Attacking that power problem CT225

[tinman955]

well my dealer here in Pa has another call into his bobcat rep, so maybe sooner or later enough of these reps around the country will figure something out. Its been almost 9 months for me and still no answers.

bbse is on the right track with the tranny being the problem. They just dont transfer the power to the ground effectivly.

 

[CT230 Fan]

Lets say a hill that if it were dirt, you would have to have a 4wd truck to go up. I cannot climb my back hill in my 3/4 ton Dodge 2wd with positive traction. I have taken a pretty good running start at it but I spin out about 2/3rds the way up. So any road you can drive up in 2wd is not a good comparison.

???? If you can't drive a truck up that hill, I'm just thinking a tractor ain't gonna do it either. Your driving a tractor that weighs over 4000lbs w. a front end loader and a 3pt attachment, with 27 gross HP. A truck weights about 6500 lbs, and has 250+ HP.
I'm not doubting that you are having trouble with the HST, but what you are asking it to do seems unrealistic in this instance.

I have a CT230, we don't have those type of hills, but I'd say I have 25 degree plus hills which I can usually take in high range if I don't have a load or a heavy 3pt attachment, if I do, then I can take in Mid without any problem. I mow and brushog those hills in Mid range. The only time I find it necessary to work in Low is if I am digging in complacted dirt/clay. I have moved a load of loose lime using mid the whole time, and bladed snow in High. The only time I spin my tires is in mud, I believe the weight of these tractors give plenty of ground engagement, so you will go over relief before you spin the tires.

 

[DKXJ]

I have a CT230 and the one thing I will agree with regarding this thread is that you cant bog down the engine or stall it. That for me is different than my other tractor (Ford 1210). I can work that tractor right into a stall, high or low range.

I am only at 24 hours and my understanding is it takes about 100 hours before you will start to see the full power of the tractor, so until then, I cant really comment on whether there is an RV issue or not.

So far, I have done all my work (tilling, snow plowing, moving round bails) in medium gear without a problem. High gear is too fast for me to effectively work, so I haven't bothered. While tilling with a cultivator, I did get the tractor to stop in mid range. It didn't spin the tires or bog down the engine at all which tells me the relief valve on the HST was giving way. When I put it into Low, it was able to move, but the tires did spin a little.

Since the Kiotis owners have reported the same thing, I'm guessing the tractor is in fact working as intended. After about 100 hours I will expect more, but I will not be surprised if you can never stall the engine out with too much work.

 

[dfkrug]

I am also curious if the CT225/CT230/CT235 use the same RV in the HST. If they do, then the extra HP would be useless if the valve releases at the same level. I will be curious to know the answer to that one or if the Kioti CK 30 HST uses the same RV and what is it set at?

The only way to tell is for people to buy the service manual. I can only
report on specs in the 05 CK30 manual, which I own. I would love to hear
some reports of the hyd specs from the other M27 variants (CK35, CT230,
etc). Note that a gear ratio change between tractors of different hp
ratings would also make a difference. I doubt gear ratios are diff, however,
as I can compare gear part #s in my CK25/CK30 parts book and see no
differences.

To add another variable, AG tires have much better traction, vs. R4s, but
their diameter is greater, which increases the effective final gear ratio. So
R4s have less traction, but transmit greater forces IF they do not spin.

As for more hp making no difference, you are correct
when the RV opens. Where more hp WILL make a difference
is where you are doing work: you will be able do more work
in less time with more hp. You will run into speed limits sooner on a
lower hp unit when you are driving it at speed up a hill, or discing/plowing.
e.g. a CT235 may be able to get up my road at 6MPH, and a CT230
may only make 5MPH, all other factors being the same.

The CK25/30 is now about 6 years old. This issue has been discussed on
TBN before, and most of us find this limitation to be livable, if not ideal. As
I said before, I think this machine needs a higher RV setting. Both the
CK30 and CT230 perform the same, according to my tests. It would be
interesting if any Bobcat customers make any headway with customer
service on the RV issue. BOBCAT should try increasing the RV pressure
and testing the result.

 

[sparkyaber]

I have a CT230 and the one thing I will agree with regarding this thread is that you cant bog down the engine or stall it.

I can bog down a 60 hp skid loader and kill it. It just depends on what you are trying do do with it, and the situation involved.

I have to agree with the folks that say you may be asking a lot for a little tractor. I never bothered verify how steep a slope you are trying to climb, but if it takes 4wd in a pick up, it has to be really steep. 25-30 hp really isn't that much especially if you are running a HST.

We had an old JD 60 gasser back in the day, it was geared of course, had problems pulling heavy gravity boxes around in higher gears. I think it was about 27 hp....? Totally different animal, I know, just a comparison. But it also weighed probably twice as much.

