Can I use railroad ties for piers on my house

[stevenf]

KennyV I went and saw the RR Ties this morning they are not new as I was told but they do look pretty good. I'm still crawfishing on this and the sonotube is sounding better. I just haven't worked with this volume of concrete and I don't want to spend months getting them up as my time table to have the house finished is one year after the tractor arrives. I have a real job so my construction time will be limited to nights, weekends and holidays HO HO HO. I also asked the lumber company about treated 6 x 6's and 8 x 8 they can still do the .60 treatment on them but the price would be about triple the RR ties although after reading all the threads about creosote eating chain saw and changing the blades and bars after 10 or so cuts I might be better off to use the treated if I go with wood piers. I plan on researching the sonotubes some more today and decide although the Tractor is still two weeks out.

 

[johnday]

stevenf; Polebarn and deck builder here. One problem people have with treated lumber is the level of chemical retention the lumber has. .60 is the level you want for ground contact, or even more if you can find it. Not all treated CCA lumber is equal. Most of the fence posts I've seen are rarely more than .40 retention, only good for above ground use. I've seen .20 retention for landscape timbers at the big box stores. No wonder those don't last. I've never had a callback for rotten wood posts. With the CCA maybe I will 100 years from now, but I don't think they'll find me /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

When cutting pt lumber, put the uncut end in the hole first. Footings? concrete is the best. Bore your hole at least 12" diameter, pour an 80# bag of ready mix in, then put your pole in and backfill. I don't know what your frost line is , or even if you have one. If you do, you want to be at least 6" deeper than the frostline to prevent heaving. I've built polebarns and decks like this for years in sand to clay. Haven't had any problems. This is regional advice, down your way maybe it's done differently, do you know any builders down there? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jinman]

Steven, I have a friend who has a post driver that can drive crossties into the ground. I'm not necessarily recommending crossties, but if you use ties, poles, or steel pipe, a post driver could make your job a lot easier. Maybe you can find someone in your area who would do the job for a decent price.

...just thinking out loud. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Henro]

StevenF,

How long you going to live in that house?

I can tell you one thing, I built my own place and it has been an on going project for nearly 25 years now...

And I look at some things, and think maybe I should have done that differently back when I started...but I didn't so I live with it.

Those posts will be the foundation for all your work. If you make the wrong choice, you WILL regret it later, IF you intend to live in that house for the long term like I and the wife do.

So my advice would be to take the time to choose the best foundation for your future work. You will put a lot of time and effort in the house...would be a shame if in 15 years you end up scratching your head and asking yourself "What was I thinking...???"

Money spent now to do it as well as you can will be money you don't have to spend to do it over later (much harder to do it over when the house is on top of it, by the way...).

 

[btolle]

First, many, if not most, RR ties that you find in Texas are yellow pine.

The creosoting penetrates all the way through the wood.

If you look around at power line poles (telephone poles) you will find they have a 'birthmark' branded in them with a branding iron that tells the month(?) and year they were made. You will see that many of them are a lot older than 50 years.

Termites will not touch a creosote pole, in fact, that is a real plus. You will never get termites because they will not even climb a creosote pole.

Lastly, somebody said that water will rot them. Don't tell the folks on the gulf coast that. They have been using creosote posts for 100 years for pier pilings. I have seen some of the that were pulled out after many years because of some type of damage like a boat hitting them and the section below the waterline looks like the day it left the creosote plant. Again, look at power poles that have been in for 50 years or more, you won't find any rot or damage caused by the environment (only damage will be that caused by drunken drivers).

Untreated wood that is under water will last for many years. It is not the water that does the damage. Any damage will be in the part where it is subjected to wet/dry cycle right at the point it goes into the ground. As a former Licensed Texas Real Estate Inspector I saw a lot of treated poles that were used for foundations on the coast and a lot of them were damaged at the ground line.

Creosote posts will probably last 5 to 10 times as long as treated posts.

