bx FEL bucket quick attach

[Just2quickz28]

Ok I left work a little earlier than usual to get some work in on this project. And I did happen to get some pictures (pardon the pictures the camera has isssues at dusk). I took some time and filed off a bit of the bushings on the FEL arms till I was able to get the quick attach on.

I still need to do a bit more filing to get the movements smooth. But I stopped here to address some of the other issues I need to resolve on this QA. first off the LA240 pins are a little longer than those that come on the BX22/23 loaders but the same diameter. So I will need to get 2 side pins that match yours RedDirt (what model is your loader?) Likewise the 2 quick pins that came with the QA are not long enough to go through the loader. Well they go through the loader but are not long enough to get a retaining pin in. So in short I need to get 4 pins, the center cylinder pins didnt require any modification.

Now the last part will require some cutting on the bucket. The flanges on the bucket have 2 places where they hit the QA and keep me from alligning the QA to put the 2 side pins in. This should just be a slight trim on the bucket.

In this pic if you look close you can see on this side where the bucket is hitting the QA frame. If I take out the center pin on the bucket the side pins can line up.

I did not get a chance to get a picture of the plow but that will still need some adjustment to fit the QA.

 

[SkunkWerX]

J2Q,

Great pics!

good luck with this QA.

 

[RedDirt]

So I will need to get 2 side pins that match yours RedDirt (what model is your loader?)

My Loader is a LA210-1.

That QA is a very nice looking unit. I'd sure like to know specifically where the failing point is. It sure seems that it could be beefed up there but I guess ATI has already tried and failed.

Anyone know how to up the relief pressure of the FEL that was mentioned earlier? Normal relief adjustments are usually via a screw w/lock nut but that post mentioned shims. ???

 

[Just2quickz28]

That QA is a very nice looking unit. I'd sure like to know specifically where the failing point is. It sure seems that it could be beefed up there but I guess ATI has already tried and failed.

It is a very nicely made unit plenty of ideas what I can do with this (it would have fit directly to your machine too). ATI told me that the failing point is where the center cylinder hooks because there is a tremendous ammount of force to curl the bucket from a fully dumped position. They said the unit would have "Stress Fractures" I think the downfall is that they designed it to work without modification to the existing bucket. Im sure a little modification to the bucket and unit would solve any issues. Here is the email from ATI, also the picture they sent back to illustrate their point.

I am sorry but the quick attach for the BX-series loaders has been discontinued. After repeated design changes of our quick attach to increase it's strength, some customers still experienced stress fractures. These fractures are due to the geometry of the single dump cylinder on these Kubota loaders. When the bucket is fully dumped, the two cylinder pins are nearly in-line with the pivot pins on the loader frame. When the pins are nearly in-line like this, a tremendous amount of effort, and therefore strain, is required to return the bucket from the dumped position. I have attached a photo to help illustrate my point. It is also interesting to note that Kubota has added a significant amount of bracing on the back of their bucket, as well. This area of the BX loader bucket is braced much more than Kubota loaders with higher lift capacities. This indicates that it is a high-stress area on a BX loader.

And all that stess is placed on that middle hook...... I guess I will worry about it when or if it happens.

I also would like to increase the pressure slightly to try and offset the weight of this QA and the grapple I have been looking at.

 

[SkunkWerX]

Your relief valve is what determines the pressure.
It is located to the left of your rear PTO housing (looking at rear of tractor).
Look for a rather large 6 sided nut head.

To perform this adjustment correctly, you need a Tee fitting and a pressure gauge. You have to read your current pressure at 3200 rpm by tapping into your system which involves removing the hydraulic pipe that runs from right to left just above your PTO housing.

The factory spec range for the relief valve is 1778psi to 1849psi.
(BX1850 and BX2350)

Some users have reported that they take their machines in for service, make an inquiry about the pressure, and the dealer-mechanic sometimes finds they are running a little on the low side, like low 1700's. They can easily rectify this.

The adjustment is made with shims. There are 3 sizes of shims:
.1 mm .2mm and .4mm
The way it is designed, it appears that each .1mm = 39psi change.

