Tractor Sizing Advice on tractor selection?

/ Advice on tractor selection? #1  

rustythread

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2011
Messages
32
Location
southern colony of the People's Democratic Republi
Tractor
Simplicity 6512.5; Kubota L35
Good mornin'!
Relative newbie here, with a lot of ignorance. Could use some advise re selection of a mid-sized TLB; here's the situation:

I'm about to retire from my day (office) job and start preparing to build house and barn, etc, out in the woods. I have 120 acres of hills and trees, and will have to start clearing building site as soon as I get equipment. Trees are mostly hardwood, predominantly white oaks, and up to 60+ feet tall; it's been 20 years since the last harvest. Once the construction clearing is done, I'll have as much work as I can handle clearing up blow-downs, doing TSI, and occasionally harvesting. I'm contemplating pushing over the trees in the potential building area, since the stumps will have to come out anyway. Logs will be either worked up on site for lumber or sold at roadside, depending on market and current needs

Last tractor I had a close relationship with about 20 years ago was a 1940s widefront Super M with a front loader, so my practical experience is out of date.

I'll be wanting 4WD w/ QD front loader, QD backhoe, and a good QD timber winch to swap places with the backhoe.
I'm thinking around 40-50 HP. Dealers within 50 miles include Kubota, Deere, and MF.

Here's where ignorance and checkbook collide. By the time I price new, I seem to be over budget, with just the things I think I "know" I want.
Lots of questions about other stuff that adds up, tho.

I keep seeing references to optional additional hydraulics at mid and rear--how many hydraulic circuits do my proposed uses seem to call for, either as a new purchase or as a minimum in looking at used units?

Do I appear to be in the ballpark re necessary HP, or should I look at 30-40 HP range equipment as well?

If I'm looking at used equipment, say a tractor with loader but no backhoe, what do I need to either look for or plan to have added re rear hydraulics to operate backhoe?

For this type of work am I better off with R-4 tires or regular ag tires?

I will be lifting and stacking / moving logs frequently--should I look for a bucket to which prongs can be bolted, or look for a log loading replacement for the bucket?

What am I still to ignorant about to even know to ask?

Thanks, all.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #2  
You seem to be in the same stuation as MossFlowerWoods. Look him up and read his threads, it will help you immensely
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #3  
I'd hire a big machine to come in for the initial clearing. Other than that a 30-50 HP 4wd drive tractor will serve ya well.

I'm on a large place here, logging, firewood, TSI, road work and mowing with two smaller Kubotas and have no complaints at all...
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #4  
Keep in mind that I am only three months or so ahead of you, but that being said, I have done a lot of reading here, and am good at remembering what other people have said. So maybe I can save you some searching. And if I say anything wrong, hopefully a more experienced member will correct me and we will both learn something.

Good mornin'!
I have 120 acres of hills and trees, and will have to start clearing building site as soon as I get equipment.

General consensus on TBN seems to be that, unless you just LOVE clearing land, hire someone with a bulldozer, or rent a bulldozer if you know how to operate one, for the initial clearing. What will take you weeks or months to chip away at with a tractor can be done in a day or an afternoon by a bulldozer.

Here's where ignorance and checkbook collide. By the time I price new, I seem to be over budget, with just the things I think I "know" I want.

Now that I am familiar with my tractor, and know what kind of questions to ask on TBN, I would be more confident buying used. If you have the cash or can access good financing, don't rule out used gear. Tractors and implements are very durable, and used stuff can still have a lot of life left in it as long as it hasn't been abused and damaged. That being said, I bought new because I wanted to be sure I wasn't getting a lemon, I wanted a warranty, and (most importantly) I didn't have the cash on hand. Zero percent financing is a heck of a motivator. Also, I really like being the first one to put a scratch or a ding in my equipment sometimes, and that was the case now. The next tractor I buy, if/when I buy one, I will seriously consider used, because I can see now that I could have gotten a LOT more value for my money that way. Live and learn...

