Building a fireplace (ventless) question...

[Richard]

Wife won't allow a wood burning fireplace which is a shame since we have tons of wood...

She wants a ventless propane and all pipes have now been plumbed and making the fireplace is next.

Scenario: We can buy a firebox and propane logs (actually have already done this)

Now that we've bought the parts she wants to re-do it ($$$)

Are there any issues having a "wood burning" type fireplace built and using the propane fire logs in there.

So, to reword it.... take the propane fire logs out of the metal firebox and replace them back into a brick/mortar built in fireplace?

(the new setup would still be ventless)

 

[ace10]

Richard, you are treading on ground that is potentially very dangerous. Regardless of what is written in this thread following my post, I advise enlisting the help of a local expert in fireplaces. Again, this is a very serious territory. Life, health and property issues abound.


$0.02

 

[PAGUY]

How can you have a ventless wood fire?

 

[CobyRupert]

Wife won't allow...... Now that we've bought the parts she wants to re-do it ($$$)

I think I see your problem, but you probably don't want my advice on the solution.
But seriously, make sure whatever you do is safe. I think people do put propane fireplace inserts in fireplaces all the time.

 

[Richard]

Ace: In case you think that *I* am doing the work... that is wrong. I'm hiring a HVAC guy that does gas and he's done all the installation.

He installed the metal firebox "fireplace" for the ventless propane logs. We've just not yet built around it to make the outside pretty but, the "fireplace" itself is currently operational and working. Reason I put ($$) above is it is during this process that the wife has changed her mind and every time she changes her mind it gets more expensive!

PaGuy: we would have "ventless logs" in there. They are ceramic or something that won't burn and the flames surround the logs for a view and some heat. Actually, most (all) the heat dumps into the room and it's used to warm things up.


So let me reword this....

Let's pretend that anyone reading this thread has a professionally installed and properly working WOOD burning fireplace. Let us also presume that you have propane plumbed to the fireplace (let's not worry/quibble as to why)

Now, take your chimney and SEAL IT UP. You now have NO chimney!

As of this moment, your "wood burning" fireplace is useless..... but here's an idea...

Get some propane burning "logs" for a ventless fireplace, slide the ensemble into your fire area, plumb the propane to the input and turn it on.

What we've now done is swapped a "wood burning" fireplace for the standard metal box "fireplace" (that doesn't burn wood but instead, HOLDS the propane burners with the fake logs next to them)

There was no chimney built for the new "fireplace" since it won't be wood burning....it will house a VENTLESS system.

I personally don't see any issues. I also don't want to have someone go out of their way "willy nilly" since I live 15 miles out of town. I don't want to drag them out here unless I'm 99% sure it will work and we're going to do it.

Here's a picture of it. Essentially, it would be the following: (tried to upload picture and it didn't work, will try later)

1. Remove the propane burner from the inside of this fire box (that has no vent)
2. Build a stone , brick, whatever the material might be... "fireplace" in this location (that has no vent)
3. Insert the propane burner into the new enclosure (that has no vent)

The building of the "fireplace" would be done by someone who builds fireplaces (not me)
The installing of the propane "logs" into the new fireplace would be done by someone who plays with gas (not me)

My logic is, it's the propane burner that makes this "ventless" and not the "box". So I THINK I should be able to replace the "box" (build a "fireplace") and move it over.

This metal box is in my view, pretty cheesy feeling.

(it would be so much easier if the wife simply allowed a traditional wood burning (with chimney) fireplace but, I digress)

 

[Richard]

Seems I got it to work this time. Here is the "fireplace" of mention. The goal is to take the outer metal "shell" and replace it with stone or whatever a REAL fireplace is made from... and keep it ventless.

We'll then add the cabinets to the sides that she's got on her build list.

 

[ace10]

Richard, all I am saying is that there is much concern over unmodified, properly-installed ventless fireplace units. What you are proposing is modifying ventless equipment for a use not intended by the manufacturer.

I cannot think of something I would less-likely do than what you are proposing. Just stating my mind here.

If something were to go wrong, who takes responsibility?

The manufacturer? Nope
The installer? Nope, he'll fold his LLC and have wording on the contract to protect himself.
Insurance company? Probably not.

Is the local jurisdiction inspectors going to sign off on this work?

Don't let you wife decide something this important. This isn't like selecting the color of floor tile or where to hang a picture.


I promise not to further clutter your thread.

 

[/pine]

Check the specs and see what the minimum clearance to combustible materials is...
To change the looks to your liking some framing may be required...

I've seen fire rated cement board screwed to all the sheet metal facets and then covered with stone,tile,brick etc...

 

[tman1020]

From my understanding properly rated gas logs can be added to wood-burning fireplaces. There is no such thing as truly ventless fireplaces. If you are combusting something it has to vent to somewhere. if you read the instructions on "ventless" items they require you to open the windows to a certain amount. there goes your efficiency.when gas logs are properly installed in wood-burning fireplaces the dampers are blocked open a small amount. I think building a proper wood-burning fireplace and then adding a gas log to it is a good option. Seems like the safest way to go and then if you change your mind and get sick of wasting money on gas you can always use it as a normal wood fireplace. always a good idea to have functioning CO2 detectors when you're having any type of combustion. Two years ago I just ripped out a gas log wood-burning stove to replace it with a true wood-burning stove best decision I ever made. Through the Old unit into the scrapheap it was an expensive one too,cost a fortune to run.

