Big box stores: Inferior tools?

[murphy1244]

I don't have any on hand, but I do have a story that should help. My brother-in-law bought a Kohler bathroom faucet at a local supply shop. Before he got a chance to install it, he saw the exact same faucet at Home Depot for a cheaper price, so he bought it, with the intension of bringing the first one back to the supply house.

When he installed the HD faucet, he tightened the mounting bolts way too tight. When he stood up to look at it, it was all caved in. I don't know how else to explain it. Anyway it was ruined. He replaced it with the one from the plumbing supply shop, and it was fine.

Being a cheap guy, he figured he would return it to the plumbing supply shop, and get the higher price back. When he tried returning it, the salesman looked at the model number and said sorry, this was purchased at HD. He said trust me, you couldn't do this kind of damage to their faucet, unless you were using an impact gun. An exaggeration, sure, but he knew right away it wasn't his faucet.

True story.

He's more than a cheap guy.

 

[Pops15]

Yes thats true. The point being made here, is that HD and other BB store items DO NOT have the same model number. They are the same, plus an additional couple of letters or numbers, so it can be identified as the cheaper model.

I don't have any currently. 20-some years ago my Dad was shopping for a new TV. He saw a Magnavox he was interested in, in a box store advertisement. He went and looked at it and noted the model number. He then went to a mom & pop store where he had done a lot of business with. He asked for a price on the same model of Magnavox TV. The price was considerably higher. He told the salesman he'd rather buy from him but the box store was something like 30% cheaper. The salesman said let me show you something and turned the display model so they could read the serial number. He made some notes about the serial number and what each digit denoted and told Dad the box store TV was built using lesser quality components and could be identified by having more digits in the serial number. He went on to explain what those extra digits would be. So Dad went back to the box store an sure enough it was just like he had been told. He bought the one from the mom & pop shop. It lasted over 21 years.

 

[smilingreen]

If it has the same part number then it's the same no matter where it was sold. It would be impossible for any company to try and deal with servicing and repair parts if one model number had different parts in it.

I was a field service repair engineer for years. I worked on many different types of equipment. Manufacturers will and do build a product with identical model numbers, but put different parts on or in them for different customers. When you go to order parts for these machines, you have to specify the serial number, not just the model number. The computerized database is how they determine what piece of equipment was built with what parts, even though the model number is the same. There can even be a wide variance of a part with the same part number, depending on what customer they built it for. It really is not difficult at all for a company to deal with the same model number with different parts in it. It happens every day all around the world.

Case in point, I own a John Deere 790 MFWD. It is the 30 HP version as I bought mine back in 2001. About 2004 or so, they changed the engine in it to a 27 HP Diesel. They also made a 2 wheel drive version of the 790 for both the 30 HP and the 27 HP. All of these tractors had the same model number. When I go to get a part for it, you can bet I have to give my parts guy the serial number of the tractor so he can order the correct part. If I send my wife to the dealership and she just tells the parts guy I have a JD 790 and I need a new front left wheel bearing for it and a rear main seal for the engine and she doesn't have the serial number to differentiate which version I have, she will be coming home empty handed with no order placed and I will be unhappy.

I worked on JLG man lifts. Home Depot tool rental would purchase a large number of lifts every year to go to their rental stores. These lifts were built basically the same as any other T350 lift, except Home Depot specified to JLG that they wanted certain modified parts put on these lifts. In looking through the parts catalog, if you didn't specify the serial number along with the model number and just ordered the general part from the catalog, you wouldn't get the correct part. JLG manufactured T350 lifts according to ANSI specs and they also manufactured the same T350 lift that went to nations all over the world. They all had the same model number, but the parts were different depending on where these lifts would go to.

What about automobiles? Same model, but if you buy it in California, it will have California emissions on it. Better tell the parts guy at the parts house your VIN number so he can get you the correct part for the engine.

I say all of this to let you know the key to what version of any equipment you have or what parts are in it is "the serial number".

 

[marimus]

He's more than a cheap guy.