I keep seeing references to optional additional hydraulics at mid and rear--how many hydraulic circuits do my proposed uses seem to call for, either as a new purchase or as a minimum in looking at used units?

Presumably, if you buy a TLB, it will have whatever hydraulics are necessary to run the backhoe. I believe that they typically run off the power beyond port, which is basically a single port that sends hydraulic fluid to an implement that will have its own valves and controls. When people talk about rear remotes, they are talking about ports on the back of the tractor that are controlled by levers on the tractor. The distinction between the two, as near as I can tell, is somewhat superficial. A power beyond port doesn't usually have any control on the tractor to turn it on or off. Remotes do. But remotes can (if the valve supports it) be put into "float" mode, which means hydraulic fluid flows through them continuously--in other words, they can act just like a power beyond port. If you had something like a hydraulic log splitter, which would have its own valve and lever to control the splitting wedge, I think that it would expect a power beyond-type port, or a remote that had a float position. For perspective, the standard set of rear remotes on my tractor (which I don't have, but I've read up on it) has two remotes, one with float and one without

Getting back to your question, how many remotes do you need? I think it all depends on what you intend to do with your tractor. If you want to run a log splitter, a single remote with float mode (or power beyond) port would do. If you want to run hydraulic top and side links (top-n-tilt) then you need two remotes, probably one with float (the top link). If you want to run a box blade with hydraulic rippers, you need a single remote, but if you ALSO want to do top-n-tilt with it (a common setup), then you'd need a total of three remotes.

If I'm looking at used equipment, say a tractor with loader but no backhoe, what do I need to either look for or plan to have added re rear hydraulics to operate backhoe?

The answer to this question depends entirely on the tractor and backhoe that you intend to use, and I am honestly a little out of my depth here, but I think the most common setup is that the backhoe runs off of the power beyond port, or a remote operating in float mode.

When considering the backhoe, one thing to keep in mind is whether the backhoe is 3-point-hitch mounted or whether it has a separate sub-frame. I have no personal experience here, but people on TBN say that the 3ph mounted backhoes are a little less stable than the sub-frame mounted ones. Another consideration is whether you have to remove the 3ph lift arms to install the backhoe or not, which some people find onerous if they are going back and forth between the two. Basically, how quickly can you remove the backhoe and install a 3ph implement, or vice versa?

For this type of work am I better off with R-4 tires or regular ag tires?

There are ample threads on TBN about tire choice. The main reason, IMO, people go with R4 is because ag tires will 100% chew up your yard even in the best conditions. If that is a concern, go with R4. Another consideration is that R4 tires do much better on asphalt or similar surfaces because they don't have raised lugs on the contact patch. Smoother ride and less wear on the tires. Basically, if you aren't worried about your lawn (and you didn't mention a mower, so maybe this is the case) and you don't plan to drive on tarmac very much, ag tires may be okay for you. One thing that ag tires bring to the game is that the wheels they are mounted on usually have adjustable width, which means you can widen the tractor's stance for more stability, or narrow it for more maneuverability. This is not the case with R4 or turf tires.

Another way of thinking about it is that R4 are excellent general purpose tires, and will probably do you just fine unless you get into some really heavy pulling situations (deep mud, heavy plowing). Ag tires will give you that nth percent more pulling power, but with some down-sides.

I will be lifting and stacking / moving logs frequently--should I look for a bucket to which prongs can be bolted, or look for a log loading replacement for the bucket?

Most people that I see on here who put hooks on their bucket weld them on (or have them welded on). You can do that to any bucket, so don't worry about it. However, you should keep in mind that the lift capacity of many of these compact tractors is less than you might expect, and also it's easier than you might think to bend your bucket or lift arms by using the FEL as a crane. A center-mounted hook can bow in the roof of the bucket; a side-mounted hook can cause off-center force that bends the lift arms. Obviously, if you get a big enough tractor, it will do the work, but you should be sure before you go that route. I cut my own firewood for heat in the winter, and I know that a big log can easily get into the thousands of pounds range.

