Big box stores: Inferior tools?

[Soundguy]

if you are actually gonna do that as a group. to cut costs.. find someone who has actually just bought one of these models that are seemingly duped.. that way you only have to buy one more... then cut open and count the rings...

 

[k0ua]

Ours is not the only forum to tackle this.. but they are all hear say until someone buys those 2 Dewalt drills and takes them apart, and takes pictures of all the guts. Just to be clear, I don't think anyone is arguing that the big box stores have some tools that look like higher quality tools, and may have a nearly identical Model number, but may be or most likely are a lower quality at a lower price point. The only thing in dispute is that there are tools with identical model numbers but are of inferior quality delivered to the Home Depot, and can be identified by their serial numbers by those that know how to decode them.. Again I am in the I don't know camp now. I pooh poohed this idea at first, but I am willing to be shown that this is true now. So many of you with professional credentials have come down on the lower class tools at Home Depot side, I am willing to listen, and be shown. As a vote for who we could trust department. I would vote for Bird as he is an old timer here and I would deem more trustworthy than some of you (or me for that matter)

James K0UA from the "show me state"

Is there any truth to Home Depot / Lowes power tools being cheaply made equivilants of the real thing? - Yahoo! Answers

Does Home Depot sell inferior power tools? - Straight Dope Message Board

Are tools sold at Home Depot of a lesser quality than those bought at a reputable tool supply shop

https://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=3087

Home Depot quality? | Fine Homebuilding | Breaktime

 

[Carl Bert]

LD1, yes my thoughts exactly. However some have put forth good arguments that this may be happening. When some of the professionals on here state for a fact they have torn apart the items and they are different, I have to take notice. I am certainly not a plumbing professional (yes the thread went off into plumbing and I believe it started with tools!) so I feel the need to listen to those that are. BUT I would still like someone to take the time and money to get two identical model number Kohler faucets, one from a plumbing supply, and one from Home Depot, and two Dewalt drills one from a local industrial supply, and one from Home Depot, making sure the model numbers were exactly the same, and tear them down and with photo's please show us the differences. I just don't know, and gut feelings and logic are not going to prove anything at this point when we have so many good people on each side of this issue. What say, someone?

James K0UA

I'm all for it. With the faucet, don't only inspect the differences, but also weigh the faucet itself. The metal that is used, is supposed to be thinner. As for the power tools, you should get a Milwaukee. As said before, Ryobi probably doesn't do it, because they only make cheap tools, and pretty much sell for the same price no matter where you buy them. Dewalt, no one had any definite facts about, so your best bet, if you want to find out the truth, would be a Milwaukee cordless drill. I may just do it myself on Monday, if I can get gas. Long lines at the stations since Sandy

 

[k0ua]

I'm all for it. With the faucet, don't only inspect the differences, but also weigh the faucet itself. The metal that is used, is supposed to be thinner. As for the power tools, you should get a Milwaukee. As said before, Ryobi probably doesn't do it, because they only make cheap tools, and pretty much sell for the same price no matter where you buy them. Dewalt, no one had any definite facts about, so your best bet, if you want to find out the truth, would be a Milwaukee cordless drill. I may just do it myself on Monday, if I can get gas. Long lines at the stations since Sandy

OK Milwaukee then, that would be good.. I have used some very tough Milwaukee drills in my old cable pulling days. Now that said, I believe that they are all made in China now, and I don't know if the quality is as good of the old days or not. But the point is, a Milwaukee that is model number abc123 at an industrial supply and model number abc123 at Home Depot are they the same or not?

James K0UA

 

[Carl Bert]

OK Milwaukee then, that would be good.. I have used some very tough Milwaukee drills in my old cable pulling days. Now that said, I believe that they are all made in China now, and I don't know if the quality is as good of the old days or not. But the point is, a Milwaukee that is model number abc123 at an industrial supply and model number abc123 at Home Depot are they the same or not?

James K0UA

Once again, if you read back in the thread, Its been said some manufacturers use the model number and some use the serial number to distinguish between the tools. If its the model number, it will be the same number with an additional letter or two at the end, but it will be the identical looking tool. I know some will say, different model number, different tool, but how many people look at and compare model numbers of a milwaukee cordless drill for example. This has been the point I have been trying to make from the beginning. No one is trying to say that HD and Lowes are doing something illegal, although it should be. They are just taking a tool, that lets say usually sells to the distributer for $100 and they tell the manufacturer to make it for $70. So the manufacturer takes the tool and uses cheaper parts to meet the price. Now its up to the manufacturer whether he uses the model number or serial number to tell which is which. I always thought it was the model number, but as some professionals have said, it also could be the serial number.

