bx FEL bucket quick attach

[RedDirt]

QUOTE :
We are currently working on the premise that they take about 15 or 20 mins to drive out, but, what if that could be reduced to less than 5 mins? In my mind, then, you simply build your other attachments to fit the stock pin locations and VIOLA!!

I agree.

There is a recent post on the Customization forum, I think "FEL Attachment". Half way through the referenced article a guy built a quick attach for a three pin FEL. He did a similar system to a skid steer. A lot of work and it still looks too heavy for the limited BX FEL capacity.

I still haven't removed my bucket but it seems the major complaints from those that have reported doing it has been 1: messing with the pins (two sizes keeper bolts, driving pins in/out & re-greasing), and, 2: alignment of the arms & cylinder.

If pins were made slip fit and a holding jig was built to maintain the three hole pin registration perhaps a switch could be 5 minutes. Less than ten would be acceptable for me.

I envision a registration jig as a stable assembly of wood or metal with quick clamps to hold the arms and cylinder in their hole mating alignment. A piece of 3/4 ply with notches for the arms and a half moon hole for the cylinder rod would work. Maybe the notches and half hole employ HF quick clamps (bar type w/squeeze lever ), or similar. The jig is attached to the arms and cylinder before the "existing" implement is removed. The existing implement is removed. Then when the "new" implement cylinder pin is aligned the arm pin holes are very close to where they need to be for the pins.

A pin alignment tool would help. This would be a shaft of (loose) pin diameter stock with a tapered end.

Having a level staging area, maybe with implement racks, would facilitate easier alignment.

If only a few front implements are being interchanged an implement rack could be built simply with four 4x4 posts and 2x4's cross members that would stack the implements one above the other (like shelves). This way the tractor stays put, only backing and forward a foot or so and the arms are only raised and lowered to each implement (no curl). The 2x4 cross members that hold the implement would be set so each implement has the correct (standard) "tilt" for the hook-up at that elevation. You could even put a couple of short tire curbs staked into the ground that would align the tractor side to side.

 

[Just2quickz28]

I agree.

I still haven't removed my bucket but it seems the major complaints from those that have reported doing it has been 1: messing with the pins (two sizes keeper bolts, driving pins in/out & re-greasing), and, 2: alignment of the arms & cylinder.

All 3 are issues. messing with the pins is a pain because if you drop them in the dirt you must clean them before putting them back in, and dropping them is common when you are doing it by yourself because using a 3/8s socket extension and a rubber mallet you do not have the extra hand to grab the pin as it comes out. alignment of the arms is not too bad when dealing with the bucket, anything that weighs a bit more is hard. also because the cylinder is not support it falls down between the arms when removed which makes hooking it back up almost a 2 man job, one to run the joystick the other to hold and place the cylinder.

To make it easier on myself lately I have been putting the bucket and plow up on my heavy duty saw horses so that it would not be on the ground.

 

[Just2quickz28]

There is a recent post on the Customization forum, I think "FEL Attachment". Half way through the referenced article a guy built a quick attach for a three pin FEL. He did a similar system to a skid steer. A lot of work and it still looks too heavy for the limited BX FEL capacity.

I found the link you were referencing
Machine Builders Network

But that becomes a weight issue, I wonder how much that really weighs?

 

[SkunkWerX]

Redirt and Just2Quick,

Great ideas from you guys! thanks.

Here are a few thoughts to address the issues listed so far:

Issue: Needing a small socket set/wrench to remove the keeper nuts and bolts holding the pins.
Answer: I was considering making them smooth pins with hairpins to hold them.

Issue: Pins too tight.
Answer: First, it may be those who have been removing them didn't relieve the downward pressure on the FEL, just like a 3PH a little tap of the hydraulic lever can make a world of difference. Also, polishing the pins and the sleeves they ride in should certainly help.

Issue: Registering the 3 Pin locations.
Answer: Not sure about how critical this is, especially the center curl cylinder. I look at the curl cylinder liek the top link of a 3PH. there is side/side play, so, why not just grab the cylinder and move it into alignment like a toplink. Only build a registering assembly if needed, adding weight only if necessary.

Issue: Pin Alignment tool.
Answer: YES!! perfect! great idea. And, perhaps use a softer metal or PVC Pipe so it can be used as a drift when pushing the pins out?

I also like the idea of a rack mounted system for a couple of attachments.

I will try to drift out a pin today, give you my thoughts this evening.

 

[Just2quickz28]

A little clarification:

The pins are drive in style, even releving the pressure on the bucket did not help. But grinding them down and/or replacing them with the slipfit pin style that some of the other tractors have would help.

Aligning the pin locations with the center cylinder is almost a 2 man job because you cannot pull on the cylinder to make it extend to match the pin hole. it is not the side to side movement its the length alignment.

