I built a 48x50 pole barn, and was wondering what type of drain to install to reroute water around the building? I cut into a slight slope to build the building, and some of the water flows down the hillside toward the barn. I installed gutters on both sides that helped tremendously, but there is still some that runs off the bank toward the barn. I'm wondering if a french drain, or install a few drains where the X's are in the picture, would be better.I plan on getting the barn/pad concreted, and if I run the pipe across and under the barn, I can tie that into a drain I'm wanting to put in the center of it also, and keep routing it on out in the same direction. I plan on having gravel on the outside of the barn on the side pictured, and sod the slope. I just wanted more opinions on what you all though the best drain type would be? Thanks!
Best Drainage System Outside Pole Barn
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terry.dinerman
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What a fine looking barn and a beautiful location!
If this was my barn I would change the contours of the ground around the barn.... create a grass-lined waterway to carry run-off around the structure, rather than try to trap / pool / pipe it away....
The cost of creating a GLW is in machine time, and has almost no maintenance, where any form of enclosed drainage requires parts (pipe and gravel), will accumulate silt, and therefore have a set life-span...if your GLW gets overgrown, it is wide open for maintenance...running the mower or dragging a box blade thru it will cure that problem....
This is, of course, my humble opinion and your mileage may vary...
BE SAFE OUT THERE...
Terry
If this was my barn I would change the contours of the ground around the barn.... create a grass-lined waterway to carry run-off around the structure, rather than try to trap / pool / pipe it away....
The cost of creating a GLW is in machine time, and has almost no maintenance, where any form of enclosed drainage requires parts (pipe and gravel), will accumulate silt, and therefore have a set life-span...if your GLW gets overgrown, it is wide open for maintenance...running the mower or dragging a box blade thru it will cure that problem....
This is, of course, my humble opinion and your mileage may vary...
BE SAFE OUT THERE...
Terry
rswyan
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What td said ... :thumbsup:
dave1949
Super Star Member
X2 on Terry's drainage swale. It looks like that high side needs to be cut down and widened some more. If it will hold grass with the runoff that's fine. If not, then a rocked bottom would be the next step although not nearly as easy to maintain with a mower.
French drains are meant to dry out a wet area, carry ground water away from foundations and the like. They don't do much at all for sudden runoff which is what you are trying for.
French drains are meant to dry out a wet area, carry ground water away from foundations and the like. They don't do much at all for sudden runoff which is what you are trying for.
lt190b
Gold Member
Grade Grade Grade. Your just not finished yet. The further you can get the water away the better. lt190b
Well it looks like I'll be doing some more grading! Thanks for everyones insights. I'll keep chipping away on the upper side. I wish I could use the dirt to raise the height of the entire pad, but I'm at my limit on the upper side for door height, so the grade on the upper end (pictured) is the highest I can go. I should be able to get the hill graded down low enough to create a natural waterway though. Thanks again!
terry.dinerman
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Happy to help a friend...new or old.
Be SAFE out there...
T
Be SAFE out there...
T
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
You need to remove more dirt!!!! You need for your soil to slope away from your building far enough that when water is flowing, it doesn't come close to it. Then you need the dirt on the other side of the slop to be angled enough to maintain it with a mower, or turn it into landscaping that you can maintain. A retaining wall would be my last option because of the expense involved.
Eddie
Eddie
I'll get to removing more dirt in the next day or two if it dries out enough. I've got about 30 more feet of slope I can play with until I start running into another shed, so I should have plenty of room to remove more dirt. I should be able to get a small waterway/trench deep enough to keep the water flowing, and have an upslope easy to mow. I can get sod relatively cheap around here so I may use what I'd use in drains/gravel and throw it to the sod.
MacLawn
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Wha' they said. I know, I've got to do the same thing! Dirt needs moving... changing the face of the earth, one shovel full at a time.
boggen
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looking at picture.. *looks plain ugly to me* for what you have to work with. ya need to build kinda of a mini basement wall for lower portion of shed/barn. and then bring in a bunch of dirt. perhaps i am wrong. single picture and short description doesn't give a full view of the of things.
but from what i can see, the area is high "were you are standing taking picture" and goes down hill "further away form you in picture". and it looks like fairly flat land on other side of shed, so if ya did put in french drain as you have it now "needing to dig down more to install it", you going to be running a 100 plus? extra pipe to find a low enough spot on a hill side to dump the water from the french drain.
if ya cut out more dirt to make it single large nice slope, with a little bit of a ditch... are you really going to get a good grass growing? looks like shed might block out most of the sun 1/2 of the day or more?
build your retaining wall directly into wall of your shed/barn. save some costs. and bring in a good amount of dirt back in. and install a french drain, that for most part empties out a couple feet from end of the barn, or ties into the gutters down spouts.
but from what i can see, the area is high "were you are standing taking picture" and goes down hill "further away form you in picture". and it looks like fairly flat land on other side of shed, so if ya did put in french drain as you have it now "needing to dig down more to install it", you going to be running a 100 plus? extra pipe to find a low enough spot on a hill side to dump the water from the french drain.
if ya cut out more dirt to make it single large nice slope, with a little bit of a ditch... are you really going to get a good grass growing? looks like shed might block out most of the sun 1/2 of the day or more?
build your retaining wall directly into wall of your shed/barn. save some costs. and bring in a good amount of dirt back in. and install a french drain, that for most part empties out a couple feet from end of the barn, or ties into the gutters down spouts.
