another wiring question

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Jerry,

Thanks so much for the reply. I should have been a bit more clear. This wiring is in a barn. There's no water meter and no plumbing of any kind. Believe it or not, when this was served from the now-gone house the ground rod from the panel in the barn was INSIDE!

If I understand you correctly, I'm going to be driving an eight foot long rod into the ground. Is that right? If my locality wants it in the breaker panel can I just come out of the panel with the bare wire and go through the siding to the outside? It's a pole building with metal siding.

 

[MossRoad]

Our inspector made us put in 2 ground rods near the service disconnect and had us use one continuous piece of #4 solid copper from the bus inside the disconnect box through the clamp on the first rod to the second clamp on the second rod. He specified that it had to be one piece. Also made us put in a third ground rod near the sub panel in the garage.

Just for fun, I attached a diagram of our home wiring. Sometimes its fun to look at other peoples setups. I also like to hear from others how ours is different from theirs /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

David,

Thanks for the reply and the diagram. I think I'm going to be required to have the #4 copper from my breaker panel through the wall to two separate 8' ground rods as you describe. With no plumbing I'm guessing that'll be about it. I'm hoping to catch the electrical inspector in his office first thing in the AM to confirm that and get any other requirements regarding distances from the structure, etc. I'll post what I find out from them tomorrow if I catch him in the morning.

 

[Inspector507]

MossRoad,
The only thing I see in your diagram that I consider "wrong" is, the wire to the water lines should have come from the outside disconnect instead of the panel. Since the disconnect is installed, all bonding and grounding should be done there according to the NEC. But different parts of the country do things differently.

 

[MossRoad]

I agree with you. But I had to do it the way they said /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. Another thing. All of our plumbing is plastic except for a little bit near the water heater. It still had to be bonded just in case.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

OK, here's what I found out from our local inspector during a phone call this morning. I need to run #4 copper wire from the ground in the panel to two ground rods which must be 6' apart. I was surprised to find I could place these inside if I choose (I don't). There's no minimum or maximum distance from the box or the building required. It must be a single continuous run (as opposed to a run from the box to the first rod and a separate piece between the rods). The rods must be 8' and driven flush to the ground and the wire must be attached with "acorn style" connectors. The one bit of good news is that driving the rods into the ground ought to be a little easier this morning after the SIX INCHES OF RAIN we got here last night!

 

[Inspector507]

Fence post driver works real good for that if you have one.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color=blue>"Fence post driver works real good for that if you have one."</font color=blue>

I do NOW. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif After trying to do it with just a sledge hammer yesterday I went out & bought one last night. /w3tcompact/icons/clever.gif

 

[Carl_NH]

Gary,

I used to drive the 8' rods as well straight into the ground hitting rocks bending the rod etc. until one day I saw a guy driving it sideways/horizontal then bending the last few inches up then attaching the ground cable. Makes for a lot easier task and suffices the code per the inspector here in NH.

We have the similaer setup to MossRoad with two ground rods and one wire from the panel.

Carl

 

[MossRoad]

We used and air hammer with a custom snubby tip and a step ladder to get it started. BUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRPP and it was in /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color=blue>"Makes for a lot easier task and suffices the code per the inspector here in NH."</font color=blue>

I'm not sure what code here says about that. I know I just assumed they meant '"vertically" into the ground' but I sure never asked. I'd sure want to defer to the inspector on something like that.

 

[Inspector507]

I think (without looking) you can drive it in at a 45 degree angle. You need to have it in permanently damp soil for it to do it's job well. If you hit rock, you are allowed to put it in a trench.......2.5' deep.

 

[Bird]

I learned to put those 8' ground rods in the ground from one of the employees of our electric co-op. Instead of trying to drive it in the ground, just put a half cup of water where you want it, jam it in by hand, then start working it up and down (or in an out). When it doesn't go any further, pull it out, pour in another half cup or so of water and work it in and out again. That works just fine in this clay with no rocks. When you get about 6' of it in the ground that way, you can finish driving it in with a hammer.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

I may be too far gone to give that a try, Bird. I was trying to drive them in on the morning after a 6" drencher here so I thought the ground would be wet enough. I got them each in about halfway before I waived the white flag and went and bought a fence post driver.

That idea makes a lot of sense, though. I'm just afraid at this juncture it'd be as much work to get either of them back out as that method would save over using the post driver to finish them off.

 

[Inspector507]

Gary,
Just try not to mushroom the heads of them with a sledge hammer. You have to cut the musroomed part off to get the clamp on. If the inspector sees that, he may make you put a new one in. He doesn't know how much was cut off. Danged Inspectors. We had a fellow cutting them in half and using each peice at a new house. Saved him all of 3 bucks a house til he got caught.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

I think I'll put the acorn connectors on first thing tomorrow morning and securely tighten and tape them near the top. That way if I mushroom the heads it's no big deal. Thanks for the tip. /w3tcompact/icons/clever.gif

 

[bgott]

Around here the electricians all tell you to just go four feet. They say that it's o.k. in our wet ground. They get quiet when I ask about our occational month or two drought, though. I go the full eight feet because I'm afraid of losing the crappy neutrals they have around here. If you mushroom the end of the rod just cut it off when it's a foot off the ground, put your acorn clamp on it and then re- mushroom it pounding it the rest of the way in.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

If the electrician I hired doesn't die from his alleged current malady I may do the deed myself. I finished up all the work I'd contracted for him to do. The ONLY thing he did I didn't have to redo was mount the riser from the meter base. The toughest part by far was putting in those damned 5/8" copper ground rods.

I literally tried every suggestion here from the water in the hole to the fence post driver to little or no result. I finally waived the white flag and got out the backhoe. I dug a trench about 6' deep and 7' long in this hard clay THEN started driving the rods. When I got them set about a foot I backfilled to with 6" of grade then used the sledge hammer. It was probably overkill ,but I was tired of fighting it and I'm sure this was faster.

On the subject of the wayward electrician who now won't even return a call I have a question. I paid this guy $250 of his quote up front (yes, I know better). He did provide the 200 Amp panel, meter box, 15' of galvanzed riser and maybe 10' of PVC and an elbow. The hole he cut in my siding looked like it was done with a hammer and chisel. I bought all the rest of the material and did all of the labor including remounting both of the boxes and all the PVC (it didn't line up with the hole he made).

Is it worth going after this guy in small claims? I don't think he ever got the appropriate permit, either. Wouldn't he, as a licensed electrician, be required to do that before he does ANY part of the work? Do I have any recourse there? Am I better off just eating this and looking at it as $250 spent for the two boxes, the pipe and the impetus to do it myself?

 

[Inspector507]

Gary,
Yes the electrician SHOULD have gotten the permits before starting the work, but the simple fact is they usually get it the day before they need an inspection.
As far as small claims court, figure out the cost of the material he did supply, and see whats left. Probably not worth the hassle for just the few bucks that would be left over, IMO.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Thanks for the reply, Jerry. That about sums up what I thought but I wanted your opinion on it. I figure he spent maybe $75 tops on materials that were there and did mount the galvanized riser in a useable manner. That leaves me down $175-$200 less his labor for the riser installation.

If it was half that, I'd just eat it. If it was much more, I know I'd go after him. At this point, I don't know which way I'll go.