 

[SkunkWerX]

A little clarification:

The pins are drive in style, even releving the pressure on the bucket did not help. But grinding them down and/or replacing them with the slipfit pin style that some of the other tractors have would help.

Aligning the pin locations with the center cylinder is almost a 2 man job because you cannot pull on the cylinder to make it extend to match the pin hole. it is not the side to side movement its the length alignment.

Hey Matt,

individual tractors may be different. i am worknig in my home office, so I jsut took a coffee break and went to check on the Pin issues.

Here is what I did:

I raised the bucket and set it down gently on a stand, then relieved pressure using the joystick so that the down force and curl force were neutralized (Similar to how you do with a 3PH). I removed the retaining nut and bolt.

I used a composite "no bounce" hammer, and hit the pin at about 1/3rd force.

THE PIN SLID RIGHT OUT! When I hit it, it moved about 2 inches, I grabbed it, and started pulling and it starting sliding out the rest of the way in my hand!!

That was Easy.

A couple thoughts: How many hours of FEL work do you have on your machine? If it's newer, maybe it is still tight?
I have about 150 hours on my tractor, and I have unloaded and dumped about 80 yards of woodschips, several cords of wood, and done a lot of grapple debris clearing. So, I am only guessing , maybe mine have gotten enough use where they are free?

At any rate, I wouldn't do any machining or grinding on those pins!!!!
As I mentioned above, I would do some polishing ONLY. Just smooth the pins and sleeves.

I popped the center pin back in, and replaced the keeper bolt.


As far as aligning the center cylinder , if it was off a little, I would either use a lever on the attachment to bring it into alignment, or, I would use the joystick to get the center cylinder within 1/2" or 1/4", then using a foot lever (large screwdriver) make the final line-up.

I think the biggest factor is removing the pressure and tension on the bucket/pins when placing it on the floor or a stand. If you place it on the floor and just shut the machine off there could be 200 lbs. of down force on those pins, making them a booger to remove.

OK, this is all I need. I have to finish up a couple other projects, but then, I'll be looking at building a set of forks that PIN up to the stock pins.

Then maybe a full fledged dedicated debris grapple!! whoo hoo.

 

[Just2quickz28]

Maybe mine being at 50hrs is still a lil on the tight side. but I have a pain time lining up the pins on my plow because I need to extend the center cylinder about 3/4s of the way and then attach it (not set up with the same dimensions as the bucket)

Maybe some hitchpins (slipfit pins) would help the situation Hitch Pins Forged Product Info and Reviews | DoItYourself.com

Still looking for the no tool swap

 

[SkunkWerX]

Maybe mine being at 50hrs is still a lil on the tight side. but I have a pain time lining up the pins on my plow because I need to extend the center cylinder about 3/4s of the way and then attach it (not set up with the same dimensions as the bucket)

Maybe some hitchpins (slipfit pins) would help the situation Hitch Pins Forged Product Info and Reviews | DoItYourself.com

I think you would want a fairly tight fit, no rattling. You don't want to create a problem where your sleeve holes become oblonged or mis-shapen.

Try polishing your Pins. Maybe use some 1200 grit wet-dry paper, then tripoli/emery compound on a buffing wheel. I'll bet it's not going to take much , at all to get them to slide easier. And also, with use, they are goingto naturally get a little looser.

At low RPMs you should be able to dial that center cylinder in to within 1/16" or so of alignment. Making an alignment tool would probably be helpful.

 

[Just2quickz28]

I will have to take a picture of the snow plow when I get home from work to show the issue I have been having with the alignment of the center cylinder.

Might be time to break out the cutting torch and welder to adjust the snow plow

 

[SkunkWerX]

I will have to take a picture of the snow plow when I get home from work to show the issue I have been having with the alignment of the center cylinder.

Might be time to break out the cutting torch and welder to adjust the snow plow

A pic would be good.

Do you have a problem when re-installed the factory bucket back onto the factory pins? They should line up.

 

[RedDirt]

SkunkWerX
Very good to hear your pins came out so easily. Gives me a lot of hope that even if mine are more difficult I'll be able to loosen them with a bit of emery work. I have 115 hrs so I'm right in the middle of your hours and Just2quickz28's

For the pin alignment tool I have some scrap brass rod that I expected to use. This may still be a valuable tool especially for situations like Just2quickz28's plow that has a different alignment than the bucket.

The registration jig would not add any weight when operating. It is only intended to be used for the switch-over process, then removed for working.

 

[SkunkWerX]

SkunkWerX
Very good to hear your pins came out so easily. Gives me a lot of hope that even if mine are more difficult I'll be able to loosen them with a bit of emery work. I have 115 hrs so I'm right in the middle of your hours and Just2quickz28's

For the pin alignment tool I have some scrap brass rod that I expected to use. This may still be a valuable tool especially for situations like Just2quickz28's plow that has a different alignment than the bucket.

