Big box stores: Inferior tools?

[Carl Bert]

Some manufacturers choose to make a slight change in the model number, such as adding a letter or two, at the end. Others choose to use the serial numbers, also just by starting or ending it with a certain number or letter, to distinguish between the two. It doesn't really matter how they choose to do it, it just matters that everyone is aware that it's being done.

Again that doesn't mean these tools are junk, it just depends on how it's going to be used. For the average homeowner, I'm sure they are fine. If you're a contractor, then I believe its foolish, because in the long run, you will replace that tool 2 maybe 3 times, in comparison to the life of a quality one. Been there, done that.

Believe it, don't believe it, thats up to you.

 

[Artisan]

Perhaps this can be confirmed by someone here,
but I heard;


I heard that manufacturers do NOT sell there product to
the home centers but they are FORCED to "Floor" the merchandise
at their own expense and they are paid after it sells. Case
and point, I know around here at the home stores you usually
see guys in the tool isle wearing brand name matching
shirts and pushing "their" wears, why? Becuase they
have not been sold yet!

Case and point 2, Manufacturers can be seen in the isles
taking stock of their wares, straightening and organizing
things, why? Because it is not sold and they have to do it!

Home Centers are some of the largest money producing
retailers in the world per square foot.

Additionally have you noticed that when the big box stores
open the prices are all really low? Then when all the mom
and pop stores fold the prices go up A LOT ???

Believe It...

 

[Gator6x4]

Let's see if I understand all the FACTS? Mom and Pop stores, and other Retailers sell legitimate tools. Big Box stores sell knock offs. They may look like the real thing, but in reality they are knock offs.

I wonder how they have been successful in by-passing Federal and State Laws. Who is getting money to look the other way while all this deception is going on? Manufacturing facilities also have dual production lines. On one line they make quality model number XYZ tools. On the other line they make knock offs or inferior XYZ tools.

Having two production lines would also require the Manufacture to have two different warranty or return departments. Now this part gets really complicated because how is the poor consumer to know if the tool he purchased was the Real Thing or a Knock Off?

So that would mean when it comes to a tool being repaired or replaced one must rely solely on the good will of the seller. The manufacture would not be involved because the tool would have to be disassembled so it could be determined if it was the Real Thing or a Knock Off? We all know the retailer nor does the manufacture have the resources to disassemble tools and check wire size, measure plating, check wire winding, etc to determine if the tool is the Real Thing or a Knock Off?

I think the problem is not manufactures making two types of tools I think the problem is, consumers are looking for and buying the cheapest tool. Dewalt for example makes four and one half inch die grinders. The grinders start with motors around 4.5 AMPS and go up to motors with 13-15 AMPs motors. A consumer goes in a buys one of the 4.5 AMP motor grinders at the Big Box Store. About half way through an eight hour job he burns the motor up.
Now another consumer goes into a Retail store and buys a 13 AMP motor grinder and uses the grinder for hours daily and never has a problem.

The same apply to circular saws, drills, etc. If you want quality tools look at the size of the motor. If it says .8 AMPS on the drill for motor size do not buy it. Place it back on the shelf and continue looking.

 

[Pops15]

No, they're not knock offs. A knock off would be another company making a cheaper version of a quality piece.
Just what federal or state laws are they breaking?
It can be done on one production line. Again, read Smilingreen's posts #72 and #73.
Nowhere have I seen where anyone claims the lesser quality tool with the same model number as a higher quality tool has a different warranty. Pretty much anything will last until the warranty expires.
They can use the serial number to tell where the tool was sold. No need to disassemble anything.
I agree that some manufacturers have several models of varying quality, but they are clearly marketed as such and not at all what this discussion is about.

 

[Pilot]

I'm with the "nonsense" crowd. I suspect the difference in the last digit of the model number relates to a routine change in design or component source during the production run. A purchasing agent found a cheaper source and started buying from them, regardless of who the retailer might eventually be. So if you have a problem with the unit, you need the complete model number to get an exact replacement part. And that's all there is to it. Go back later to your favorite retailer and compare model numbers with the big box store's units and they will be the same simply because they were built at about the same time, whereas when you went earlier the numbers were different because one was built earlier and has sat in stock longer than the ones the big box store carried.