Finally, would the railroad run 300,000 pound railroad engines Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive 2479 - Facts over a piece of wood that was going to rot out in a few years?

For those who mentioned building on concrete pads: In Texas there are many areas where the ground is referred to as "black gumbo". It has a high plasticity factor (swells when wet, shrinks when dry) that causes a lot of foundation problems. A pier and beam house will hold up very well in that type of soil.

Cracked concrete slabs are a big problem on those areas. If you get a cracked slab you may pay thousands of dollars to have it repaired. With pier and beam you crawl under the house with a 2 ton bottle jack and some shims and level it up yourself.

Bill Tolle

 

[stevenf]

Ya'll are killing me! I think I should, I think I shouldn't! Ahh!
I did have a reason to smile today the H & H toothbar came in for my new Tractor. The clock is ticking within 2 weeks I should be ready to start drilling holes the problem is what to put in them. Our first house was pier and beam set on cedar post in San Antonio they were embeded 2' and were exposed about 18" it was 30 years old when we bought it. I spent the first 2 months under it leveling it only to find out that it was built over several springs and clay soil so one week you could open the doors and the next you couldn't budge them. Where we are getting ready to build it is on limestone shelf rock anywhere from a foot thick to hundreds of feet thick. I'm leaning towards .60 treated 6 x 6's if the utility poles don't come in soon and since ya'll are telling me that cutting 55 of the RR ties to get them level is a problem but we'll see concrete piers definitely have their advantages too. I just don't feel comfortable with the time involved. My wife and I married in 1980 and I've become pretty comfortable with her I'd sure hate to make her mad during construction as the doghouse is even less comfy than this 100 year old cabin. Everybody should smile now! 100 years ago who'd a thought you'd be settin here staring at a plastic box and getting answers to life's big questions especially on a DSL connection that operates at the speed of light. What a wife she had a perfectly good, paid for house and she traded it for this just because she loves me and likes to see me reach my goals once in a while. "BUT" when you tell her, honey you'll have a new house in a year by golly you better look busier than a one armed paper hanger.

 

[slydog]

Okay, I just have to add my two cents here because no one has mentioned it. I have been doing a lot of research on building my own log cabing etc, and from what I have gleaned from most sources is that creosote is highly toxic, a known carcinogen, and should never be used in construction of any structure intended for living. I'd do more research before including it in a home I was building, especially since as others have stated, the rest of the house will be sitting atop it. Personally, I'd go with the concrete piers.

Ken

 

[beenthere]

I'd be curious what resources you are reading as I don't think ( what you understand about creosote) if it were true, that there would be any use of it now at all, and there would be a big flap to get rid of it. I think there are plenty of precautions when treating the ties, as far as spillage goes at the treating plants, but I don't think we need to be afraid of it in the product. IMO.

If RR ties were good for long lasting piers, and because of their price, we'd see a lot more people using them. One may take the risk, but I think it is a risk. I also wouldn't use 'old' treated poles. They were replaced for a good reason. Not saying that a good number of years could come from their use, but if they fail, think of what replacing one under a house would entail. Not pretty.

Most wood preservative treatments do not penetrate much more than just the surface. Heartwood treats very poorly, although it is a bit more resistant to decay than the outer sapwood portion of a tree. That is why the core of wood posts, and RR ties decays before the shell.

I don't think RR ties would make a good foundation for a home. There are so many misleading statements in this thread, its hard to visualize what is right and what is just plain 'not really right'. But more research into a longer lasting foundation should be in order.

The RR ties are not in a comparable category to the treated wood foundations that one reads about. That is a system that has a number of variables worked out so the complete system works together and makes a good, long lasting product.

To the original poster, he should do the research and save the grief of replacing piers beneath the house.

This response is directed mostly to the thread, and not to slydog's comment. I think creosote isn't something that can be 'home applied' and suspect that is where the warning is coming from.