 

[PILOON]

Even propane need to be vented as it produces excessive moisture as well as depletes oxygen in the house.
Use a pro and be sure the unit is CSA or ULC rated.

 

[Egon]

For some reason I'd rather not have a ventless propane fireplace. Gotta be some health issues.

 

[PAGUY]

I now realize what you were trying to say.

First - You would need to build a chimney and fireplace.

Second - You would then have the option of burning wood or using a gas insert w/fake logs.

Third - ventless as stated above would still require some type of ventilation.

Fourth - propane/natural gas would require open window or damper in fireplace slightly open. moisture and/or co will be a by-product of gas fire.

 

[hr3]

Read this and then decide ,, Your unit has a built in co2 detector and designed in such a way to work as the air flows in your steel enclosure.. Any modifications hmm,,, and it will be more unsafe than it already is,, A Ventless Gas Fireplace Doesn

 

[dave1949]

You can put a gas log set (minus the metal enclosure) into an existing wood burning fireplace. So yes, I believe you could have a standard wood-burning fireplace built and convert it to gas logs. That wood-burning fireplace would have a chimney and I don't know why you wouldn't want to use it. It is an extra expense to build a chimney--see below. Another gas fire chimney option is a double wall flexible tube that runs inside the chimney from the top to the fireplace.

What is shown in your picture is a gas unit designed to be built into standard framing (with clearances and fire resistant sheathing covering the framing). The unit I would chose for that type of build would have a through-the-wall double pipe (combined in one wall hole) vent and air intake. There are a million and one fireplace surrounds you can chose from to dress it up and provide a mantle should you desire one. There are codes to follow regarding the proximity of the vent to windows and doors.

A gas log set inside a double wall metal enclosure--which works as a hot air plenum--provides much more heat when a circulating fan is used. This is pretty much a standard approach for homes that want a bit of flame ambiance, space heat for a room area, and don't mind burning plenty of LP or NG. They are typically vented through an exterior wall which also provides the combustion air from outside.

 

[cmyoung2]

I have put gas logs into a "wood burning fireplace" and just closed the damper. Now have inserts in the fireplaces and burn wood. The ventless propane logs tended to leave gray "soot" in curtains and windows and the wife could not live with the odor from the gas logs. Have the same issues with the gas kitchen stove, but that is more occasional use and we can deal with it. And it is not that our house is not well ventilated, 130 year old farm house, you can see the curtains move when it is windy. We will never have unvented gas again.

 

[L48man]

Working in house construction I have begun to see them more and more in new homes (very expensive homes). The look of true masonry fireplace with only gas logs, at a lower cost.
Sorry I don't know how to add a link to a web site but I believe this is what your talking about. Masonry Fireplace Kits | Prefabricated Fireplace: Mason-Lite
And as others have stressed make sure you have a co2 detector in the room.

 

[SSdoxie]

I installed ventless propane log set in my masonry (wood burning) fireplace 15 years ago, and still working fine. I formed a piece of sheet metal to fit in top of the fireplace to block off the flue so wasn't heating up the chimney, used this a primary source of heat for 12 years until I installed a heat pump with propane backup on it.

 

[Morning Wood]

Ventless sucks. Don't do it. It dumps a ton of moisture into the home and smells awful. You just don't know it smells because you get used to it. That said, I would not modify any ventless unit whatsoever. It isn't worth risking death.

 

[forgeblast]

We have a Home | J jotul. This is a direct vent and looks like a wood stove. They sell the inserts.
I love the stove we have. It has a battery thermostat, when the power goes out we still have heat. It looks like a wood stove and yet no smoke and no mess.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/213935-rustic-fireplace-mantle.html is the post I did about our mantle.
woops this is the full post http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/252940-mantle.html?highlight=mantle

 

[txdon]

So, to reword it.... take the propane fire logs out of the metal firebox and replace them back into a brick/mortar built in fireplace?

In my opinion it would be a wash except it is a lot less expensive to bypass the metal box and just buy some ceramic gas logs for the brick and mortar fire place. (but you already know that.) Like others have said using the word ventless is not appropriate as the fire burns it needs lots of air (24 times the amount of propane burned) so a window will have to stay open when burning. You will be relieving the (repositioned) gas log company of all liability when you move them and you will be assuming all responsibility - notify your insurance company to see how this will affect you coverage and premiums. You don't want to find out afterwards, when making a claim, that the modifications nullified your policy.

You will also get all of the by-products of the propane burned gas dumping into the room (the thought of this might mess up the "Ambiance" that your wife is seeking) which is carbon-dioxide and water vapor - so you might need a dehumidifier and the air will get stuffy. If the burn is not perfectly adjusted periodically you will get the by-product carbon monoxide which creeps un-noticed slowly and is deadly - another Ambiance killer - literally.

I had gas logs but they were vented in a regular fireplace and a window was opened. Very clean, inexpensive "Ambiance". However with the draw from the open window it could not be considered a heat source, but breathing was easy.

I now have a vented in and vented out wood stove (installed to specs and insurance co. inspected) in a well insulated house which can take over the central heating 100%.

Products of Complete and Incomplete Combustion

What I don't understand is that by code all gas water heaters MUST be vented - even in the attic - but a ventless fireplace in the house is OK??????