House Build 2023

   / House Build 2023 #51  
Dad retired from a volunter FD back 60 yrs ago. I think he said the firefighters pulled the meters if they felt the need to. But a lot has changed since. Don't know if that dept stills has that capability. Jon.
 
   / House Build 2023
  • Thread Starter
#52  
Lets switch gears and talk about AC for a moment. My builder recommends 14 seer based on the upfront cost and little ROI. Do any of you have any different advice? $20k was in the initial budget.



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   / House Build 2023 #55  
Lets switch gears and talk about AC for a moment. My builder recommends 14 seer based on the upfront cost and little ROI. Do any of you have any different advice? $20k was in the initial budget.



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I'm no expert on HVAC systems, so I'll just comment on a few things. The higher the Seer rating, the less it will cost you to run, or so they say. In the summer of 2019, I had to replace my HVAC system. I went with a Amana 3.5 ton Seer19 unit for $8,500 that did not include any duct work, since that was already in place. I financed it with a monthly payment of something like $200 a month, and paid it off early in two years.

I don't remember what the previous unit was rated for. It was a Trane that always had some sort of an issue. Comparing my electric bill from the summer before, and the summer of having the new, better rated unit, I couldn't see any difference in my electric bill.

Trane has a big factory here in Tyler, and I know quite a few people that work there. I've never heard anything bad about the place, or what's done there, but I don't know anybody that would buy a Trane a second time.

The best thing that I like about the Amana is how quite the outside unit is. The only place that I have to put it is next to my backyard porch. When it's on, you have to be paying attention to know it, otherwise, it's so quite, you just don't hear it.

As a Contractor, I've been in more attics then most people. One of my favorite things when I'm in an attic is solid metal duct work. They always leak and offer some cold air while up there. I've never seen a solid metal duct that didn't leak somewhere. I've never seen them brand new either, just ones that have been there for a few years. It's just a matter of time until one of the seams crack. Where you given some sort of a reason to go with metal ducts instead of flex lines?

Also, as a Contractor, I've been called by clients to try and improve the insulation and of rooms cooled my mini split systems. In my opinion, they are nowhere near as good as a ducted HVAC system. Not even close. Mini splits might be ok if that's your only option, after everything is built and you are adding on, or enclosing an area that you cannot get a duct to, but not for new construction where you should be able to get a duct there.

As for keeping a house at a desired temperature, insulation is the second most important thing. Air flow is number one. If the wind can get through our walls, your insulation is defeated. House wrap has been the standard to stopping air flow for awhile now, but it does leak and it requires a lot of tape to keep air from getting through the seams. Especially windows!!! Coatings like what's used on ZIP System are better then house wrap because they seal 100% of the air if taped properly.

Attic insulation is where my clients see the biggest reduction in their monthly bill. Almost every house is under insulated in the attic. Where I live in East Texas, our Code is R42 for attic insulation. That's about a foot and a half of blown in insulation. I personally have R60 in my house, which is 2 feet of Attic Cat blown in insulation. After R60, you are not going to notice anything, so that's where I like to be.

If you can afford Foam, then that changes everything. Closed Cell Foam stops air flow, and it's a better insulation then fiberglass or any blown insulation. I believe it's R value is undervalued, but I don't really know what Closed Cell equals in fiberglass or blown in. If you are talking to an Foam Insulation guy, ask if they use Open Cell on a roof. If he says yes run away and ignore everything he's told you. If he says that he wont use it because Open Cell retains moisture and that moisture destroys roofs, then listen to what he recommends for Closed Cell on your home.

Your HVAC system is only as good as your house seal, and insulation.
 
   / House Build 2023
  • Thread Starter
#56  
@EddieWalker, All good points I appreciate the input.

I have been waffling back and forth about spray foam insulation in the walls. The R value for 3" spray in a 4" wall is the same as 4" of cellulose. Are you saying that the foam will be superior? We had talked about foaming the walls and blown in the attic.

The mini split was my idea based on the room above the garage being occasional use. I figured I could just keep it cool enough while we aren't using it. If that's a bad idea I can probably make the change easily enough I just need to make sure to get the quote going as soon as possible.

I found a SEER "savings calculator" online yesterday. If it was accurate, there was no ROI even going out 15 years. I think I'll stay with the 14.

No idea on the metal vs flex ducts. I know zero about this.
 
   / House Build 2023 #57  
In my opinion, it's cheaper to do a really good job on sealing the exterior walls with tape a filling all the holes with a can of foam then it is to pay the price for foam insulation in the walls. Your windows are only going to be R2 or R3. Wall insulation is more about keeping the wind out then it is about keeping the cold air in from your AC system. Attic insulation is all about maxing out your R value, and the most cost effective method for that is spraying in something like Attic Cat, which is an easy DIY project. Just remember, once you do your attic, you can never go up there for any reason. The insulation has to look like fresh snow without any tracks through it. Once you crawl through it, you have opened a window into your house that can never be closed unless you spray loose insulation into that area again.

Foam fixes a lot of issues that might not be fixed any other way. It's especially good on older homes, where nothing was done to seal out the air in the walls when the house was built. Foam is also very good for high ceilings with very little room for insulation. You can get a lot of R value in a very small area with Closed Cell Foam.