Bear in mind that lift capacity of these tractors is heavily influenced by ballast. Without rear ballast, you won't be able to safely lift higher weights, even though the tractor's hydraulics and frame can take it. The tractor will become front-heavy and won't be safe to operate. In extreme cases, you will just lift the rear wheels of the ground when you try to lift the object. So you absolutely 100% need to be thinking about ballast if you are going to be doing heavy loader work... or really any loader work. Loaded tires and/or a cement-filled ballast box are common choices. If you end up buying a heavy-duty box blade or a tiller or something, that can be used as rear ballast too.

Consider getting a grapple (and associated 3rd-function control and hydraulics) for your bucket, or even a dedicated grapple for your FEL if lifting/loading logs is in the picture. A bucket alone can't grab a log, right? If you will be moving brush piles, a grapple bucket is a common choice, but front forks are also reported to work well. Alternatively, a hydraulic thumb for the backhoe may be more your speed. It will give you more fine control than a front grapple, but of course you will have to switch back and forth from the front to the back set of controls to actually move the tractor from place to place.

And one more thing: BUY A BIGGER TRACTOR THAN YOU THINK YOU NEED. You will take an absolute bath trading up in a year. Today, you have some things that you think you want to do with the tractor. The more you own and operate the tractor, the more things you are going to find that you want to do with it. It will cost you an extra few thousand dollars today to get the next tractor up in the line. I know that hurts, but it's going to hurt even more a year from now when you lose two or three times that much trading up. There's a balance to strike here, of course. That money could be spent on implements that you will use today! So don't go crazy. But if you are on the fence between a smaller tractor and a bigger one, you should almost always get the bigger one. The only time I think I would hesitate on that advice is if maneuverability is an issue. If you need to get into a lot of tight places (e.g. mowing around trees and buildings), maybe a smaller tractor would be better.

I'll give you an example. I have about 3 acres of land. Honestly, I don't need a tractor much at all, but I wanted one to help make some work easier, to do some stuff by myself instead of hiring it out, and of course, for fun. So I started shopping the SCUT (sub-compact) range--Kubota BX, JD 1026, and so forth. But when I purchased, I ended up going to the CUT (compact) range--a CT225, the smallest CUT that Bobcat makes before they go to the SCUT range. When the dealer saw I was interested in the CT225, he tried to talk me up to a CT235 (same frame, bigger engine). I declined, but only because I had already gone one step up from what I thought was really appropriate. I have already gotten myself into some situations where I kind of wish I had a bigger bucket on my FEL--not that I bought the wrong tractor, mind you, because I like my payment where it is, but I'm glad I didn't get the tractor that was the "right size" for me, because I think it would quickly have turned out to be too small.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #5  
And one MORE thing: please, for goodness' sake, go to the Safety forum here and read, read, read. Read everything you can on tractor safety. These machines are designed to get work done. They are not dangerous when used properly, but they don't hold your hand either, and they will absolutely kill or maim you if you don't respect them.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #6  
Keep in mind that I am only three months or so ahead of you, but that being said, I have done a lot of reading here, and am good at remembering what other people have said. So maybe I can save you some searching. And if I say anything wrong, hopefully a more experienced member will correct me and we will both learn something.
Very good writeup. About the only thing I would add is that the R4 tires will withstand a lot more punishment than Ag tires(thicker sidewalls). OP doesn't list a location though, that could make a difference in tire choice. OP mentions hills..........but IL. hills are a tad bit different than Wv. hills.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #7  
rustythread said:
Good mornin'!
Relative newbie here, with a lot of ignorance. Could use some advise re selection of a mid-sized TLB; here's the situation:

I'm about to retire from my day (office) job and start preparing to build house and barn, etc, out in the woods. I have 120 acres of hills and trees, and will have to start clearing building site as soon as I get equipment.......