You got that right

 

[Soundguy]

i know on tires you sometimes get tires sold at large discounters that you can't find that exact model of tire elsewhere at regualr tire dealers. for instance.. you could get a specific uniroyal at walmart.. but not anywhere else.

and it was likely a price point tire.. etc.

on tools... with some limited exceptions.. I'd bet most roll out side by side at the same offshore plants. kobalt.. craftsman.. chicago.. etc.. etc...

soundguy

Well if it is true then it is more than just tools.....I had a plumber tell me the plumbing fixtures ..faucets, toilets etc. at the big box stores with the brand names were a cheaper and inferior version than the same brand names at the plumbing supply houses...I did not believe him and when we built our house 8 yrs. ago we bought all Price Phister brand fixtures from Home Depot at about a third of the cost from a plumbing supply house and we have not had one problem in those 8 yrs....I find it hard to believe big companies would compromise their brands that way.

Same thing I have read on threads here that if you buy a JD lawn tractor from a big box store it is inferior to the same JD tractor you might buy at the JD dealer....I would have to see proof JD would do such a thing....

 

[Soundguy]

As a mechanic, that works with tools every day, personally I prefer American Craftsman tools, .

you must mean old ones.

last sears wrench I bought clearly indicated COO heche en el chine

 

[Carl Bert]

you must mean old ones.

last sears wrench I bought clearly indicated COO heche en el chine

Yeah, he definitely must mean the old ones

 

[k0ua]

I was a field service repair engineer for years. I worked on many different types of equipment. Manufacturers will and do build a product with identical model numbers, but put different parts on or in them for different customers. When you go to order parts for these machines, you have to specify the serial number, not just the model number. The computerized database is how they determine what piece of equipment was built with what parts, even though the model number is the same. There can even be a wide variance of a part with the same part number, depending on what customer they built it for. It really is not difficult at all for a company to deal with the same model number with different parts in it. It happens every day all around the world.

Case in point, I own a John Deere 790 MFWD. It is the 30 HP version as I bought mine back in 2001. About 2004 or so, they changed the engine in it to a 27 HP Diesel. They also made a 2 wheel drive version of the 790 for both the 30 HP and the 27 HP. All of these tractors had the same model number. When I go to get a part for it, you can bet I have to give my parts guy the serial number of the tractor so he can order the correct part. If I send my wife to the dealership and she just tells the parts guy I have a JD 790 and I need a new front left wheel bearing for it and a rear main seal for the engine and she doesn't have the serial number to differentiate which version I have, she will be coming home empty handed with no order placed and I will be unhappy.

I worked on JLG man lifts. Home Depot tool rental would purchase a large number of lifts every year to go to their rental stores. These lifts were built basically the same as any other T350 lift, except Home Depot specified to JLG that they wanted certain modified parts put on these lifts. In looking through the parts catalog, if you didn't specify the serial number along with the model number and just ordered the general part from the catalog, you wouldn't get the correct part. JLG manufactured T350 lifts according to ANSI specs and they also manufactured the same T350 lift that went to nations all over the world. They all had the same model number, but the parts were different depending on where these lifts would go to.

What about automobiles? Same model, but if you buy it in California, it will have California emissions on it. Better tell the parts guy at the parts house your VIN number so he can get you the correct part for the engine.

I say all of this to let you know the key to what version of any equipment you have or what parts are in it is "the serial number".

Alright, you have about got me convinced. Maybe there is a difference in some things.. I dunno. but you make a convincing argument.

James K0UA

 

[studor]

If you are big enough you can have your own model number or serial number run on just about anything. Electronics used to be the prime example -- you could only buy some models at one chain and not find them at any others -- that way the consumer cannot find lower prices somewhere else or claim a non working unit was bought there under the money back guarantee. There are lots of reasons for retailers to have there own brands etc that have little to do with actual quality. If you believe that the "special buys" and "advertised specials" are always inferior quality because they come from a big box store that can only provide low quality, then you must also support the theory that anything you pay more for must be better quality -- JMHO

 

[EddieWalker]

Using the argument that a faucet is different from one source then another doesn't have anything to do with tools. I've bought them from the sources mentioned and spoken to the people that work there. The same model tool, is the same tool no matter where you get it with the better quality tools. I also doubt that Ryobi or the other low end brands have better and lesser versions.