 

[Skinnyman]

I have a CT235, and it seems to have plenty of power. I was working this past week in High Point, NC cleaning up after the tornadoes. I was easily climbing hills that I think would have been at least 25% grades with at least 250 lb. loads in the grapple rake with no problems in mid range. I had to keep the rpm's up around 2300. I have loaded rears and nothing on the tph.
Right now I have 58 hrs. on the machine.

 

[dex3361]

I have been following this post and I would have to agree there is a relief valve or bypass issue. I have Kubota L4400HST and I can spin the tires against a load. I can also stall the motor out in mid range or high range if the load is to great. It usually requires a rollback on the HST go pedal to lower the range and let the RPMs catch up. I only post this as a reference for you. I also have a BX1500 and it responds the same it either stalls out the motor or spins the wheels in low range and in High range it will stall the motor if the hill is to steep and you push down to much on the forward pedal. It must be upsetting to have these kind of issues on a new machine. Sorry for your issues.

 

[carpenter383]

IMO ANY tractor should be able to spin the tires in low gear under heavy loads (up against a tree) I have a DK40se gear (same as the ct440) and it will easily spin all 4 tires idling in low gear. I know this is a bigger than a ct225, but it's also heavier (about 6500 lbs with fel, fluid and a heavy box blade.)
I did notice a power increase after around 100hrs so your tractor may get better, but from what you describe I would be very dissapointed too.
Have you done your 50 hr service yet? Just wondering if the hst could have shavings in it, possibly causing your problem.
I know it's not recomended, but I bet they could tweak the releif valve if they really wanted to.

 

[tinman955]

Ihave a CT440 with same issues its just not the small tractors, it wont spin either.

 

[Gittyup]

Daedong has had problems with parts suppliers in the past: loaders, injector pumps, fuel filter housings, etc.. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the case here.

I would stay after BC on this one. In the meantime, I'd change the fluids/filters and see if that helps. Then I'd see what happens after the first 100 hours or so. I have a CK25 gear. A different tranny, I know. But, it too got a lot stronger after the first 100 hours and it was especially noticeable in high range (geared CKs only have 2 ranges). I have a pretty steep hill and it wouldn't climb it in high range first gear when I first got it (with a backhoe attachment). Now it does it climbs that same hill easily, even with a full bucket. I'm at 382 hours now and it seems to get stronger the more I use it.

The poster that said that only 1 out of 4 tested was strong has collected some interesting data. What did/does BC have to say about that?

For the Kioti's I only recall a few threads where users were reporting this problem. That's what leads me to believe that maybe Daedong got a bad batch of HSTs/RVs from their supplier. They may even know this and are trying to sweep it under the rug (like the loader fiasco) because the costs to do the right thing are too high. I hope this is not true. But, I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[tinman955]

I drove the different models that day and all I got was **** he's right I guess ill call BC again and see whats up??

So I am waiting to hear back from them,:confused2:


BTW I have done the 50hr service and just did the 100hr service completely again at my expense, no better and no more usuable power noticed. Ive one 4 seasons with this tractor and can say I deff have a problem. I can list lots of things ive done with this unit that the "Lack of power" has showed its ugly face time and time again.

So we will see, unpatiently waiting.

Also let me state I love the tractor and would be proud to continue to own it if they can fix the problem.

 

[bbse]

Thanks for the replies but some of you guys are not getting the point. To explain the truck analogy, I did not run out of HP, I ran out of traction. I was explaining the difference between a steep drive vs a hill. If I was running out of HP climbing that 18 degree hill then I would say I need a more powerful tractor. I don't run out of HP or traction with the CT225. I have the equivalent of a slipping clutch. When the relief valve pops I sit on the hill...with traction...with the engine running at full power...unable to get the power to the wheels. I am NOT stalling the engine. The engine is getting stronger. The road near my house has a long sloping climb. When I first got the 225 I tried it in high range and I could not make it up it. I can now. It is not steep enough to pop the relief valve. The road in front of my house is. On the way back home, on a paved road, when I hit that spot the relief valve pops and I have to go to mid range to get to my drive way.

So, I hope I have made myself a little clearer. It is not HP, it is power transmission to the wheels. I have been in contact with several other Bobcat owners that are experiencing the same issue. My belief is that Bobcat put a low pressure relief valve in these tractors intentionally to either 1. Protect themselves for the 3 year warranty against us negligent home owner types or 2. To protect some weakness they are aware of in the HST system. But a tractor that can't spin it's tires in low range is just not much of a tractor.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I have been following this post and I would have to agree there is a relief valve or bypass issue. I have Kubota L4400HST and I can spin the tires against a load. I can also stall the motor out in mid range or high range if the load is to great. It usually requires a rollback on the HST go pedal to lower the range and let the RPMs catch up. I only post this as a reference for you. [[ I also have a BX1500 and it responds the same it either stalls out the motor or spins the wheels in low range and in High range it will stall the motor if the hill is to steep and you push down to much on the forward pedal. ]] It must be upsetting to have these kind of issues on a new machine. Sorry for your issues.

