House Build 2023

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

Concrete finishers got here early early. Pumper truck showed up just before daybreak. Then we all waited almost 2 hours for the first load of concrete... There was a highway bridge project that the trucks were working on. I guess highways are more important than houses, go figure?

71 yards for the slab. It took about 6 hours from the first load until the finishers left.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

I was there for the pour. It was pretty wet to my eye but they did a good job pulling the wire up. There are a couple of decent cracks, but you can't throw a cat through them so i think it's going to be fine.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

That was a Friday and i was told the framers would be there the following wednesday. Came home Monday to this. There wasn't even any materials there when I left for work.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

I was there for the pour. It was pretty wet to my eye but they did a good job pulling the wire up. There are a couple of decent cracks, but you can't throw a cat through them so i think it's going to be fine.

Also the cracks are only from inside corners so far, and only a few.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

Hopefully I can get a few opinions here.

2 questions:

Shingles:
Going to go with GAF Timberline HDZ in either Charcoal or Pewter Gray. They are both very dark, the Pewter Grey has a bit of a silverish grit. Is there any real difference in cooling costs with both being pretty dark? Everyone says the lighter has to be better, but no one I've talked to really has any hard data. Wife much prefers the charcoal. Attic insulation should be R38, but there is a small-medium sized area in the great room vault that is kind of captured with little to no airflow. 2X12 rafters in those areas with roof on one side and ceiling on the other.

Timberline HDZ - America's best selling roof shingle | GAF

Timberline HDZ shingles offer the perfect mix of beauty and long-term durability, with strong industry-leading warranties. Get advanced roof protection today!

www.gaf.com

HVAC:
More important in my mind. I have 2 quotes from top tier installers. Both come in at almost exactly the same price, both have 2 Heat pumps and a mini split. Just under $22k Main floor is around 2,600 sqft with 21' vault in the 30X30+ great room, and about a 15' vault in the master. Lots of volume to cool.

1) Goodman, total of 5.5 tons 14.2 SEER plus 12k BTU 17 SEER Daikin mini split - can upgrade to 15.2 SEER for about $2k
2) Trane, Total of 4 tons 14 SEER plus 12k BTU mini split - can upgrade to 15 SEER for $7K

I'm leaning toward the Goodman since it's a lot more cooling tonnage for the same price. Is that a bad call or would you make the same one?

I need to make these decisions as soon as possible. Plumbing top out is tomorrow so basically both trades are waiting on me. I love spending money...

 

[buckeyefarmer]

There is one concrete guy I follow on YouTube. He does amazing concrete. He explains and shows all the time how they use chairs, insert chairs as they go, and / or pull up the rebar. From watching his video, once you pull up the wire or rebar in concrete , it is not going back down. He shows them pull the rebar, stand on it, and you see it not going back down.
Put down some wire and rebar, start spreading gravel on it, pulling it as you go. I guarantee you will not push it back down once you pull it up.
The only way it stays on the bottom is if no effort is made to pull it up.

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

I think you are on the right track with the Goodman 5.5 tons.

I heat and cool 2600 sq ft two story with a 4 ton Trane, it was professionally installed 30 years ago and never a problem with the volume I have here.
With the high ceilings you are going to have I don't think the 4 Ton trane would keep up with the demand with higher outside temps.
Edit: The R value in our attic is R44.

Shingle? Just reroofed my house at the end of June. Went with a shade lighter shingle and it did not make any difference in our energy consumption during the hot weather. Used the shingles in the link below.

Windsor® Scotchgard™

Windsor® Scotchgard™ shingles deliver extreme all-weather resilience, a Class 4 hail impact rating, and algae and smog-reducing granules.

www.malarkeyroofing.com

The charcoal vs the pewter gray is about the same difference as we went with on our new roof.
Nice looking shingles you are going to use.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

@EddieWalker What say you about the AC systems above?

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm not an HVAC Guy, so most of my experience with them is fixing the house after the AC system fails, or leaks from not having any bleach poured through the drain lines. There is a big Trane factory here in town and from what I've been told by people that work there, I wouldn't own one.
Sigarms is the HVAC expert on here. Hopefully he will see this and comment soon.

I've never seen any evidence that the color of the shingle affect the temperatures inside the attic. One thing that people sometimes get confused is that the heat in the attic is needed to create air flow through the attic. Air rises when it's hot, and that hot air in the attic pulls cooler air from the soffit vents, into the attic, and then out through the roof vents. In my opinion, a ridge vent gives you the most air flow. More air flowing through your attic, they dryer it will be. Air flow is how condensation is removed from an attic. A dry attic will last forever.