 

[jymbee]

Count me in. I think it would be an interesting experiment.

It seems if two items were selected for the test and there turned out to be a "smoking gun" so to speak, that would be quite revealing. However if no differences were found, that would just mean that those particular items from those particular vendors were identical-- and not conclusive proof that the issue of different quality parts does exist for other combiinations of vendors & models.

But hey, that's what conspiracy theories are all about in the first place!

alright, lets all pool some money together and nominate a member to do just this. I have paypal and will put up some money to satisfy my curiosity. I say we go for home depot, and maybe grainger or fastenal.

 

[jymbee]

I pooh poohed this idea at first, but I am willing to be shown that this is true now. So many of you with professional credentials have come down on the lower class tools at Home Depot side, I am willing to listen, and be shown.

I too was a pooh-pooer initially based on the early input here. Then I slid into the "maybe" camp, then back to poo-pooh, then back to "maybe", then "now that makes sense"! Getting a bit dizzy...

 

[LD1]

I say we go by model number. Becasue EVERY SN is different and unique. (or at least it should be)

I am like koua in that I am not so hard headed to be proven wrong. Show me, and I will believe. BUT....showing be a model abc123 compared to abc123a isnt gonna cut the mustard with me. the PN's HAVE to be the SAME. Not close, or not with extra #'s or letters, but IDENTICAL.

I too would like to second the nomination for BIRD. Didnt he used to repair air tools??

 

[Carl Bert]

I say we go by model number. Becasue EVERY SN is different and unique. (or at least it should be)

I am like koua in that I am not so hard headed to be proven wrong. Show me, and I will believe. BUT....showing be a model abc123 compared to abc123a isnt gonna cut the mustard with me. the PN's HAVE to be the SAME. Not close, or not with extra #'s or letters, but IDENTICAL.

I too would like to second the nomination for BIRD. Didnt he used to repair air tools??

To start off, serial numbers can be used to identify two different model tools. Serial numbers can have groups, such as all serial numbers that start with "A" and all serial numbers that start with "B", would be a way of distinguishing between two tools that are identical, but one with cheaper parts. You are not going to find the exact model # and serial (lets call it group codes) on two different tools. If the numbers are exact, the tools are exact. First reason would be that it would be fraud to do so, and the second and more obvious would be, that there would be no way to identify the tool for future parts

From the beginning of this post I have been stating that the model numbers are not identical. HD products for example will use the same model number and add a letter or two, lets say Milwaukee 18V cordless drill Model #1032, and for home depot products it might be, Milwaukee 18V cordless drill Model #1032HD. If you had the two tools in you hand, they would look identical, but have different parts, such as maybe metal gears opposed to plastic.

If you're going to do the test not knowing this, you may just wind up comparing the same two tools. The best way to know that you are getting one of the good quality tools and one of the poorer quality ones, would be to buy one from Grainger and one from HD. We all know that Grainger sells the very best and charges for it.

 

[LD1]

To start off, serial numbers can be used to identify two different model tools. Serial numbers can have groups, such as all serial numbers that start with "A" and all serial numbers that start with "B", would be a way of distinguishing between two tools that are identical, but one with cheaper parts. You are not going to find the exact model # and serial (lets call it group codes) on two different tools. If the numbers are exact, the tools are exact. First reason would be that it would be fraud to do so, and the second and more obvious would be, that there would be no way to identify the tool for future parts

From the beginning of this post I have been stating that the model numbers are not identical. HD products for example will use the same model number and add a letter or two, lets say Milwaukee 18V cordless drill Model #1032, and for home depot products it might be, Milwaukee 18V cordless drill Model #1032HD. If you had the two tools in you hand, they would look identical, but have different parts, such as maybe metal gears opposed to plastic.

If you're going to do the test not knowing this, you may just wind up comparing the same two tools. The best way to know that you are getting one of the good quality tools and one of the poorer quality ones, would be to buy one from Grainger and one from HD. We all know that Grainger sells the very best and charges for it.

So it seems that we are on the same page??? in that IF the model number is IDENTICAL, the toos are identical??? Cause thats what I have been saying, BUT some say that tools can have the EXACT same model #, but be different and only way to know is the SN. THOSE are the tools that I (and I think k0ua) would like to see compaired. And NOT something with a similar but slightly different Model #

 

[jymbee]

... some say that tools can have the EXACT same model #, but be different and only way to know is the SN. THOSE are the tools that I (and I think k0ua) would like to see compaired. And NOT something with a similar but slightly different Model #

Yes, that's EXACTLY the issue under discussion. I thought virtually all agreed that slightly different model numbers of the same tool might well be an indication of different components.