Dex, pls verify. I have never been able to stall my BX1500 with the pedal in either range. And, as you know, my trans has failed at about 1400hrs.
larry

 

[lilranch2001]

My belief is that Bobcat put a low pressure relief valve in these tractors intentionally to either 1. Protect themselves for the 3 year warranty against us negligent home owner types or 2. To protect some weakness they are aware of in the HST system. But a tractor that can't spin it's tires in low range is just not much of a tractor.

bbse I think if either of these were true, all of us would be having issues.

I used my bb all night tonight in mid range and was pulling full boxes of heavy damp clay and only had to shift down into low range a couple of times when I got caught on roots, I feel my tractor is doing pretty well, it has a whole lot more get up n go than my old 8N did, but this does have 9 more HP then the 8N, but there is no HST power loss in the 8N

 

[bbse]

bbse I think if either of these were true, all of us would be having issues.

I used my bb all night tonight in mid range and was pulling full boxes of heavy damp clay and only had to shift down into low range a couple of times when I got caught on roots, I feel my tractor is doing pretty well, it has a whole lot more get up n go than my old 8N did, but this does have 9 more HP then the 8N, but there is no HST power loss in the 8N

I have pulled a 6ft box blade also with no issue in mid range. I do not consider that a fair test. If you have some solid ground like a good dry field, put your loader against a tree, put her in low, rev her up and see if you can spin the tires. Mine can't, my dealers can't, I am curious if you a 235 can.

 

[lilranch2001]

ok.... question.... why would I want to spin the tires?

I have used it digging out my bank, getting ready for the retaining wall, and I cant say as I have spun the tires, but I have stalled the motor 6-7 times pushing to hard. That was the first night I had it, and I think I have only stalled it once since, so maybe like they say, the motor is getting stronger as it is breaking in

 

[bbse]

ok.... question.... why would I want to spin the tires?

I have used it digging out my bank, getting ready for the retaining wall, and I cant say as I have spun the tires, but I have stalled the motor 6-7 times pushing to hard. That was the first night I had it, and I think I have only stalled it once since, so maybe like they say, the motor is getting stronger as it is breaking in

The question is, are the tires going to break traction or is the relief valve going to let go first? Think of the relief valve opening in the HST and dumping the pressure, that is supposed to be used to turn the wheels, back to the reservoir tank...it is like stabbing the clutch in on a gear tractor or at least slipping it badly. Now, you do understand that you don't want to stall the engine, you want to very slowly press the pedal, kinda like you are trying to get the tractor to creep forward, this is going to be your lowest gear. If you can't spin them hear, you are not going to spin them. I couldn't, the thing I want to know is if they put a stronger relief valve in the 35 HP model. Without a stronger RV your extra HP has a lot of limitations.

 

[carpenter383]

ok.... question.... why would I want to spin the tires?

I have used it digging out my bank, getting ready for the retaining wall, and I cant say as I have spun the tires, but I have stalled the motor 6-7 times pushing to hard. That was the first night I had it, and I think I have only stalled it once since, so maybe like they say, the motor is getting stronger as it is breaking in

It's not a case of wanting or needing to spin the tires. It's just that it should have the abillity to do so if the load is too great for the tractor to pull or push.
Yes wieght helps anything gain traction, but any tractor should have more than enough power to spin the wheels under it's own weight. Especially when not even running a pto.
I'd bet if someone took a b3030 and added the 1,000 lbs or whatever it needed to weigh the same as a ct230, the b3030 would still spin the tires in low if it was chained to a tree

 

[dex3361]

Dex, pls verify. I have never been able to stall my BX1500 with the pedal in either range. And, as you know, my trans has failed at about 1400hrs.
larry

High Range I can stall it going forward up a steep enough hill but not in reverse(reverse bypasses through the relief valve).
Low range it will spin the tires or stall the engine.

 

[Loren49]

Hi all,
One of the advantages of a gear tractor - you always can find a gear to spin the tires or stall the tractor. So far with mine (about 120 hrs) power has slowed down my progress less than 5% of the time. (I was using the rototiller those times but was still able to make good progress and was probably causing less wear on the tiller) Traction is the issue limiting issue, not power.
I'm not trying to make a living with my tractor so in general I have more time than money. Bigger is not always better IMHO. I know this doesn't help with the question at hand but it may give some insight to someone trying to decide what tractor to buy.

Loren