 

[EddieWalker]

So if I understand how this works, you know for a fact that a certain company that makes tools that are sold in both box stores and mom and pops stores, makes this tool with quality parts for the mom and pop store, and cheaper parts for the box store. You know this for a fact because your relative works there and if you said what company this is, the people who run the company that makes this tool will know which one of it's thousands of employees told you this because your screen name is secretely known to them and they will be able to find out who the employee is who told you this information is through your screen name on this site?

I'm impressed. They got some super powerful mojo to be able to do all that!!!!

Does anybody else know of a company who makes two version of the same tool that is sold today in both the box store and a mom and pop store with the same model number but a differen serial number? I understant if you have a relative, friend of a friend or even a friends relatives neighbor who works there and you can't give up the secrete because it's too easy to trace your screen name to where they work. But if you can, I sure would appreciate knowing what company actually does this.

Thank you,
Eddie

 

[Soundguy]

They don't want different model numbers on tools. .

but they commonly DO.

as aczlan pointed out.. and I have seen it too... same unit.. different prefix or suffix on the model number.. thus.. different model numer.

very effective at killing price match guarantees..e tc.

 

[Soundguy]

very plausible too.. I wondered alound earlier in the thread about mid term revisions on a product.. etc...

I'm with the "nonsense" crowd. I suspect the difference in the last digit of the model number relates to a routine change in design or component source during the production run. A purchasing agent found a cheaper source and started buying from them, regardless of who the retailer might eventually be. So if you have a problem with the unit, you need the complete model number to get an exact replacement part. And that's all there is to it. Go back later to your favorite retailer and compare model numbers with the big box store's units and they will be the same simply because they were built at about the same time, whereas when you went earlier the numbers were different because one was built earlier and has sat in stock longer than the ones the big box store carried.

 

[Pops15]

So if I understand how this works, you know for a fact that a certain company that makes tools that are sold in both box stores and mom and pops stores, makes this tool with quality parts for the mom and pop store, and cheaper parts for the box store. You know this for a fact because your relative works there and if you said what company this is, the people who run the company that makes this tool will know which one of it's thousands of employees told you this because your screen name is secretely known to them and they will be able to find out who the employee is who told you this information is through your screen name on this site?

I'm impressed. They got some super powerful mojo to be able to do all that!!!!

Does anybody else know of a company who makes two version of the same tool that is sold today in both the box store and a mom and pop store with the same model number but a differen serial number? I understant if you have a relative, friend of a friend or even a friends relatives neighbor who works there and you can't give up the secrete because it's too easy to trace your screen name to where they work. But if you can, I sure would appreciate knowing what company actually does this.

Thank you,
Eddie

That's not what I said. They work for the retailers, not the tool companies. I'm not going to say where on the off chance it could get them in trouble with their employers.
Eddie, I thought you would have been above resorting to sarcasm.
I'm done with this topic.
You all believe whatever you want to believe. I believe what I know to be fact.

 

[Carl Bert]

Let's see if I understand all the FACTS? Mom and Pop stores, and other Retailers sell legitimate tools. Big Box stores sell knock offs. They may look like the real thing, but in reality they are knock offs.

I wonder how they have been successful in by-passing Federal and State Laws. Who is getting money to look the other way while all this deception is going on? Manufacturing facilities also have dual production lines. On one line they make quality model number XYZ tools. On the other line they make knock offs or inferior XYZ tools.

Having two production lines would also require the Manufacture to have two different warranty or return departments. Now this part gets really complicated because how is the poor consumer to know if the tool he purchased was the Real Thing or a Knock Off?

So that would mean when it comes to a tool being repaired or replaced one must rely solely on the good will of the seller. The manufacture would not be involved because the tool would have to be disassembled so it could be determined if it was the Real Thing or a Knock Off? We all know the retailer nor does the manufacture have the resources to disassemble tools and check wire size, measure plating, check wire winding, etc to determine if the tool is the Real Thing or a Knock Off?