Also saying that a brand that made a great tool twenty years ago has anything to do with what they make today isn't based on reality. Brand loyalty is a wonderful thing, but with the way things are done, what was once a great brand just can't be said for what is sold today. Stanley, Black and Decker and Porter Cable are all brands that at one time where very good. Now they are pure junk.

I like Makita and Bosch, but I'm not married to either. I'm liking what Hitachi is doing, but they are still making some junky stuff and some stuff that seems really good.

Reading this has really opened my eyes to how urban legends and wives tales get started.

Eddie

 

[Pops15]

The same model tool, is the same tool no matter where you get it with the better quality tools. I also doubt that Ryobi or the other low end brands have better and lesser versions.
Eddie

I suspect that's true of SOME brands.
Smilingreen's post # 72 & 73 say it all.
I KNOW that many years ago (when they still made decent tools) B&D had cheaper components in some circular saws with the same model number.
PC was still making good tools 10 or 12 years ago. I'm not impressed with what's available now. The supply houses around here no longer sell PC. The only place left to buy PC are box stores. They've lowered their quality to the box store level. That speaks volumes.

 

[Carl Bert]

Using the argument that a faucet is different from one source then another doesn't have anything to do with tools. I've bought them from the sources mentioned and spoken to the people that work there. The same model tool, is the same tool no matter where you get it with the better quality tools. I also doubt that Ryobi or the other low end brands have better and lesser versions.

Also saying that a brand that made a great tool twenty years ago has anything to do with what they make today isn't based on reality. Brand loyalty is a wonderful thing, but with the way things are done, what was once a great brand just can't be said for what is sold today. Stanley, Black and Decker and Porter Cable are all brands that at one time where very good. Now they are pure junk.

I like Makita and Bosch, but I'm not married to either. I'm liking what Hitachi is doing, but they are still making some junky stuff and some stuff that seems really good.

Reading this has really opened my eyes to how urban legends and wives tales get started.

Eddie

So you're saying that plumbing fixtures may be made cheaper for the BB stores, but no way that tools are made any cheaper. You know this as a fact, because you spoke to the all knowing HD employees. Well if a HD employee said it, then it must be the truth.

Come on, if you don't believe what everyone is telling you, than how do you explain the different model numbers? I cannot go item for item to give you physical evidence, because I do not have them sitting in front of me, but you can guarantee if one company is doing it, (and Milwaukee definitely does) they all will have to follow suit, or they won't be selling any tools. Ryobi, as far as I know, only sells low quality tools and pretty much sell for the same price anywhere you go.

As I said before, because of the great return policy, most items cheap or not, really dont matter, but tools that have a limited return policy and other things that cost money to install, do matter.

Hey its just a good thing to keep in mind when shopping. Its not an urban legend or a wives tale. If you choose not to believe it, then so be it.

 

[k0ua]

Interesting about the "low quality" Ryobi tools.. I still have my 9.6 volt Ryobi cordless drill. It is over 25 years old and has had about 5 or 6 or more batteries thru the years, and It is still my "go to" drill and still works well. I bought it at Sears when they sold Ryobi. I have other drills. and they have not lasted as well as this old Ryobi. I also have an old Ryobi "sawzall" I bought from sears about 20 years ago and it is still going strong also. I have used it plenty, but not as much as that drill. I know Ryobi is considered a lower priced and lower performance tool line, and I am not arguing any different, but I am only stating my factual experience.

James K0UA

 

[EddieWalker]

So you're saying that plumbing fixtures may be made cheaper for the BB stores, but no way that tools are made any cheaper. You know this as a fact, because you spoke to the all knowing HD employees. Well if a HD employee said it, then it must be the truth.