 

[hitekcountry]

Those posts will be the foundation for all your work. If you make the wrong choice, you WILL regret it later
So my advice would be to take the time to choose the best foundation for your future work.


First I have to say I strongly agree with Henro’s advice.

Second I’d like to add a new perspective to the discussion. Any time I make a decision on property I own, about remodeling or design of a structure, an important part of that decision is understanding what the affect will be on the overall value of the property. Now I understand you may be intending to stay there the rest of your life, and chances are that is the way it will be. But things happen, things can change, and you may need to sell or maybe you just need to take a loan out on the property for some reason. Now you need to deal with the bank. And if this is odd construction for that area you could have a situation were you or a buyer are denied a loan or you take a big hit on the appraisal. And this will have a huge impact on the value of your property.

Third, you imply using concrete footing is somehow more complex to build with than using wood pilings. It really isn’t.

Fred

 

[stevenf]

I'm convinced that RR Ties is not the answer. Can someone that has done the Sonotube and footings give me some idea of the steps and procedures for doing it the most cost and time effiecent way, I've ordered a Kubota M9000 with a hydraulic down pressure Beltec rock auger to drill the holes. Thanks to all, you are probably saving me from a lot of heartache down the road right now I can squirm under to fix rotten post but years from now when they need attention I'd probably be to old to do it and end up looking for some young buck to replace them for me and charge me out the !!!. The foundation is for a 30' wide by 60' long single story house with a middle wall in the house at 15' to support the roof beam on a 4 in 12 pitch roof. I plan on cutting rafters rather than using trusses again from a cost standpoint.

 

[johndeere2210]

A number of years ago, I worked for a farmer who came by a whole semi load of new RR ties. We immediately went to work building a corral system using the ties for posts. After several weeks of hard labor, the corral was finished and useable. After about five years there were several loose posts. Upon investigating, we discovered that the posts had significant moisture damage below the ground line. Even though we had used gravel in the bottom of the post holes for drainage, the ties had rotted about 6 inches below the ground. The reason ties last so long on the rail road is that they are laid horizontally in a bed of coarse gravel that raises them well above grade for drainage. I would not recommend using them for piers under a house where the conditions are most likely to be damp and dark. Just my two cents worth. Good luck.

 

[hitekcountry]

Stevenf

There are many different approaches to accomplish what you are trying to do, and someone will no doubt suggest other good ideas. But here is a technique that I’ve used a number of times because it is so simple.
First drill/dig the holes for the footings. Then position the beam in its final position above the holes. Brace it in place. The bracing will be placed so that you have room to work around the holes. The beam is now about 3 feet (based upon your statement for a 3 foot crawl space) above grade, perfectly level, centered above a row of empty holes. Now cut each post support to length from the bottom of the beam to about a foot above grade. Next attach the posts to the bottom of the beam centered above each hole. You now have the posts each hanging above an empty hole. Next cut your sonotube to length (about a foot long) from grade to the bottom of the post. Someone could hold the sonotube in place when you pour but it is a nicer job if you can fix it in place. Next pour cement and be sure to pack it in under the bottom of the post.
Simple

Fred

 

[stevenf]

Fred I'm probably not the sharpest crayon in the box but I'm not sure I understood your sonotube installation instructions. Let me wiz this by ya and see what you think or anyone else following Steve's Homebuilding 101 discussion. I figure I should drill about a 12" hole down 3 feet or so and then with a digging bar bell out the bottom for footings. Pour about a sack of mixed concrete in the hole with some supported rebar in the footings and some sticking out in the center a foot or so to tie the sonotube column to the footing. After footings have cured since I've got so many to do it will be a multiple day project just on the footings so no down time, I will put the sonotube on top of the footings braced up square and level and shoot them with a transom or lazer and put a hole or mark at level on all tubes then put rebar cages in each sonotube and pour to my level line and put a j bolt in the top for attachment of beams. Wallah! a month or so later /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif I'm ready to construct and attach beams as nights, weekends and holidays are my only time to work on the house. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[MarkLeininger]

I would encourage you to go get a structural engineer (or architect if they can do it in Texas) to design the foundation for you. I paid a guy $50/hour to do the structural design on my house and it ended up costing a couple hundred dollars.