So if you add a .1 mm shim you increase your relief setting by 39psi.

The key to this adjustment is being able to read your pressure, before and after. Otherwise you are shooting in the dark and may risk over pressurizing, voiding the warranty, etc. USER BEWARE.


For sake of discussion, let's say you find you are running at 1725psi?
You could actually raise your relief setting by approx. 125psi and be at the high end of the factory limits. You can adjust in increments of 39psi, so, 39psi x 3 = 117psi.
This means you can use [3] .1mm shims, or a .1mm plus a .2mm shim to increase your relief pressure upward by 117psi.

Last point of caution. I am sure thie loader components can handle a few psi OVER factory specs. HOWEVER, keep in mind there are other forces at play.
Sure, you could bump up your relief setting to 2200psi and pick up much larger loads, but, look at the size of your machine? It is not meant to hoist 1,000 lbs. up with it's FEL. It doesn't have the wheelbase, width, weight, and other geometric attributes to make this a safe operation.

Bumping up to factory upper limits should not be a problem. Even a few psi over shouldn't be a major deal. I am just offering a little advice to anyone who reads this and figures they can just simply install some extra shims, without regard, in order to lift bigger loads. if you make this adjustment without a guage, you are going down a path to the Dark Side.

And one last thing Luke Skywalker, I am NOT your father.

 

[SkunkWerX]

RedDirt and J2Q,

Back to the topic of the ATI QA. Their Email and picture explain a lot.

So, let's take this as super-valuable information.

If we build any front attachments, whether using the QA or just the 3 stock pins, let's be certain we build the center bracket area very, very beefy to handle the strain ATI has referenced.

PS: my 2350 bucket doesn't have those 2 center bracket ribs that run all the way up the bucket to the top lip.

 

[RedDirt]

SkunkWerX,
Thanks a lot for the relief pressure information. I was in the understanding that the FEL its own relief setting at the FEL spool valve that was independent of system pressure and set at a lower psi.

Do you need Kubota specific shims to adjust the system pressure or can these be cut by an individual from sheet shim stock?

I totally agree with all your cautions regarding upping the hydraulic pressure. I have a beauty of a gauge that I bought really cheap (I thought) on ebay only to find out that a good new gauge is very reasonable anyway through Surplus Center. I think Northern has them too. This is a required tool for any hydraulic pressure tinkering.

Regarding the tabs at the center cylinder, my bx23 bucket looks exactly like the photo from ATI.

And ditto making that center attachment very strong on any future fabrications.

I'm in the mind now to build a backing plate for my forks that is directly interchangeable with the bucket and then build all my implements to fit the auxiliary plate. Sort of a pseudo QA. Standard change over from bucket to plate then pallet forks, brush forks, big leaf bucket and maybe a trailer hitch receiver and a 3PH connection all attach to the plate.

 

[SkunkWerX]

SkunkWerX,
Thanks a lot for the relief pressure information. I was in the understanding that the FEL its own relief setting at the FEL spool valve that was independent of system pressure and set at a lower psi.

I will re-check the shop manual to make sure I am telling you correctly.
But I believe what I posted is correct, based on what I read in the manual.
It is implement pressure.

Do you need Kubota specific shims to adjust the system pressure or can these be cut by an individual from sheet shim stock?

The shim is right behind the large nut. Nut--> shim --> spring.
It is a washer style shim.
They don't give diameter, but, once removed, should be easy to match it.
The frist place I would look would be McMaster-Carr, this is the type of thing they carrry. Also, a dealer may have a kit of these shims and can hand them to you.

I'm in the mind now to build a backing plate for my forks that is directly interchangeable with the bucket and then build all my implements to fit the auxiliary plate. Sort of a pseudo QA. Standard change over from bucket to plate then pallet forks, brush forks, big leaf bucket and maybe a trailer hitch receiver and a 3PH connection all attach to the plate.

RedDirt, I'm with you 1000% Same thought. make a set of pallet forks, with a hefty back plate and flanges/hooks/slots for mounting other attachments.
Good thinking!