Where I live, R40 is the minimum R Value for Code. I personally have R60 in my home. Simple rule of thumb with blown in insulation is R30 is about a foot thick, R60 is two feet thick. After R60, you are not gaining anything more. Here, our main battle is against the heat, and the higher R value that you have in your attic, the less you pay to cool your house in the summer.

For your area that is limited to the thickness of the 2x12's, which are 11 1/4 inch tall, the very best you could hope for is R30 if you use fiberglass batts. That's OK, but it's not great either. If you can, that would be an ideal place to go with closed cell foam. NEVER use open cell foam on a roof, it retains moisture and speeds up the decay of the roof.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

Calling @Sigarms for opinions on the HVAC question above please.

 

[EddieWalker]

There is one concrete guy I follow on YouTube. He does amazing concrete. He explains and shows all the time how they use chairs, insert chairs as they go, and / or pull up the rebar. From watching his video, once you pull up the wire or rebar in concrete , it is not going back down. He shows them pull the rebar, stand on it, and you see it not going back down.
Put down some wire and rebar, start spreading gravel on it, pulling it as you go. I guarantee you will not push it back down once you pull it up.
The only way it stays on the bottom is if no effort is made to pull it up.

I'll watch the YouTube if you'll provide the link. I've seen several different YouTube videos of concrete being poured, and it was horrible. Usually it's soupy wet. I mean, to the point of being ridiculous soupy. There is usually the one guy who just pulls up the wire while the others guys spread the mix, and walk on what he's been pulling up. I love to read the comments on those videos because they are so brutal in pointing out just how bad it is.

I'm not directing this towards you, but I think it's something that needs to be replied to. In the world of concrete work, the biggest lie that is told is that you can pull up rebar or wire while spreading it, and it will remain in the slab while walking on it. When pushed, they will tell you that the rocks get under it and keeps it in place. This just isn't true.

Wire is the worse, but both wire and rebar need to be held up off of the ground to remain in the middle to lower 1/3 to be effective. 100% of every slab that I've cut into with wire has had the wire on the dirt, or on the plastic, which was on the dirt. It's never in the concrete, where it needs to be. Just guessing, I probably cut into concrete slabs to move drain lines on remodels half a dozen times a year. Maybe half of them have wire, and it was walked on when the slab was poured.

Concrete is one of those very basic things that require some very basic things to get it right. Every problem that happens with concrete is from a contractor cutting a corner. Usually it's to get the job done faster, like adding water, and not using chairs. More water makes the mix flow faster and easier. Not having chairs allows everyone to move around easier without tripping.

 

[Sigarms]

Sigarms is the HVAC expert on here. Hopefully he will see this and comment soon.

I'm not an expert by any means, it's what I do to make money and by the grace of God I haven't screwed too many things up in my line of work that I can still do it. Nothing more nothing less, just that I like to talk about it sometimes when offering input

 

[Sigarms]

HVAC:
More important in my mind. I have 2 quotes from top tier installers. Both come in at almost exactly the same price, both have 2 Heat pumps and a mini split. Just under $22k Main floor is around 2,600 sqft with 21' vault in the 30X30+ great room, and about a 15' vault in the master. Lots of volume to cool.

1) Goodman, total of 5.5 tons 14.2 SEER plus 12k BTU 17 SEER Daikin mini split - can upgrade to 15.2 SEER for about $2k
2) Trane, Total of 4 tons 14 SEER plus 12k BTU mini split - can upgrade to 15 SEER for $7K

I'm leaning toward the Goodman since it's a lot more cooling tonnage for the same price. Is that a bad call or would you make the same one?

I need to make these decisions as soon as possible. Plumbing top out is tomorrow so basically both trades are waiting on me. I love spending money...

I haven't read the whole thread, but if these are two "top tier installers", the first question I would have is why two contractors are 1.5 tons size wise apart on a new construction home when a load should have been done in the first place?

For the quote, are we talking about two split ducted heat pumps with a ductless mini split (total of 3 systems) or one split ducted system with ductless mini split (total of 2 systems)?

If you're at 4.5 ton on the Goodman, its impossible, they only make a 4 or 5 ton system (you state 5.5 tons with a 12K Daikin mini split).

Not certain how cold it can get in your neck of the woods, but I will tell you a 17 SEER Daikin (cheapest model they make) will only get you about 8,241 BTUh max heat at 23F outside air temp.

Daikin and Goodman are the same company.

If the Trane guy is offering a Trane mini split, it's made by Mitsubishi and is a mitsubishi unit. Comparing apples to apples, would be a NTX*EL system.

My home was built in 1988, we bought it second hand in 2005, and it's over 3k square feet that takes 7.5 tons and it was done right the first time as I knew the HVAC guy who did it. A new home built today, same size, I've seen as small at 2 ton do the whole home. This is why doing a ACCURATE load is very important IMO.