If you decide to use sonotube you can pour the footing and column at the same time for something this small. I'll post again if you decide to do it that way.

 

[hitekcountry]

Stevenf

Notice that I was only presenting a process and not a design. You suggest a different process and that will work also. As I said there are a number of ways you can accomplish what you are trying to do.
I purposely left out suggestions as to the number and spacing of support posts, depth of hole, size of footings, rebar, brackets, hold downs, bracing etc. . I’m not qualified to comment on design issues for your area. Besides not everyone would want to build the way I do. I have a tendency to massively over build things


Fred

 

[SPIKER]

Ive been reading & following the post and replyed to the cutting of RR ties. anyhow I got/get mine free from a neibor who works for the RR company (42 yrs now I think he has been working for htme) anyhow it all dependson the area that they were working in and or at for the wood species that were used. also same goes for ha=ow far they were treated through. (ones Ove recieved are fully treated to the core, and cuting one is next to cutting petrafied wood! new shapr chain saw blade will make 3~4 cuts on the ave 8x8 tie. then it needs shapening and the core os even harder not only denser wood but the treatment seems to be harder like someone said pour oil into the cut while cutting helps. I used a mixture of oil and dish soap/water shaken to a foamy texture to cool and oil the chain later in my cutting stages still ATE 2 chains and a BAR on a 100 buck poulan I bought specifically to do the job, the saw still is working great with a new bar & chains. and yes it through a LOT of sparks while cutting on nothing more than the center core of the ties. I used a 90 wt gear lub squeeze botttle & tip for my cooling mix and kept a 5 gallon bucket of the mix and often dipped the running saw bar/chain into the bucket to help cool it... (oh don't rev it up when doing this and don't ask me why I say thin! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

when you cut the ends in an exposed situation like a fence post, cut them at an angle and OIL the ends. flat cut will pool water and let it penetrate into them. this is advice from the vetrain RR worker. utility poles are not treated nearly as well as RR ties, as they often only treat the lower end of the pole to a good retension level and the upper half is treated lightly and some times barely at all...

anyhow I would think the sono tubes and crete woud be #1 way but the ties should last 50+ yrs like you wanted under the house in a texas weather. make sure that eves are run well away form foundation and keep good ventelation under there so they stay dry... (also dry stops bugs best.)

MarkM

 

[Poncho]

I would be very cautious about taking railroad ties onto your property and particulalry to use for any structure. Here's an excerpt from a website concerning termites: "The Formosan subterranean termite has the potential to spread throughout the whole state. Young colonies living in potted plants, landscape timbers, or infested trees can easily be transported. A good example is given in Louisiana and Georgia where their spread was aided by homeowners who accidently brought termites to their homes by buying infested railroad ties at home and garden shops. Alates (winged reproductives) also can swarm from infested boats into new locations as the boats travel from place to place." These little boogers are referred to as super termites.

Here's the website: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/MG064

 

[8N_John]

Just saw your post. It probably won't make much difference now, but just wanted to let you know that I recently used RR ties and telephones poles for piers to build a 24'x16' outbuilding. I augered holes about 30" deep and filled them up about 1/2 way with quickcrete and the top half with soil. The poles and RR ties cut fine with my chainsaw. It was the right alternative for me since I'm on a limited budget. Plus, those used RR ties and telephone poles were a lot more dense and appeared sturdier than other treated lumber I have used in the past. I saved several hunderd dollars by going this route rather than using other building materials for my piers.

 

[RedRocker]

I know for a fact carpenter ants will eat RR ties, I have a retaining wall that is almost ruined from those little *@#&*@#!!