If I'm looking at used equipment, say a tractor with loader but no backhoe, what do I need to either look for or plan to have added re rear hydraulics to operate backhoe?

.......

Thanks, all.

I would second the suggestion to get dozer to do the primary site prep. Also if you don't have access to some areas of your 120 acres you could have paths cut particularly up any hills of concern. It's nice to know you have a landing for turn around on a hill.

take sometime to look for used equipment. I had the JD dealer refer me to an a fellow with a used tractor and only 40 hours plus most of the attachments I needed. Score! It might not pan out but it may be worth the look.

Lastly there are great threads here on safe operation. Having a tractor will create new situations were things might not go as expected. I've started sketching things out days or weeks in advance and looking over TBN for do/ don'ts

Best luck and wishes.

RoN
 
/ Advice on tractor selection?
  • Thread Starter
#8  
Appreciate all the advice and suggestions--keep 'em coming!

the land is in southern Illinois, about 100 miles north of Paducah, 100 miles east of St Louis. 3 40A pieces in an "L" shape, divided diagonally in half by an intermittent creek with a tin whistle in it. Creek bed area floods in Jan-Feb about 3-6' deep and 100 yards wide. Not a problem re the building site, which is on the side nearer to the township road, but could get interesting if I get into it logging before it has dried out for the summer. Lots of rattlesnakes, but not enough in any one place to tax the FEL.

I'm still at the pacing-things-off stage of site selection since the building site will be on the flat top of a long ridge, and I have a lot of choices about exact location

Had a spot cleared by hired bulldozer about 25 years ago; none of the downed trees were salvageable for anything other than firewood, and un-piling them to cut was a major PITA. Too many pretty good trees on the future building site to want to trash them, so I plan to do it a piece at a time, cutting and yarding the logs in the process, as I need to get them out of the way for more clearing. I know it'll be slower, but am hoping that I can get it done right. Woodmizer bandsaw mill on order, for delivery in Oct or November if I can get a machine shed up by then; will probably sell most logs at roadside, and start cutting my own lumber when I get the space around the sawmill set up.
Been going through some of the threads here, and will need to read 'em all before I'm done. I sure do appreciate all the expertise and experience here.
Among the things it looks like I'm going to have to do is learn how to weld and become a good friend with the junkyard owner. I suspect a logging arch or two is/are in my future.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #9  
Good reasons for not wanting a dozer in there.

We have 400 acres, about 300 in timber. My brother is logging here full time right now and using our old 1984 L3750 Kubota (45hp). I like my L3800 better because of the smaller size, I can snake logs through the woods easier, without too much trouble. The 3800 will get a really good work out this Fall when the temps cool off a bit, plan to take out some nice high dollar white oak and a bunch of firewood logs. Right now I'm mostly bush hoggin and road work with it. We also have a bandsaw mill that we built and saw some of the lumber we need, then sell the rest to the mills. Beats the **** out of working in an office! :D
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #10  
Joshua,
Excellent writeup! I would add though that you can still adjust the width of the R4 tires to get a wider/narrower stance.

Rusty,
I really like the sound of your project and I'm glad your looking to do most of it yourself! I'm in a similar situation with a lot less land. What model mill did you order? I have the LT15 with deisel but would love to throw down for the new LT35, just not in the cards right now.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection?
  • Thread Starter
#11  
Just found nearby Kubota dealer with a Kubota L3500 TLB listed at $20K. Maybe a bit small at 37 HP, but sounds like it would be workable if I contract out the clearing or am willin to take longer at it. Will try to get up there to look at it Monday or Tuesday. Woould greatly appreciate any suggestions on how to look and what specific items to look for/ ask about regarding condition, maintenance records, clues to defects or pending problems, etc.

Piston: mill is an LT28 with deck package, and about 60 hours on it.