 

[RedDirt]

RedDirt, I'm with you 1000% Same thought. make a set of pallet forks, with a hefty back plate and flanges/hooks/slots for mounting other attachments.
Good thinking!

Hey, what about making the attachment plate adaptable to the 3PH as well? The "front" implements could then be used in either direction.

I just did a quick initial check and the loader arms are are at about the same spacing as the 3PH arms. If the FEL plate was built taller than needed for the FEL (needs to be tall enough anyway for typical fork attachment) a top link tab could be added.

Just a thought at this point but maybe worth considering before committing to the FEL attachment plate design.

 

[Cap-n-Cray]

Matt,

What does the ATI QA weigh?

I would like to make one strong enough to work, but still light enough not to add too much weight to the loader. I have my Micro Max pallet forks on order.

Could the lower pins be replaced by some kind of hooks? When the bucket or attachment is connected to the ATI QA does it add some strength to the setup. I could see if there is nothing attached to the ATI QA the stress would be high in full dump (pins on the same plane).

Cary

 

[SkunkWerX]

Hey, what about making the attachment plate adaptable to the 3PH as well? The "front" implements could then be used in either direction.

I just did a quick initial check and the loader arms are are at about the same spacing as the 3PH arms. If the FEL plate was built taller than needed for the FEL (needs to be tall enough anyway for typical fork attachment) a top link tab could be added.

Just a thought at this point but maybe worth considering before committing to the FEL attachment plate design.

I would say make the 3PH adapter more like an additonal attachment.

So, once the pallet forks are built, the forks can be removed, then you are left with the backing plate to attach things. Attach a Grapple, attach a rake, attach a 3PH adapter, and so on.

At least that is what I was thinking.

 

[Just2quickz28]

Matt,

What does the ATI QA weigh?

I would like to make one strong enough to work, but still light enough not to add too much weight to the loader. I have my Micro Max pallet forks on order.

Could the lower pins be replaced by some kind of hooks? When the bucket or attachment is connected to the ATI QA does it add some strength to the setup. I could see if there is nothing attached to the ATI QA the stress would be high in full dump (pins on the same plane).

Cary

This weighs in at about 40lbs. the lower pins on this unit are slip fit style that you can put in by hand. I do not think the bucket helps eliminate the stress. ATI did not tell me where the unit was failing exactly so it is hard to tell.

I am also with you guys about making one strong plate for all the rest of the home made attachments. I am debating on using the QA through the course of the summer with the bucket to see how it holds up. because as of right now all I have is the snow plow which is the main reason for buying this QA.

The tractor is at the dealer for the fender repair, and its 50 hour service (I was a bit over 62 hrs couldnt let it go get repaired when the weatherman kept saying SNOW) but when it does get back I will finish my install and take some more pictures .

I did find some hitch pin style pins at the dealer that are a diameter match to the kubota side pins, they are lacking the groove in the center and will probably need to be redrilled for a keeper at the right lenght. this might help with making the swap faster with out a QA

 

[RedDirt]

I would say make the 3PH adapter more like an additonal attachment.

It shouldn't be much of a leap to add a top link connector to the plate and then add two 5/8" - 3/4" 3PH side link pin tabs just inboard of the FEL attachment tabs.

The attachment plate would now serve double duty to be attached front or back. Why don't you think this would be a good approach? The only obvious one (to me) is if you need custom attachments at front and rear at the same time.

Instead of a plate I'm thinking more along the lines of a tube steel frame. Horizontal members top and bottom and three vertical. Two verticals in line with the loader arms, between the horizontals and the third in the center that extends above the upper horizontal that would carry the bucket cylinder pin tabs (low) and the 3PH top link tab(high).

 

[SkunkWerX]

It shouldn't be much of a leap to add a top link connector to the plate and then add two 5/8" - 3/4" 3PH side link pin tabs just inboard of the FEL attachment tabs.

Why don't you think this would be a good approach?

I didn't mean to insinuate it wasn't a good approach, it is a fine approach.