I think the problem is not manufactures making two types of tools I think the problem is, consumers are looking for and buying the cheapest tool. Dewalt for example makes four and one half inch die grinders. The grinders start with motors around 4.5 AMPS and go up to motors with 13-15 AMPs motors. A consumer goes in a buys one of the 4.5 AMP motor grinders at the Big Box Store. About half way through an eight hour job he burns the motor up.
Now another consumer goes into a Retail store and buys a 13 AMP motor grinder and uses the grinder for hours daily and never has a problem.

The same apply to circular saws, drills, etc. If you want quality tools look at the size of the motor. If it says .8 AMPS on the drill for motor size do not buy it. Place it back on the shelf and continue looking.

Wow!!! Do you live in Disney World pal? Where does this stuff come from? Lets start off by asking, how old are you, seriously. This post is borderline ridiculous. Please, don't even offer input, if its not going to make some sort of sense.

I give up on this thread, why even listen to this level of ignorance.

 

[Carl Bert]

That's not what I said. They work for the retailers, not the tool companies. I'm not going to say where on the off chance it could get them in trouble with their employers.
Eddie, I thought you would have been above resorting to sarcasm.
I'm done with this topic.
You all believe whatever you want to believe. I believe what I know to be fact.

Pops, don't waste your time trying to help these two out. They are beyond help. What you stated, most of us know to be true, but some people still believe the earth is square, and you are not going to change their minds, no matter what you say.

 

[EddieWalker]

Pops, don't waste your time trying to help these two out. They are beyond help. What you stated, most of us know to be true, but some people still believe the earth is square, and you are not going to change their minds, no matter what you say.

For those of us who are not as knowledgable as you, why wont you share with us an example of a tool that is sold at the box store and the mom and pop store with the same model number, but different serial number that has different parts inside of it?

Eddie

 

[Chilly807]

Y'all are gettin' hot under the collars here !

I'm pretty sure the model numbers won't match on a lot of items, since there really are some differences. Welders are a good example.. Lincoln makes several different 220V mig welders, some are designed for casual use, some for semi-pro, and then there are the really good (read expensive) ones. If you do your research before you buy, there's a good reason why the Home Depot model is a fair bit cheaper than the one you buy at a welding supply shop. Things like aluminum windings, plastic drive gearboxes, gas hookups, etc.

Grinders are the same. I used to think that length of warranty was a good indicator, but it really isn't. If you were making industrial use angle grinders that were going to be used for 4 or more hours a day, how long would you warrant them for? A year is typical in the industry. If they warrant it for life, you're paying for at least three of them right up front.

Most home use angle grinders won't see 4 hours of use in their lifetime. That's why you can buy them for $19.99 on sale at Canadian Tire, with a three year warranty. I'm on my 2nd or 3rd.. under warranty of course. Doesn't help much when it packs it in 2/3 of the way through a welding job on Sunday evening and I'm an hour drive from the store, even if it WAS open, which it isn't.

Box stores can sell for less on the same identical item if they get enough of a discount buying in large numbers, but it usually isn't a huge difference from the small operation, depending on how greedy everyone is.

That's my :2cents:

Sean

 

[LD1]

I think where we have gone astray is on the model number thing.

An earlier post eluded to grinders from dewalt ranging from 4 amp to 15 amp and everything inbetween. And obviously there is a price difference.

But the point is, that the CHEAPER 4a Dewalt will CERTAINLY have a different model # than the 10 or 11a model. So you are NOT comparing apples to apples.

Model numbers can be CLOSE, like others have mentioned with having an extra letter or number at the end of the model.

I dont think ANYONE is arguing that if the model numbers are different, than the tools are different and one might very likely be a cheaper version even if it looks the same.

What I have NOT seen and find VERY hard to believe that anyone can get away with is....IF the model number is IDENTICAL, then they use cheaper parts in some

Its just one of those things that I havent seen, and would "have to see to believe". IE: to of whatever with IDENTICAL model numbers setting side by side torn appart.

 

[wedge40]

I've read most of these, and I find it hard to believe that ANY company would produce a tool and mark it with the same model number, but put different guts inside. Technically easy to do, but this has law-suit written all over it. Where's Jerry Gallo when you need him?

Wedge

 

[k0ua]

I think where we have gone astray is on the model number thing.

An earlier post eluded to grinders from dewalt ranging from 4 amp to 15 amp and everything inbetween. And obviously there is a price difference.