Come on, if you don't believe what everyone is telling you, than how do you explain the different model numbers? I cannot go item for item to give you physical evidence, because I do not have them sitting in front of me, but you can guarantee if one company is doing it, (and Milwaukee definitely does) they all will have to follow suit, or they won't be selling any tools. Ryobi, as far as I know, only sells low quality tools and pretty much sell for the same price anywhere you go.

As I said before, because of the great return policy, most items cheap or not, really dont matter, but tools that have a limited return policy and other things that cost money to install, do matter.

Hey its just a good thing to keep in mind when shopping. Its not an urban legend or a wives tale. If you choose not to believe it, then so be it.

I'm not sure if you are intentionally mistating things to get your point across, or if you just want to use a misleading example to get your point across. As a General Contractor, I know the guys at the Plumbing Supply, Electrical Supply and building supply houses. I also buy from Home Depot and Lowes. While it's true that you can buy tools from the different supply houses, their brand selection is very limited. One only sells DeWalt, another only sells Milwakee and another has both and a few other brands. Contractors buy those tools when they are in need of something and they need it right away. The guys who work there will tell you that you can get the same thing cheaper at other places.

If you want to talk about faucets, thats fine. This thread is about tools. You will not get a different or better version of the same tool by going to the supply house to buy it. What you will do is pay more money, and have it right away.

Eddie

 

[Pops15]

I'm also a general contractor. My experience leads me to believe otherwise. Not all brands of tools, but some of them for sure. B&D is one that put different quality guts in their tools. That was 30 years when their better stuff was still worth buying. From what I've seen everything they have now is junk.
If a box store can spec faucets, toilets, storm doors, etc,etc, why wouldn't they spec tools as well?

 

[Carl Bert]

I'm not sure if you are intentionally mistating things to get your point across, or if you just want to use a misleading example to get your point across. As a General Contractor, I know the guys at the Plumbing Supply, Electrical Supply and building supply houses. I also buy from Home Depot and Lowes. While it's true that you can buy tools from the different supply houses, their brand selection is very limited. One only sells DeWalt, another only sells Milwakee and another has both and a few other brands. Contractors buy those tools when they are in need of something and they need it right away. The guys who work there will tell you that you can get the same thing cheaper at other places.

If you want to talk about faucets, thats fine. This thread is about tools. You will not get a different or better version of the same tool by going to the supply house to buy it. What you will do is pay more money, and have it right away.

Eddie

Not sure what I misstated, or how I was misleading, I just repeated what you said. I too am a contractor, and deal with supply houses, just as you do. If your salesmen are telling you that you can buy the same tool, for a cheaper price at HD, then they too do not know what they are talking about.

If you need proof, go buy a Milwaukee impact gun at HD, and then buy the same gun at an electrical supply. Try returning the HD gun to the electrical supply. If the salesman is somewhat aware enough to check the model number, he will tell you that it is a HD product and must be returned to HD. You can then say, well you said they were the exact same tools, so what's the difference. I bet he will not accept the return.

As I said before, if you don't believe what I and many more are telling you, thats fine, enjoy your HD tools. I won't bother you with any more examples of proof.

 

[Carl Bert]

Interesting about the "low quality" Ryobi tools.. I still have my 9.6 volt Ryobi cordless drill. It is over 25 years old and has had about 5 or 6 or more batteries thru the years, and It is still my "go to" drill and still works well. I bought it at Sears when they sold Ryobi. I have other drills. and they have not lasted as well as this old Ryobi. I also have an old Ryobi "sawzall" I bought from sears about 20 years ago and it is still going strong also. I have used it plenty, but not as much as that drill. I know Ryobi is considered a lower priced and lower performance tool line, and I am not arguing any different, but I am only stating my factual experience.

James K0UA

Ryobi tools made 25 years ago, may have been a quality tool. I don't know, I never bought them. I can say for sure, that the Ryobis sold today are very poor quality tools. Hey, you get what you pay for, right? Well Ryobi's don't cost much.