Actually, it's probably not nearly as bad as my first photo suggests. Looking at the picture, there is actually a slight up slope toward where the trailer is sitting, then it drops off after that. I just found and attached an older photo (before gutters) looking the other direction that may give a better perspective. Behind me in the first photo I attached, there was an old road that is about 3-4 feet lower than the barn, and surrounding land that I could probably direct the runoff toward. Runoff will definitely flow in that direction, as I stated earlier it upslopes to toward the trailer pictured. All I think I'd have to do is remove the dirt that is on the corner of the building, pictured in the attached photo.
For orientation sake, the front of the building is the direction the first piture is looking, out toward the open land. I'm not concerned with doors on the upslope side pictured, as it's first purpose is an airplane hanger, and then tractors or whatever else kind of junk I'm sure we'll probably have in it! I'm enclosing it after I can get the runoff to where it needs to be, then plan on having a large hangar door (haven't decided on type yet, but 40') on the front, a tall rollup door on the back, and a rollup on the downslope side. I may put a walk-in door on the up side, but nothing is set in stone yet.
The guy that was looking at doing my concrete also threw out the idea that you had also, on building a small wall. He recommended to let him poor the concrete pad, then build a 2-3 ft block wall on the pad on this upslope side and seal it, but that was before any talk of any more dirt work.
These photos are before any dirt work was done, and before the first picture of this thread was posted. I sketched out the direction I think the runoff would be, but the picture doesn't really give the slope or depth of that old road justice, its considerably lower/deeper, and more sloped than the picture suggests.
For orientation sake, the front of the building is the direction the first piture is looking, out toward the open land. I'm not concerned with doors on the upslope side pictured, as it's first purpose is an airplane hanger, and then tractors or whatever else kind of junk I'm sure we'll probably have in it! I'm enclosing it after I can get the runoff to where it needs to be, then plan on having a large hangar door (haven't decided on type yet, but 40') on the front, a tall rollup door on the back, and a rollup on the downslope side. I may put a walk-in door on the up side, but nothing is set in stone yet.
The guy that was looking at doing my concrete also threw out the idea that you had also, on building a small wall. He recommended to let him poor the concrete pad, then build a 2-3 ft block wall on the pad on this upslope side and seal it, but that was before any talk of any more dirt work.
These photos are before any dirt work was done, and before the first picture of this thread was posted. I sketched out the direction I think the runoff would be, but the picture doesn't really give the slope or depth of that old road justice, its considerably lower/deeper, and more sloped than the picture suggests.
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kevin37b
Veteran Member
The only way to fix that is move dirt . Should have balanced the grade before ERECTION . Did I here Viagra again ?
boggen
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i am going to say go with your concrete worker. but i am having a hard time judging your extra pictures. i don't think adding more pictures or description would help me, help you any better. it seems like you have a good grasp of the situation. though it may help others. that are more in the know / knowledge on the subject (day job). vs me little experience.
if he is doing the work, then he should put in a "key" or notch rather, into the concrete pad, were the block wall will go, possibly even setting some rebar sticking up, and tied into the the floor. (kinda of a pain in rear to do and get everything perfectly spaced to line up inside concrete block holes but..) its either that or drilling holes and dropping a few pieces of rebar down into the floor. to tie wall and floor together.
8x8x16 block walls are fairly cheap, more so it is a DIY'er cheap way of making a wall. if paying someone to do it, see on prices for a poured concrete wall. and having a water proofer put into the mix before it gets poured. "no need to seal then" exception between floor and wall there are a variety of paint on / spray on water proofers, along with pond liners, to roofing liners (for flat roofs) that could be used, to tar to water proof wall on the outside. there should be no need to do anything on the inside of the wall.
the big issue is getting that notch put in. for concrete block or poured concrete wall. (helps keep the wall from sliding on you). and creates a longer path way that water would have to travel between wall and floor. creating a better water tight seal between floor and wall.
==============
EDIT
causing water to go onto driveway *shakes head NO* bad idea. ya you want to keep water from your shed/barn. but sending directly on the driveway, just creating another problem, of needing to fix the driveway from a muddy mess and not able to drive through it.
if he is doing the work, then he should put in a "key" or notch rather, into the concrete pad, were the block wall will go, possibly even setting some rebar sticking up, and tied into the the floor. (kinda of a pain in rear to do and get everything perfectly spaced to line up inside concrete block holes but..) its either that or drilling holes and dropping a few pieces of rebar down into the floor. to tie wall and floor together.