The registration jig would not add any weight when operating. It is only intended to be used for the switch-over process, then removed for working.

RedDirt,
The brass drift/pin guide would be a top notch device to have!
Consider having it turned down on one end so that it will handle the smaller outer pins as well as the larger center pin. The Center pin appears to be about 1 1/8" but I haven't put calipers on it yet.
Come to think of it, I have an old clutch alignment tool, maybe I could do similar.

I understand now what you mean by registration jig, I guess really it is just a means to hold up the center cylinder?

Next step will be for me to actually remove all the pins and the bucket, and time how long it takes. The center was pretty easy, wondering how the 2 outer pins will be?

 

[RedDirt]

RedDirt,
I understand now what you mean by registration jig, I guess really it is just a means to hold up the center cylinder?

Next step will be for me to actually remove all the pins and the bucket, and time how long it takes. The center was pretty easy, wondering how the 2 outer pins will be?

SkunkwerX,
Yes, the registration jig is just to hold/lock the arms and cylinder pins in the relation of the implement that has been (is going to be) removed. If all the loader implements have the same geometric configuration then aligning one pin will put the other two really close. Once the pins are installed in the changed over implement the jig is removed.

I just looked at my bx23 and the center cylinder is just above the arms so the jig can be as simple as a 2x4 quick clamped to the bottom of the arms, butted up to the loader stand pivot tabs for registration, and then a half moon ply saddle screwed to the edge of the 2x4 to hold the center cylinder. Maybe the cylinder could just rest in the saddle allowing it to raise by hand for minor adjustment. The bx24 is likely a bit different. I think they have curved loader arm whereas the bx23 has straight arms. So a slightly different jig but the same idea.

Once roughly aligned the alignment/sleever tool would come to play. I like your double-ended tool idea. The tool root diameter would be a slip fit of the pin and then the taper would be 1/2 the pin length and maybe 1/2 the pin diameter. A few light hammer taps of the tool in conjunction with a little implement jiggling with a lever should drive the alignment pin to the root diameter. Then pushing in the real pin would push out the alignment tool.

Let us know how (easy) your lower pins come out. I'll do the same when I get the chance to do the same, maybe in the next couple of days.

I think we are well on the way to make this a viable alternative to the added weight (and build time/cost) of a bone-fide quick connect.

 

[Just2quickz28]

It was pretty miserable out last night to try to take a picture of the plow. But the idea of a jig to hold up the center cylinder sounds like it would work.

Any ideas on how to get away with out needing a deadblow hammer and a driver to get the pins started? I am just thinking that for me the tools are in the basement workshop and the tractor and attachements are out in the carport thats a decent walk away.

 

[SkunkWerX]

Matt, in the short term I think you would be stuck with a mallet and dowel or piece of PVC pipe to drive out the pin. Perhaps they will lossen a bit and become more free with use and some polishing.

Red Dirt, the next thing will be to be able to produce the same geometry on the home built attachment. Shouldn't be too difficult, but, some attention to those measurements will be in order.

I won't trying to remove my lower pins in the next few days, so whoever does so, just post your findings.

Good luck.

 

[RedDirt]

I removed my bucket tonight. I had the luxury of doing this in my shop so I was not battling the elements.

I set the bucket on a couple of horses and relieved all hydraulic pressure. I built a simple registration jig in about ten minutes.



All three pins slid right out. A slight tap to start them and that was that. Took about five minutes including messing with the keeper pin cotters (I don't have bolts like Just2quickz28's). Can probably shave a minute or more from this by switching to quick pins.

I slid the bucket away from the arms, wiped down the pins and mic'd them then re-attached the bucket.

Took about ten minutes to slide the bucket back, align, smear a bit of grease on the pins by hand, insert the pins, keepers, straighten the cotters and insert them. I did have a pin alignment tool for the arm pins. It was just 3/4" wood dowel with a tapered end. The bucket is so light that was all that was needed. Didn't need one for the cylinder pin.

So we shave a couple of minutes by using quick pin keepers but add a couple of minutes shifting from one implement to the next. Looks like a minimum of 15 minutes, maybe a hair more breaking out and putting tools away and greasing zerks.

Not exactly "quick" but for the relatively few times I'll be changing front implements each year it is quick enough for me to forego building a bone fide quick attach system. Certainly it is easy, no real effort required.

Pin Diameters (inches) at bucket:

Loader Arms:
Pins: .7485 to .7495
Bush .765 to .770

Center curl cylinder:
Pin: 1.187 to 1.188
Bush 1.196 to 1.199 (1.202 at one wear spot)

Looks like about .015+/- is needed for for a pin "slip fit".