 

[Turbys_1700]

I think that in many cases tools that are sold at Harbor Freight, Tractor Supply, Lowes, Homes Depot, Northern Tool, ect...do come out of the same plants in China...
With that said, I think that in some cases those tools are the exact same tool...
And in some cases, those plants make better quality tools for those retailers...
A case in point...
Several years ago I purchased a set of 3 adjustable wrenches from Tractor Supply on sale...
They were excellent quality with extremely tight tolerances in the thumb adjustment for opening the jaws...
Those wrenches are typically priced higher than lower quality wrenches but they were still made in China...
At the time I could not find an equivalent at Northern Tool although I am sure that they have had them in the past...
The point I am making is that the Chinese, Indians, Taiwanese, whomever, can make good quality tools or cheap quality tools...
It comes down to the market and the quality that the retailer wants to market to...

 

[Soundguy]

Not sure what I misstated, or how I was misleading, ...........

lets look at the rest of this paragraph...

If you need proof, go buy a Milwaukee impact gun at HD, and then buy the same gun at an electrical supply. Try returning the HD gun to the electrical supply. If the salesman is somewhat aware enough to check the model number, he will tell you that it is a HD product and must be returned to HD. You can then say, well you said they were the exact same tools, so what's the difference. I bet he will not accept the return.
.

hmm.. 'go buy same gun'

hmmm.. 'check model number'

if the model # is different.. it's a different model. menaing it's a 'different gun.. thus your initial statement of 'go buy the same gun' is a logical falacy.

therin lies the issue.

soundguy

 

[Artisan]

In the past, I have seen w/ my own eyes, the exact same faucet
that I would buy at a supply house, I have seen it's quality and I have
seen the exact same part number at HD and it was cheapened TREMENDOUSLY.
For the record I am a plumbing contractor. So those whom claim this
truth to be false are flat out WRONG. What really threw me over the edge
is when they introduced the PLASTIC water supplys on the faucets THEN
the PLASTIC POS tailpiece/pop up assemblies.
Some of the "cheapening" is very hard to detect. Plastic Aerator screens
vs SS, plastic this and that. I found JUNK at HD and TRUST me that those
whom buy that stuff do so at your own peril.

Just two weeks ago a lady had me out for a kitchen faucet leak. The faucet
appeared to be quality, she said it was a Kohler. So I pull the hot handle
and I see it was installed wrong and it simply needed to be tightened
up. I tighten it to find the mechanism was really tight. I tell her I need to
pull the cartridge and replace it, being a Kohler, even though it was purchased
at HD I assumed it would be OK. NOT! What a royal PITA and POS this thing
was.

I ended up pulling the valve body from the sink disconnecting at the spout
underneath because I could not get the cartridge to unscrew out of the
valve body. So I bring the junk out to my truck, I lower the VISE and
put the valve body in it. Well, first an 8" crescent, then a 12, then a 14"
pipe wrench THEN AN EIGHTEEN! I kid you not, it took and 18" pipe
wrench to split that valve body DESTROYING it in the process. So
I call Kohler and guess what, IT IS NOT REPAIRABLE! LOL! they do
not sell but THE WHOLE SHOOTIN' MATCH as a replacement! You have
to buy the whole freaking valve body and of corse you need a hose
as well.

Now understand this home was imaculate, were not talking a calcium
and hard water encrusted valve body here. It looked new.

NEVER buy plumbing junk at box stores. Some fittings and pipe maybe,
but faucets and WATER HEATERS, (OMG, I have pulled those
junk piles in less than a year and half (BELIEVE IT) ) are things
you are gambling w/ BIG TIME.

Additionally I see PP standard 2 and 3 valve tub and shower valves
and the valve bodies are a pot metal brass. I do not know what they
have mixed in the smelter over there but it ain't real brass.

They average homeowner / handyman will NOT see what I have seen.

I started plumbin' when I 15 years old, I am union trained, I am now
54, I have seen decades of cheapening, it is destroying the quality
of life in the USA via all these HD generation homes being built and
remodeled. But you nah sayers just keep on bying that crap...keeps
me in business.

BELIEVE IT.