TIA
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #12  
Joshua,
Excellent writeup! I would add though that you can still adjust the width of the R4 tires to get a wider/narrower stance.

You mean with spacers? I was referring to the ability to flip the rims inside out to set the stance. Or is there something else about R4's that I'm missing?

Another thing I forgot was that some backhoes are PTO driven, with their own hydraulic reservoir and motor. As a result, they can be used on any tractor with a 3ph, no rear remotes or power beyond port required. This may be a big deal to the OP. I have no information about comparing these to ones that run off the tractor's hydraulics.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #13  
The only addition I'd make to everything here is to make sure that the tractor will fit undercover. My JD 4320 goes beautifully in my 2-car garage if I drop the ROP. This gives me good flexibility for servicing the machine at home in a heated space and clearing snow in the winter. Maybe I missed this also, but buy Hydro and 4-wheel drive.
Adrian
 
/ Advice on tractor selection?
  • Thread Starter
#14  
With the backhoe on, and with-or-without a 4-post canopied ROP, I/m gonna have to figure ona bout a 12' high door to the machine shed when it's built. I'll figure on making the door about 10-12 feet wide as well, to make room for backing things in, etc.

Went and looked at the used L35, and thought about the marginal HP in relation to what I'm likely to have to pull and lift over the coming years harvesting treees and clearing blow-downs (hope there's a good overlap there!). The salesman is putting together a proposal on a new M59, altho I warned him I may be out of budget before he's out of options, and that I'm still looking around.
I had originally thought about just going with a tractor with a folding ROP, but thinking about dead limbs dropping makes me think seriously about at least slowing them down with a canopy

Re HP and weight--I noticed in the brochures and in lookoing at the "build-your-kubota" site that the MX5100 4WD with 8F/8R geared trans has HP of 52/50 gross / net, is bout $12K less that the M59 is likely to price out with what I want. The M59 is HST-only, which the salesman says will give anactual drop in HP of closer to 12-13 HP. HST does not particularly thrill me, and the wasted HP is a consideration.
I'm having trouble finding comparable weights. The M59 brochure says it weighs 8,344 with BH and FEL; the MX5100 brochure gives only the tractor weight of 3,620 but does not list the weights of either the BH92 or the LA844 loader. If the MX5100 comes out significantly lighter than the M59, what kind of a difference does it really make in performance, given the availability of filled tires or ballast of various types?
What are the odds that the salesman is trying to steer me to the M59 purely because of additional profits / commissions over the MX5100?
Anybody know of any advantages / disadvantages to the MX5100 vs the M59?
TIA
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #15  
Good mornin'!
Relative newbie here, with a lot of ignorance. Could use some advise re selection of a mid-sized TLB; here's the situation:

I'm about to retire from my day (office) job and start preparing to build house and barn, etc, out in the woods. I have 120 acres of hills and trees, and will have to start clearing building site as soon as I get equipment. Trees are mostly hardwood, predominantly white oaks, and up to 60+ feet tall; it's been 20 years since the last harvest. Once the construction clearing is done, I'll have as much work as I can handle clearing up blow-downs, doing TSI, and occasionally harvesting. I'm contemplating pushing over the trees in the potential building area, since the stumps will have to come out anyway. Logs will be either worked up on site for lumber or sold at roadside, depending on market and current needs

Last tractor I had a close relationship with about 20 years ago was a 1940s widefront Super M with a front loader, so my practical experience is out of date.

I'll be wanting 4WD w/ QD front loader, QD backhoe, and a good QD timber winch to swap places with the backhoe.
I'm thinking around 40-50 HP. Dealers within 50 miles include Kubota, Deere, and MF.

Here's where ignorance and checkbook collide. By the time I price new, I seem to be over budget, with just the things I think I "know" I want.
Lots of questions about other stuff that adds up, tho.

I keep seeing references to optional additional hydraulics at mid and rear--how many hydraulic circuits do my proposed uses seem to call for, either as a new purchase or as a minimum in looking at used units?