This machine has only 115 hours, 90 by previous owner so I don't know the loader history. There was no visible wear at the arm pins but one quadrant of one side of the cylinder pin had slight galling. Perhaps he missed a lube job.

 

[SkunkWerX]

Red Dirt,

Way to GO!!! You beat me to it, THANKS greatly for the pictures and posting this, great findings. And it supports what I found when I removed my center pin.

I agree with your asessment, not quite what you could call QUICK, but, I also won't be changing every hour or even daily.

I picture a rake/root grapple attachment, and some pallet forks.

The fork attachment I will probably rig up a [platre that will accept 3 point rear implements. Won't use them on front too much, but just for ease of loading them onto a trailer, or moving them around it would be nice. Also it would be there for any "home brewed" attachments.

Great progress and good findings!

Thanks again for you efforts!

 

[Just2quickz28]

O to have a garage . Great info I think part of my issue is that it has been so cold out and my machine is left in a car port.

I did get that ATI quick hitch from the not so local dealer at a reasonable price. It does not look like the pictures on the website, much beefier it probably weighs in at about 40 lbs. But as I suspected I do have to modify just to make it fit on the FEL arms.

The opening where the FEL arms slide into the bucket is a hair too small for my FEL arms (keep in mind this was made for the BX22/23 models)

I think the easiest solution for this is to slightly grind down the FEL arms where the pins go through. There is a bit of tubing that sticks out past the weld to meet the bucket. Does this sound like a good idea or will I be hurting the structurual integrity of the FEL arms?

The other option is to have a friend cut the ATI hitch up and make it a bit wider or heat it and and try to hammer a block of wood into the opening to widen it out.

I will take pictures if the weather cooperates tonight, I only have about 20mins of daylight when I get home from work

 

[RedDirt]

I got to thinking about the wear I discovered on the center cylinder pin. The wear of the bushing was on the opposite side as the wear on the pin. I think the previous owner may have been doing a lot of work involving curling the bucket with only a portion of the bucket width "loaded". His major project had been a retaining wall so I could see this happening as he may have been removing BH spoils unable to access the steep uphill side so he'd drive parallel the slope, on the flat, and his bucket would be loaded more on one side than the other.

...my machine is left in a car port.

The opening where the FEL arms slide into the bucket is a hair too small for my FEL arms (keep in mind this was made for the BX22/23 models)

I think the easiest solution for this is to slightly grind down the FEL arms where the pins go through. There is a bit of tubing that sticks out past the weld to meet the bucket. Does this sound like a good idea or will I be hurting the structurual integrity of the FEL arms?

Just2quick,
And those without even a carport would sure love to have one! That would have been me for 15 years before I had a shop. I had a Mr. Heater propane heater I'd snuggle up to next to my work. And temporary tarps overhead. But the mud...and loosing parts in gravel..uggg.

You're likely OK to remove a little metal for the protruding tubing at the arms. But on my arms this extension is only 1/8" to 3/32" so there isn't much material available to remove; maybe you've got more. I'd use a flat file instead of a grinder for removing for this little metal. Tape several of layers of cardboard on each end of the file. Run the file with the spacers riding on the arms until there is no more "bite" then remove a layer of cardboard from the spacer package. Continue removing spacers until the tube is decreased in length the amount needed. This will let you "mill" the tube extension almost perfectly parallel to the arms while controlling the depth of cut at each removal of spacer thickness. I'd leave at least 1/16" beyond the arms. Presuming Kubota has good penetration at their welds the tube should still be decently attached to the arms.

If your needed adjustment is wider then you'll need to resort to more drastic measures. Heating and bending tabs would be easier than cutting and welding a spacer. I'd look at whatever was easiest.

What, if anything, do you intend to do about the documented "weak point" of the ATI QA? (the ATI center pin attachment)

Skunk,
I think having a level, flat staging area will be the biggest time saver doing front implement changes. I'll probably build the implement rack I proposed earlier.

Let us know your results when you get the chance to test drive removing your pins so we can see if your results more-or-less match mine.

 

[Just2quickz28]

Just2quick,
And those without even a carport would sure love to have one! That would have been me for 15 years before I had a shop. I had a Mr. Heater propane heater I'd snuggle up to next to my work. And temporary tarps overhead. But the mud...and loosing parts in gravel..uggg.

True. I really could be worse off.

What, if anything, do you intend to do about the documented "weak point" of the ATI QA? (the ATI center pin attachment)

I most likely will not address this till it either bends or breaks.

,
I think having a level, flat staging area will be the biggest time saver doing front implement changes. I'll probably build the implement rack I proposed earlier.

I am hoping to build a rack for somethings as soon as the weather around here warms up put it out by one of my small sheds where I can drive up swap attachments.

And I will take some measurements and see how much I really need to take off the FEL bushings. And this weekend I will get some pictures of this ATI unit and modifications needed