Also a little confused because looking at where you live, it's considered the south east. Per minimum standards, the basic requirement for heat pump on any tonnage is 14.3 SEER2, but you mention 14.2 SEER on Goodman an 14 SEER on the Trane.

End of the day, from my perspective, brand doesn't make a huge difference, it's the people putting it in for you. Because the loads are 1.5 tons apart, and you were quoted 14.2 SEER and 14 SEER, I'm scratching my head on how top tier these guys are. Keep in mind, still legal to sell existing heat pump inventory from last year, but halfway through the year, in my neck of the woods, all the standard SEER stuff is long gone and everything is SEER2 (don't ask, BS from the government on rating systems with static pressue LOL).

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

I miss typed on the seer for the Goodman, I see that it is spec'd as 14.3 SEER. No idea why they are so far apart. I asked them both and both were confident. The Goodman quote said he did his calculations on a 100 degree day and thinks the other one did calculations on a 92 degree day. Goodman parts are aparently more readily available around me.

Both are 2 ducted heat pump systems and a mini split. Goodman is 1x3 ton and 1x2.5 ton

Trane is 2x2 ton XR-14 is the model number. This one was originally 1x3.5 ton plus the mini split but updated the quote to the 2 systems when the framing was done.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I'll watch the YouTube if you'll provide the link. I've seen several different YouTube videos of concrete being poured, and it was horrible. Usually it's soupy wet. I mean, to the point of being ridiculous soupy. There is usually the one guy who just pulls up the wire while the others guys spread the mix, and walk on what he's been pulling up. I love to read the comments on those videos because they are so brutal in pointing out just how bad it is.

I'm not directing this towards you, but I think it's something that needs to be replied to. In the world of concrete work, the biggest lie that is told is that you can pull up rebar or wire while spreading it, and it will remain in the slab while walking on it. When pushed, they will tell you that the rocks get under it and keeps it in place. This just isn't true.

Wire is the worse, but both wire and rebar need to be held up off of the ground to remain in the middle to lower 1/3 to be effective. 100% of every slab that I've cut into with wire has had the wire on the dirt, or on the plastic, which was on the dirt. It's never in the concrete, where it needs to be. Just guessing, I probably cut into concrete slabs to move drain lines on remodels half a dozen times a year. Maybe half of them have wire, and it was walked on when the slab was poured.

Concrete is one of those very basic things that require some very basic things to get it right. Every problem that happens with concrete is from a contractor cutting a corner. Usually it's to get the job done faster, like adding water, and not using chairs. More water makes the mix flow faster and easier. Not having chairs allows everyone to move around easier without tripping.

Concrete with the Hauses. At around 18:50 min in this video he shows picking up the wire. He has many other videos and occasionally he will show the wire / rebar pickup.

He has a good video on the importance of Rebar. In this video, a prior person had laid the origional concrete with rebar on the bottom. He had to fix it when the sub material sunk. The slab still held because of the rebar, but he stresses the need to have it in the lower 1/3 and the use of chairs.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

another good video, How to pick a concrete contractor

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Another good one that talks about the chairs being put in as they pour.

 

[drumminj]

Ask both HVAC contractors to see the manual J calcs. See the design temps they used (indoor and outdoor), and the # of occupants and the added load from any appliances/electronics.

I had a consultant I hired do load calcs for me. Came in just over 2 tons. My builder's HVAC contractor spec'ed a 5 ton system (with no load calcs), then later upped it to a 6 ton system (I think that was an "f you, I don't want your business" move . Second contractor I had builder pull in did the calcs, end we settled on a 4 ton system (well, 2 two-ton systems). Still oversized, IMO, but they refused to go any smaller and the system is inverter heat pumps so have a pretty good turn-down ratio

Over-sizing leads to short-cycling which leads to less humidity removal in summer and less overall comfort

(just someone who did a deep investigation into this for our build, not a HVAC expert). Check out hvac-talk.com if you want to do more research. Also greenbuildingadvisor.com, energyvanguard.com blog, etc. Lots of info out there on sizing HVAC systems.

 

[EddieWalker]

Thanks for the links. I started watching the first one on my computer, but it kept freezing up on me. It's raining right now and it's probably my connection. I saw that they had a decent slump in most of the video, but it was way to wet when they poured the final filler where they ran short. Overall, from what I've seen so far, they do a nice job of finishing. I'll try to watch it again to see them pulling up the wire and saying that it doesn't go all the way back down again when they walk on it.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

Ok let's get some framing pictures going. Like I had said a few posts ago, framing started 3 days earlier than expected. The slab was poured on Friday. Monday my builder sent the first picture below around lunch. There had not even been any material when I left for work. These 3 were from far l day 1.