Do I appear to be in the ballpark re necessary HP, or should I look at 30-40 HP range equipment as well?

If I'm looking at used equipment, say a tractor with loader but no backhoe, what do I need to either look for or plan to have added re rear hydraulics to operate backhoe?

For this type of work am I better off with R-4 tires or regular ag tires?

I will be lifting and stacking / moving logs frequently--should I look for a bucket to which prongs can be bolted, or look for a log loading replacement for the bucket?

What am I still to ignorant about to even know to ask?

Thanks, all.



As we have mentioned previously,

YOU DO NOT KNOCK TREES OVER WITH A ROW CROP TRACTOR OR RUBBER TIRED BACKHOE NO MATTER THE SIZE!!!
(SImply because you have no way of controlling the direction of fall with out felling cuts or back cuts in the tree to be dropped AND you do not have thr tractive effort and weight to accomplish the job and the machines are not ment for this work!!!!!!!!!!!

Clearing building sites require shovel logging.

My brother wanted to do his job his way without paying attention to details,
simple physics, safe logging practices and he only made his job that much harder by not listening!!!
which is why I refused to work on this wood lot that he insisted be done HIS WAY.

Hire a dozer large enough to do all the clearing and ripping out of
the stumps and save yourself a lot of work and upset as you will
have lot of trees that will fall over once the dozer starts working.

With second growth timber it is more important to clear the lot to the point where the nearest trees left
will not fall within the closest edge of the proposed residence- Meaning estimating the thirty to fifty year post
growth height of the trees after clearing (the trees remaining will become more able to grow with the
increased sunlight and water) the lot will not fall and cause famage to the home.


Its better to have 100-150 feet of clearance around homes and buildings to reduce any possibility of tree damage from blow downs as the clearing will weaken the trees left on the perimiter.

Hardwoods are notorious for breaking even when cut properly to compensate for a leaner.


You can free up one tree and cause a huge chain raction when it becomes a leaner and they
do kill without hesitation from limbs slamming back and breaking.

Building in a wooded area is a double problem with windload and snow fall AND the ability or lack
there of to clear heavy snow falls around said building because they will block the wind and in the
process the snow fall will accumulate even more around said buildings.

I want you to succeed not fail.
 
Last edited:
/ Advice on tractor selection? #16  
For the Kubota TLB series they really cant be compared to the L or Grand L as they are integrated / dedicated TLB units that are heavier and have higher hyd GPM flow, and options that make them more $$.

The L35 is Glide Shift not hydro and they work well, but most using the TLB like the hydro. For your uses and acreage I think the L35 might be a bit small. The TLB's also have a full undercarriage, and a higher ground clearance with the integrated frame and when you are working in the woods this is invaluable.

I think the M59 series is a better choice and here is a very nice unit in Ohio at a decent price point $38K with 151 hrs probably about 450 miles from you. http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8556243&

The new Kubota pricing I have heard is really high. This unit also has the front hydraulics (for a grapple) or other devices.

I think you will find a TLB with Hyd Thumb and a front grapple and forks will be a great tool for woods work and what you plan to do.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #17  
A small tractors standard canopy is not a FOPS rated canopy(falling object protection system)
unless it is completely made of steel in the roof, has four support posts and rated for a falling object to impact it.
 
/ Advice on tractor selection? #19  
For land clearing definitely hire or rent a bulldozer. I rented one for a week and cleared and leveled everything in no time. The newer joystick models are not difficult to operate...
 
/ Advice on tractor selection?
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Leon: I appreciate the insight, especially with my limited experience. I've seen it done with cutting roots on one or three sides, but not yet done it myself.
Understood re clearing radii and difference in growth / strength of trees around the perimeter; stumps here will be part of clearing out only where they are, or are likely to be, under building slabs or vehicle parking / operating areas.
"shovel logging"?
 

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