I was thinking about being able to remove it, when not needed, or so that it's not in the way of other attachements. If there is a way to make it part of the structure, so that it doesn't interfere, and doesn't add a lot of additional weight, then it should be fine.

I was actually thinking of the 3PH attachment being more like the HF QuickHitch, an item that would be readily hooked or unhooked as needed.
i guess sorta like we have seen folks do by attaching it to the front of their bucket.

Currently, I can't think of any of my 3PH attachments I would need to use up front, I was thinking more of a way to carry the securely to another location.


I think the sky is the limit, as far as customizing thefront plate/hitch/assembly to suit ones needs.

Look at some of the existing QA Fork attachements, I had pictured something like that, not a plate, but liek you said maybe some steel tube from side to side, then a center support for curl cylinder.

 

[RedDirt]

I was thinking about being able to remove it, when not needed, or so that it's not in the way of other attachements. If there is a way to make it part of the structure, so that it doesn't interfere, and doesn't add a lot of additional weight, then it should be fine.

Currently, I can't think of any of my 3PH attachments I would need to use up front, I was thinking more of a way to carry the securely to another location.

I think the sky is the limit, as far as customizing thefront plate/hitch/assembly to suit ones needs.

Right, mine too would remove when not needed. FEL arms would either have standard bucket with OEM connection or attachment "plate" with an accessory implement (eg forks).

I was more thinking of being able to run the "front" accessory implements on the rear, like the forks. So the idea was to have the plate attach to the 3PH not 3PH implements attach to the plate. I thought the 3PH had more lift capacity than the FEL but now looking at my owner manual maybe that's not the case.

Yes, the sky's the limit. Tell five carpenters to build a saw horse and you'll get five different designs. I think we have the important design parameters about licked on this one. Been nice working it out with you.

Now time to build and see some pictures! Unfortunately I have several other projects ahead of this one so my photos may be a while in the making. I'm almost done with my back blade upgrade x3 and then it is off to a BH root ripper tooth and narrow trenching BH bucket. I need both in the Spring. Maybe front end work after that if Spring tractor work doesn't catch me first. I'm back to work now full time through the summer so shop projects are going to have to play second fiddle. Shucks!

 

[SkunkWerX]

Understood, in order to use the front implments on the rear 3PH. good idea!
I do think the rear 3PH has a greater lift capacity. But any of the front attachments, built sturdy enough, should hold up just fine.

I am in the same situation, with a couple of projects underway, this will be a spring project, at the soonest, but it's very good to work it out in advance and remove some of the guesswork.

If anyone builds or comes up with a working drawing be sure to post it!!

 

[Cap-n-Cray]

Mat,

I am planning to design a QA like your ATI. I have ordered pins and sleeves from a machine shop. I am thinking of using hooks for the loader arms and a movable hook for the center cylinder to connect the bucket and set of micro maxi forks. The hooks will clamp on the attachments using the same pin configuration currently on the bucket.

Can you supply me with approximate size and dimensions of the metal on your ATI? Is it 3/16's or 1/4's. Maybe some reverse engineering. It might give me a starting point. I usually over design stuff.

Cary

 

[Cap-n-Cray]

Here is the set of forks I want to use with the QA. I want to switch between the bucket and the forks easily. They weight about 130 LBS.

Cary

 

[SkunkWerX]

CapnCray,

That isa a nice set of forks for the BX. They certainly won
t subtract from the lifting capacity since they are lightweight.

Does anyone know, approximately, how much the BX Bucket weighs when removed? That may be the next homework assignment.

It would be a good benchmark, as you wouild want to try to make any ohtre attchements plus a QA similar, or less weight, to preserve lift capacity.

 

[RedDirt]

Does anyone know, approximately, how much the BX Bucket weighs when removed? That may be the next homework assignment.

My owner manual says the bx23 bucket weighs 132 pounds. Cap-n-Cray's forks are right in the ball park if his 130# includes the rack and too much weight is not added with the QA.

Cap-n-Cray,
I'm with SkunkWerX, those are nice forks. Can you share where you got them?