the face of the tooth, opposite direction of the wood chips that are cut. Am I doing that backwards???

I understand you to say when you are sharpening you are looking at the intake side of the tooth that you are working on. You can't see the filed edge?? Then you push the file past the tooth just like the wood chip would flow??

I've never done it that way.

CM, how do you do this??

Here's a picture (pictures worth a thousand words). I push away from me .

If I remember (hah!) I'll try to snap a photo at my filing station. The trouble here is we think of "cutting" like with a knife. That's fine, as most of our chainsaw cutting is with the bottom of the bar guide - just like using the knife with the cutting edge on the bottom of the blade.

But - with the chainsaw chain - I sharpen on the TOP of the bar guide in the vice. This means you sharpen the opposite way because the chain on top of the bar is traveling AWAY from you, not toward you as on the bottom of the guide.

The easiest thing to do is visualize cutting upward into a tree branch - which way is the wood traveling relative to the chain? TOWARD the chain, right? Then this is also the dirction needed to sharpen with the file also - when sharpening on TOP of the bar.

With any knife - you sharpen from the sharp edge toward the blade - not from the blade toward the sharp edge.

Does this help?

So in the picture you should be pulling the file.

 

[ovrszd]

So in the picture you should be pulling the file.

That's what I'm understanding him to say.

 

[DeereMann]

Yes - I recall 25 years ago when I started hand-filing learning from an old guy - a professional forester. "Pushing" the file against the direction the wood comes through the saw barely sharpens the edges.

Take a kitchen knife out - now take a file & file the edge from the handle down the edge. How sharp does it get? Not very, right? If you use a hand gauge as in the photo above, you don't have much choice because you need to "push" to control it.

I will try to take a photo tonight. Second, if you leave chain on bar, all the filings can get into the bar groove = faster wear. I use an off-saw worn out bar clamped in a vice as a sharpening fixture.

 

[Coyote machine]

Please clarify this for me. When I'm sharpening I am looking at the discharge side of the tooth I'm working on. I push the file away from me or "out" the face of the tooth, opposite direction of the wood chips that are cut. Am I doing that backwards???

I understand you to say when you are sharpening you are looking at the intake side of the tooth that you are working on. You can't see the filed edge?? Then you push the file past the tooth just like the wood chip would flow??

I've never done it that way.

CM, how do you do this??

Here's a picture (pictures worth a thousand words). I push away from me .

As you are standing your saw body is to your left, in your pic, and the tooth your holding your file guide on, push away from your body, through the tooth, from the center of the bar to the outside edge of the tooth/POINTY end, which hangs furthest from the center. Only forward away from the square back of each tooth toward the tip of the tooth, parallel to the floor, and with the same pressure on the groove of each tooth and at the angle cut into the tooth by the manufacturer, if present.

In other words, think of how each tooth grabs the wood. If you stand over the bar and look down on the chain, if each tooth alternated from left to right side of the bar and didn't overhang no cutting would be accomplished. The cut starts at the pointed edge overhanging the bar and the wood is drawn from that edge to the center of the bar and then cleans itself of the chips as the chain draws them around the bar to the bottom of the chain/saw body entry where things fly out. The chain runs forward pushing the teeth into the wood. That is why a good sharp chain, with a straight, no pinched bar, with clean oil passages and groove in the bar, will pull the saw into the wood and you toward the log, in a crosscut, for example. There is less to no effort for the cut to happen the torque and chain teeth do the cutting, NOT the operator pushing on a dull, poorly maintained saw. When a dull chain or any of the other items just mentioned are not fully functional the saw bar/chain can bind. It can also bind or pinch when sharp, but there is less chance/frequency to this happening. Pinching occurs due to not knowing whether to top or undercut a log, tree, branch, etc., and gravity moves the wood and the sawcut closes on the chain/bar and renders it immovable without releasing the pressure by moving the wood in the opposite direction. This happens to less experienced sawyers regularly. The thing to do is not fight the pinch by trying to wrestle the saw out of the pinch. It can often take having another saw handy to free the stuck saw. Fighting the pinch can damage/pinch the bar and in extremes bend it beyond fixable. In situations where kickback occurs the saw chain and bar tip are often trying or are pushing the saw up and away from the log/tree, (if the bar tip gets under the log), without the saw operator controlling that situation the saw bar/chain can fly up at tremendous speed and hit the sawyer or other objects/people in the nearby vicinity. Many sawyers are injured/killed because of uncontrolled kickback. This is why all saws come standard with chain brakes, low kickback chain, etc.
Proper stance, and clear escape paths when felling trees is essential to staying alive.
Hope I've answered your question in an understandable way?

 

[Coyote machine]

Ovrszd, take a look at this entire video from Stihl, once they get into the actual filing it's got lots of useful tips and techniques....

How to Sharpen Your STIHL Chainsaw Chain - YouTube

NOTE: at 6min/15 seconds into the video it shows and states ALWAYS file from the inside OUT, and again at 6min/38seconds.
Inside out means from the inside, (center of the bar), to the outside of the tooth's extended edge beyond the confines of the actual chain and bar.

Filing the opposite way is INcorrect, period.

Oh, I've forgotten to mention the importance of adjusting the depth gauges as well as the teeth. This video also shows exactly how to do this correctly. If not done, or done incorrectly everything else being done right won't matter much because the chain still won't cut properly....

CM

 

[murphy1244]

Seems they sharpen from back to front like Ovrszd

 

[mikehaugen]

When I started filing, I would file "into" the teeth, meaning from the outer edge to the center. Watching a few online videos, including the Stihl one, made me second guess myself, as they show to file from the center to the outside. All other things that I have sharpened in my life contradict this, (knives, mower blades, drill bits, etc...) so I really don't know which is best. This is an interesting conversation.

 

[LD1]

I file. But use a granberg jig. For me, a filed chain cuts faster than a factor stihl edge. Proved that before.

As to the direction to file, and being bass-ackwards from everything else, has to do with the design of the teeth.

They arent just a hard piece of steel. They are chrome plated. Chrome hard. by filing inside to out (or back to front) you are actually removing the softer material of the tooth, and allowing the chrome to chip/break off.

By filing the other way, it dulls the file quicker, and results in a slightly less sharp edge. Not really noticeable in the cut, but certainly noticeable in how fast you go through files.