8x8x16 block walls are fairly cheap, more so it is a DIY'er cheap way of making a wall. if paying someone to do it, see on prices for a poured concrete wall. and having a water proofer put into the mix before it gets poured. "no need to seal then" exception between floor and wall there are a variety of paint on / spray on water proofers, along with pond liners, to roofing liners (for flat roofs) that could be used, to tar to water proof wall on the outside. there should be no need to do anything on the inside of the wall.
the big issue is getting that notch put in. for concrete block or poured concrete wall. (helps keep the wall from sliding on you). and creates a longer path way that water would have to travel between wall and floor. creating a better water tight seal between floor and wall.
==============
EDIT
causing water to go onto driveway *shakes head NO* bad idea. ya you want to keep water from your shed/barn. but sending directly on the driveway, just creating another problem, of needing to fix the driveway from a muddy mess and not able to drive through it.
I should've mentioned, it's not an operational road. It used to be, back when I guess the barn down below it was in it's heyday but now, its entirely well-established grass.
boggen
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*rubs chin* ground water... for me, i have to worry about "frost heave" ground can change from 0 to 3 inches easily in some areas on this farm. some larger sliding doors hang freely in summer by a 1" or more, and ground heaves (freezes in winter) and land locks the doors shut, with a paper thin sheet of ice.
i need to re-look it up, been a while, i want to say frost depth for me is 3.5 or 4 feet deep.
see attach picture
A = all water runs into the shed (no good)
B = little ditch maybe even a french drain, and some surface drains = water still getting under wall of shed
C = alright good, ground water that soaks in, is now starting to move away from the shed and no longer under it.
D = moving ground water even further away from shed possibly. i am showing a french drain up against the wall. to help drain area of water. ((fresh fill dirt going back in, it will take some time to settle / compact itself. and until then ground water going to move into the area.
=========
soils are different all over the place, some drain better than others.
percolation test = digging a hole, pour in say 5 gallon bucket of water, and timing things at a set amount of minutes and see how far it drains down, and how long it takes to fully drain out.... to be honest i don't know the numbers to tell ya good or bad. a backhoe or excavator = easy dug hole at x depth, or a PHD (3pt hitch post hole digger). good draining soil = excellent cheaper smaller septic fields. vs soil that takes a long time to drain = larger more expensive septic fields. is about all i know of it.
==========
while you may think you are dealing with a lot of "run off surface water" what does soak in as it runs down the hill. that soaked in water in the ground is going to also slowly soak it's way down towards your shed. how well it drains to lower depths of the ground, and removes it from the frost depth for your area.. *shrug* not a clue. your local companies would know much better, that work your area as a day job dealing with dirt / construction.
when frost heave hits your shed floor, it will hit it unevenly, causing it to crack in places. more so if you have not done correct compaction of the soil.
take pictures with a grain of salt, more of attempting to get concept across, more than anything. and in that further away you can divert water from shed the better. trying to collect and divert it right up against shed :/ gets ugly.
i need to re-look it up, been a while, i want to say frost depth for me is 3.5 or 4 feet deep.
see attach picture
A = all water runs into the shed (no good)
B = little ditch maybe even a french drain, and some surface drains = water still getting under wall of shed
C = alright good, ground water that soaks in, is now starting to move away from the shed and no longer under it.
D = moving ground water even further away from shed possibly. i am showing a french drain up against the wall. to help drain area of water. ((fresh fill dirt going back in, it will take some time to settle / compact itself. and until then ground water going to move into the area.
=========
soils are different all over the place, some drain better than others.
percolation test = digging a hole, pour in say 5 gallon bucket of water, and timing things at a set amount of minutes and see how far it drains down, and how long it takes to fully drain out.... to be honest i don't know the numbers to tell ya good or bad. a backhoe or excavator = easy dug hole at x depth, or a PHD (3pt hitch post hole digger). good draining soil = excellent cheaper smaller septic fields. vs soil that takes a long time to drain = larger more expensive septic fields. is about all i know of it.
==========
while you may think you are dealing with a lot of "run off surface water" what does soak in as it runs down the hill. that soaked in water in the ground is going to also slowly soak it's way down towards your shed. how well it drains to lower depths of the ground, and removes it from the frost depth for your area.. *shrug* not a clue. your local companies would know much better, that work your area as a day job dealing with dirt / construction.
when frost heave hits your shed floor, it will hit it unevenly, causing it to crack in places. more so if you have not done correct compaction of the soil.
take pictures with a grain of salt, more of attempting to get concept across, more than anything. and in that further away you can divert water from shed the better. trying to collect and divert it right up against shed :/ gets ugly.