But the point is, that the CHEAPER 4a Dewalt will CERTAINLY have a different model # than the 10 or 11a model. So you are NOT comparing apples to apples.

Model numbers can be CLOSE, like others have mentioned with having an extra letter or number at the end of the model.

I dont think ANYONE is arguing that if the model numbers are different, than the tools are different and one might very likely be a cheaper version even if it looks the same.

What I have NOT seen and find VERY hard to believe that anyone can get away with is....IF the model number is IDENTICAL, then they use cheaper parts in some

Its just one of those things that I havent seen, and would "have to see to believe". IE: to of whatever with IDENTICAL model numbers setting side by side torn appart.

LD1, yes my thoughts exactly. However some have put forth good arguments that this may be happening. When some of the professionals on here state for a fact they have torn apart the items and they are different, I have to take notice. I am certainly not a plumbing professional (yes the thread went off into plumbing and I believe it started with tools!) so I feel the need to listen to those that are. BUT I would still like someone to take the time and money to get two identical model number Kohler faucets, one from a plumbing supply, and one from Home Depot, and two Dewalt drills one from a local industrial supply, and one from Home Depot, making sure the model numbers were exactly the same, and tear them down and with photo's please show us the differences. I just don't know, and gut feelings and logic are not going to prove anything at this point when we have so many good people on each side of this issue. What say, someone?

James K0UA

 

[LD1]

making sure the model numbers were exactly the same, and tear them down and with photo's please show us the differences.

exactally. That is the only way I will be a believer. No offense to the pros in the various trades, but I have to see to believe.

In my limited experience, I just have not seen it. The cheaper and inferior version, allthough looking identical and even having the same model "name", were ALWAYS a different PN if the internals were different.

I am not saying its not possible, again no offense, I just have to see to believe.

 

[aczlan]

exactally. That is the only way I will be a believer. No offense to the pros in the various trades, but I have to see to believe.
In my limited experience, I just have not seen it. The cheaper and inferior version, allthough looking identical and even having the same model "name", were ALWAYS a different PN if the internals were different.
I am not saying its not possible, again no offense, I just have to see to believe.

I agree for items manufactured in the same timeframe (ie: excluding items that have been sitting on the shelf for 2-3 years at the local HW store vs 2 week/month old ones at the big box store).

Aaron Z

 

[Soundguy]

Grinders are the same. I used to think that length of warranty was a good indicator, but it really isn't. If you were making industrial use angle grinders that were going to be used for 4 or more hours a day, how long would you warrant them for? A year is typical in the industry. If they warrant it for life, you're paying for at least three of them right up front.

I kow some companies give a different warranty period, onth same item, whether it is home or work use.

campbel hausfeld air comps are that way.

as for the angle grinders .. 4 hrs lifetime?

really?

I love them things.. tehy are like swiss army knives. every time HF puts them on sale for 10$ i buy one. i think I still have 2 un opened ont he shelf and about 3 in use.

I use the heck out of them. including the extra brushes..

I've got some going on 17+ys old.. frankensteined up from parts from several units.. repalced cords and switches and stuff.

On a typical tractor restoration.. I figure I have 16 hours of grinder use I know I can go thru a stack of grind and cutoff discs and a wire wheel or two..

I factor inthe price of a cheap 10$ grinder as a throw away on each job like that.


i'm probably not in the average user category though..

 

[mikehaugen]

LD1, yes my thoughts exactly. However some have put forth good arguments that this may be happening. When some of the professionals on here state for a fact they have torn apart the items and they are different, I have to take notice. I am certainly not a plumbing professional (yes the thread went off into plumbing and I believe it started with tools!) so I feel the need to listen to those that are. BUT I would still like someone to take the time and money to get two identical model number Kohler faucets, one from a plumbing supply, and one from Home Depot, and two Dewalt drills one from a local industrial supply, and one from Home Depot, making sure the model numbers were exactly the same, and tear them down and with photo's please show us the differences. I just don't know, and gut feelings and logic are not going to prove anything at this point when we have so many good people on each side of this issue. What say, someone?

James K0UA

alright, lets all pool some money together and nominate a member to do just this. I have paypal and will put up some money to satisfy my curiosity. I say we go for home depot, and maybe grainger or fastenal.