But if model #123abc of Tool X purchased from BigBox, was found to have different components than Tool X with model #123abc purchased at Grainger e.g. there would be smoke coming from the proverbial gun...

 

[LD1]

But if model #123abc of Tool X purchased from BigBox, was found to have different components than Tool X with model #123abc purchased at Grainger e.g. there would be smoke coming from the proverbial gun...

And that is exactally whay some say is happening and exactally what I am skeptical of until proven otherwise.

I think we can all agree that there is most likely a difference in quality IF you are comparing abc123 to abc123a right?

 

[Carl Bert]

Yes, that's EXACTLY the issue under discussion. I thought virtually all agreed that slightly different model numbers of the same tool might well be an indication of different components.

But if model #123abc of Tool X purchased from BigBox, was found to have different components than Tool X with model #123abc purchased at Grainger e.g. there would be smoke coming from the proverbial gun...

Well if you go back to post #50, which was when I first chimed in to this discussion, I clearly state that the tools look identical but the model numbers are slightly different. Keep reading and you will see how many still disagreed. Then some plumbers stated that with plumbing fixtures, models are the same and serials are different (group codes). Then somewhere along the line guys started saying, that we have to compare tools that have exact same numbers. That was not the argument, at least not my argument.

 

[jymbee]

Well if you go back to post #50, which was when I first chimed in to this discussion, I clearly state that the tools look identical but the model numbers are slightly different. Keep reading and you will see how many still disagreed. Then some plumbers stated that with plumbing fixtures, models are the same and serials are different (group codes). Then somewhere along the line guys started saying, that we have to compare tools that have exact same numbers. That was not the argument, at least not my argument.

Carl,

I see your point, but having read all of the messages here it seems to me that the discussion now at least has come around to whether identical model numbers can be different between tools sold by BB vs. pro distributors.

Someone else pointed out that there were many similar discussions out there and when I did some searches I found that to be true. Not only are there oodles (my unofficial count) of such discussions, but virtually all are amazingly similar to this one. The names are different but the sentiments are nearly identical-- from both points of view.

But in all of the other posts I read I never was able to find a single post made where someone demonstrated conclusively that two tools with the same model number had different parts. Not one.

Also, in vitually all search results I came up with-- by any search terms I could think of to use-- led to these types of discussion groups. Not a single authorative page where some whistle blower for example came forward with evidence.

All this means little to nothing of course, but it does seem strange to me that given what seems to be such a popular theory of inferior tools, that nothing pops up to support that theory other than opinions expressed on discussion forums.

 

[Carl Bert]

Carl,

I see your point, but having read all of the messages here it seems to me that the discussion now at least has come around to whether identical model numbers can be different between tools sold by BB vs. pro distributors.

Someone else pointed out that there were many similar discussions out there and when I did some searches I found that to be true. Not only are there oodles (my unofficial count) of such discussions, but virtually all are amazingly similar to this one. The names are different but the sentiments are nearly identical-- from both points of view.

But in all of the other posts I read I never was able to find a single post made where someone demonstrated conclusively that two tools with the same model number had different parts. Not one.

Also, in vitually all search results I came up with-- by any search terms I could think of to use-- led to these types of discussion groups. Not a single authorative page where some whistle blower for example came forward with evidence.

All this means little to nothing of course, but it does seem strange to me that given what seems to be such a popular theory of inferior tools, that nothing pops up to support that theory other than opinions expressed on discussion forums.

Ok I have some new found information. I Purchased a Milwaukee cordless drill from HD about 6 months ago. It was on special, so for the price I figured why not. I just went and got it out of my shop to compare it to what Grainger sells. This is what I got. First, they are absolute EXACT clones of one another. Second, they both have the EXACT same specs. The only difference I can see is what is listed as a CAT NO. on the drill (at least I think its CAT., The drills a little scuffed so its hard to read). Anyway the Home Depot number is 2601-20 and the Grainger number is 2601-22.

If I had the Grainger drill in my hand, all questions would be answered. Does anyone out there have this drill with cat number 2601-22, if so we can both open them up and swap pics. That should give us some definite answers

The Grainger one is on special, so that pretty much says that its not a new model that just came out

 

[s219]

The Milwaukee website shows both the 2601-20 and -22. The -20 is tool only, while -22 is tool and batteries, so this might not be a good test case.