When I'm done with my garage addition, I'm converting my existing garage into a Great Room with exposed beams and a high ceiling. All of my rafters are 2x6's with 2x4's on the flat over my trusses. I also have a metal roof. This gives me a maximum of 7 inches for insulating my ceiling in that room. I will spend the big money that is needed to spray Closed Cell Foam in that one room. Everything else is fiberglass in the walls and Attic Cat in the attics.
 
   / House Build 2023 #58  
I'm no expert on HVAC systems, so I'll just comment on a few things. The higher the Seer rating, the less it will cost you to run, or so they say. In

As a Contractor, I've been in more attics then most people. One of my favorite things when I'm in an attic is solid metal duct work. They always leak and offer some cold air while up there. I've never seen a solid metal duct that didn't leak somewhere. I've never seen them brand new either, just ones that have been there for a few years. It's just a matter of time until one of the seams crack. Where you given some sort of a reason to go with metal ducts instead of flex lines?

Your HVAC system is only as good as your house seal, and insulation.
I found my experience when working in attics the same with the metal ducts.
I would let the home owner know about the leaks.

On many homes where I was adding a circuit for A/C or mini splits, I saw 3 1/2" of insultation in the attics. Out of courtesy I would discuss insulation value with them and reccomend blown in insulation as a DIY project.
I have seen inspectors check off the insulation as complete and to code just because the insulation contractor was on site, but never checking the actual depth after insulation was installed.
 
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   / House Build 2023 #59  
I’ve never heard of a fire department that wouldn’t fight fire until the meter was pulled or transformer feed opened on residential. Not a thing in my area of east Tx.

Commercially, we keep power on. Too many safety systems rely on power to kill it. During all the fire department walks during the course of construction there isn’t ever a discussion on how to kill power, there is discussion and testing to make sure life safety power is available if utility power is lost. FD has no interest in learning how to cut power at switchgear and a utility crew isn’t showing up at FD speed to throw switches/fuse.


Regarding HVAC, code minimum is generally the best bang for buck. Step up only if you want nicer features or a more ‘comfortable’ space. My units were at cost, so I went with XV20s I believe back in 2017/2018. Variable speed indoor fan and outdoor fan/compressor units. Zoned system (7 zones in house).

They are extremely quiet. Like can’t hear them start, zero compressor noise, no abrupt air noise. Probably my favorite feature about the system is how amazingly quiet they air.
They do a better job at controlling humidity and space temperature because they can run at a low rate longer vs a single stage off, wait to warm up, on cool to setpoint and repeat. Remember a perfectly sized AC unit will run 100% of the time on a design day during peak cooling hours. A design day should happen on average once per year. Almost all residential installations are oversized. Mine included. I have 2 - 4T units and 2 - 3T would have been more appropriate for my 3,800sqft in Texas. But because they are variable speed, there really isn’t a cycling penalty.

Our energy savings comes from zoning, at night only 3 rooms in the house are at 68-70, rest of the spaces are 60-78 setpoint. Spare bedrooms, media room, etc doesn’t come off 60-78 setpoints unless in use. Makes a big difference.

But again. Cheapest first cost and long run is code minimum units. Trane/American Standard, Carrier, whatever your local dealers will support.

I like mini-splits for specific purposes, big fan of VRF systems for certain commercial applications and the DIY splits have their place. But beware that system wise they are far more complicated than a traditional residential split. Only comment because most techs don’t have the training to actually work on and repair appropriately. They are part swappers, and when main boards or compressors or … fail, often the cost effective thing is to replace them. Residential mini-splits are almost disposable. I’d price against a tiny traditional split depending on size of the space.


I’m a huge fan of metal ductwork and limited flex. My attic is all insulated metal spiral with no more than 5’ of flex. A more commercial installation. Less friction loss, rigid. I’ve never witnessed a correctly installed residential system with 100% flex. There are ways to do it correctly, but they aren’t done. Poor flex support, undersized (especially returns), crushed by other trades, poor joints, insulation gaps, poor terminations, inadequate damper placement, you name it.


Insulation, open cell foam is considerably less than it used to be. I’d highly recommend for exterior walls. Be sure window and door jambs are being sealed appropriately as well. This is a hard upgrade later to replace 3.5” batt. I’ve never heard anyone say they were upset with their wall tightness after foam.

Attic, the standard is a bunch of blow in. Crazy mess and makes work up there a disaster, but big r-value is cheap. God help you if you want to add a can light in the future and you have to excavate down to your ceiling. But it works!

(Then if you are like typical southern construction, put the HVAC and shoddy ductwork up there where it is 170* in the summer.)

We sprayed our roof with 3” CC and 5” OC, attic is within 5* of house temp almost always. Which is nice for unit maintenance and we use it as storage (walk in from 2nd level, no ladders, stairs to upper attic). This was a premium cost, but worth it for our use.

Big ol thick blanket of blow in works, as noted above ‘as long as not distributed’
 
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   / House Build 2023 #60  
We are doing closed cell in our barndo build.

I believe r 7.5 per inch for the first 2 inches. Decreasing value with each additional inch.

An air exchange system is something I need…..still in the investigating stage.
 

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