I will mention that my dad works for a manufacturing company that makes springs and stampings, and they have made parts for power tools for decades. The earliest memory I had on the subject was hearing about how Sears Craftsman tools (always made by another manufacturer) had some peculiar differences in parts specs. I remember they had parts in a Makita drill and its Sears twin, and the Sears unit got better specs and a higher price. It's not directly related to the discussion here, but I definitely think companies can spec out their tools in an infinite number of ways to meet a desired price target, market, and duty cycle.

 

[LD1]

The Milwaukee website shows both the 2601-20 and -22. The -20 is tool only, while -22 is tool and batteries, so this might not be a good test case.

Yep, thats the same thing I found out. And IMO, would actually be a good candidate, since PN's are Identical.

2601-20 tool only at HD is $99 and grainger is $118
2601-22 combo kit is the same price both places @ $159

So is the grainger one higher quality than the box-store "junk"???? or is grainger selling "junk" as well???? or.....could it be that the tools are actually the same????

 

[LD1]

It seems we have two groups of folks.

1. those like me who believe that IF the model numbers are identical, then the item is the same.
2. those who believe there is a difference even IF the model numbers are identical, but one is bought at a supply house and the other at a BB store.

Quick re-cap of who is in group 2:

note: there were others who chimed in and agreed with some of these that I didnt quote, because they didnt specifically say it, and it makes it difficult to quote, because only thier quote appears and not the quote of the person they quoted.

Buy a set of faucets from Lowes and buy the same brand/model from a plumbing supply house and take them apart. Plastic crap in Lowes and brass in plumbing house set. Boxes look the same. Not sure if this applies to tools.

Also, a item may have the same part number, but the serial number is what really counts. Manufacturers will have multiple suppliers building sub-assemblies for them. You will never know where or how that item was build until you need service on it.
"snip"

That statement could not possibly be more incorrect. The thing I am shocked about, is how many people are unaware of this fact. This is not a big secret, as I said before its common knowledge.

In response to :

But if you compare the exact same plumbing fixture in a big box store and the exact same fixture in a plumbing store, they are the same thing. The only difference is the price.

I have seen two Makita angle grinders, same model number different prices. One says made in Japan, one says made in China. Same model number on both.

In the past, I have seen w/ my own eyes, the exact same faucet
that I would buy at a supply house, I have seen it's quality and I have
seen the exact same part number at HD and it was cheapened TREMENDOUSLY.
"snip"
.

Putting cheaper components in tools that have the same case and model number has been going on for a long time.
"snip"

Well it seems there arent as many in the group 2 camp as I first though.

Any of you guys have any proof? Pictures? model number for model number...show us dis-believers the difference.

 

[Carl Bert]

The Milwaukee website shows both the 2601-20 and -22. The -20 is tool only, while -22 is tool and batteries, so this might not be a good test case.

I will mention that my dad works for a manufacturing company that makes springs and stampings, and they have made parts for power tools for decades. The earliest memory I had on the subject was hearing about how Sears Craftsman tools (always made by another manufacturer) had some peculiar differences in parts specs. I remember they had parts in a Makita drill and its Sears twin, and the Sears unit got better specs and a higher price. It's not directly related to the discussion here, but I definitely think companies can spec out their tools in an infinite number of ways to meet a desired price target, market, and duty cycle.

Ok that makes sense. ****, I thought I had the perfect solution to this unanswered question.

Ok I have one more story. I am at my brother in laws house and let him read this thread. Besides the fact that he couldn't believe how many people are ignorant to what goes on in these BB stores, but he also had a story.

His friend Eddie who works for a plumbing supply store, was in HD and saw a Ridged power tool that he wanted. He figured he could get it cheaper through his ridged supplier, so,he took down the model number. When he asked the supplier to get him the tool, the supplier said that model is made only for Home Depot, and could not be bought elsewhere. He didn't say why or that it was made cheaper, he just said he could not sell it to him.

I know this seems a bit coincidental, but I am telling you the truth. This is what he said.

 

[Soundguy]

i don't doubt that there are some too lines that are distributed only thru some palces. as I mentioned. i bought some uniroyal tires at a walmart one time.. wanted to get some more and was at a tire dealer who sold uniroyal. when he say the # on mine.. he told me that exact model of tire was a walmart only uniroyal.

now back to the post LD talked about.

same model number.. prefic and suffix and all.. that's the camp I'm in.

I'd need to see that the exact same model # has different parts.

that said.. i think we will have very few examples of the exact same tool sold at multiple places.

that said.. i would not always count on the tool sold in a multi pack being 100% identical to the tool sold alone. it does carry a differnt id number.. and COULD be different. I could easilly see that.

lets keep looking at what tools we have and see if others have same tools sold from different stores.