If it's cold where you live, what are you heating with and what is it costing?

[5030]

Others have mentioned it, but no smoke and mirrors.

Dont confuse efficiencies of various heating methods with cost.

Wood, propane, and fuel oils are never 100% because they exhaust. That exhaust is wasted heat.

Electric resistance is no waste. Dont matter if its ceramic, quartz, infared, your oven, a blow dryer, or a light bulb. With electricity, one watt produces 3.414 btu's of heat.

With refrigerant and a compressor, we can generate 9 or 10 btu's of heat for watt of input. So hence 300% eff. Its a simple way of saying its can produce 3x the heat on the same electric usage (or the same heat on 1/3 the usage).

The issue with that is, your electricity rates keep going up so the higher they go, the more it costs to glean those BTU's. Both of my biomass stoves are 85% efficient. I'm good with that and our new Bryant condensing furnace is rated at 95% efficient.

 

[5030]

Technically, I'm a farmer.

I was always under the impression that you were a thread pruner and thread remover...

 

[ddbackhoe]

When I am mowing pasture it is worth a lot, when am shoveling manure 2x a day it is worth very little.

I get stares from the horses and a cold shoulder to cry on from doing ours. Isnt that enough motivation?

 

[MossRoad]

I was always under the impression that you were a thread pruner and thread remover...

 

[LD1]

The issue with that is, your electricity rates keep going up so the higher they go, the more it costs to glean those BTU's. Both of my biomass stoves are 85% efficient. I'm good with that and our new Bryant condensing furnace is rated at 95% efficient.

The cost of everything goes up so its a moot point. 10 years ago my electric rates were ~$0.10/kwh. 20 years ago they were about $0.08/kwh.
20 years ago firewood was $100/cord. 10 years ago it was ~$160-180/cord. Now its $200-$250/cord.

I dont track the prices of pellets or biomass. But given the cost to produce, and fuel to transport, I'd assume long term there will be a similar rate of increase

 

[LD1]

Processed wood pellets and dried corn is much less expensive per realized BTU than propane or NG and especially less expensive than electric heating,

Your first post you make this claim.

Maybe you are right? But as deep into this thread as we are I aint gonna go dig back through....did you ever give numbers?

How much does a bag/ton/etc of your fuel cost you? And how many btu's is it giving you? That is the only true number.

Prices are different everywhere....but it seems the larges price variations are electric.
IE: propane, HHO, pellets, etc all seem to be about the same or similar cost through out the country. But electric....ive seen people say they pay less than $0.10 and others pay over $0.30

With my geo and $0.14/kwh I cannot justify paying MORE for a different heating source

 

[4570Man]

Your first post you make this claim.

Maybe you are right? But as deep into this thread as we are I aint gonna go dig back through....did you ever give numbers?

How much does a bag/ton/etc of your fuel cost you? And how many btu's is it giving you? That is the only true number.

Prices are different everywhere....but it seems the larges price variations are electric.
IE: propane, HHO, pellets, etc all seem to be about the same or similar cost through out the country. But electric....ive seen people say they pay less than $0.10 and others pay over $0.30

With my geo and $0.14/kwh I cannot justify paying MORE for a different heating source

I’d like to see a btu cost breakdown with that as well. In my experience if natural gas is available you should burn it because it’s typically the cheapest bought fuel.

 

[ddbackhoe]

With the current admin not wanting us using any fossil fuels..
How much are we really willing to pay to swapout all of the fossil fired furnaces? Especially with a shortage of goods and workers?

We may be happy to pay x amount before the dust settles on this.

 

[LD1]

I’d like to see a btu cost breakdown with that as well. In my experience if natural gas is available you should burn it because it’s typically the cheapest bought fuel.

I agree with the natural gas.

Dont know current pricing....so dont know if its still holds true.....but in my area NG has always been the cheapest energy. And that anyone with it available, usually had NG heat, as well as stove, water heater, and dryer.

Where as propane.....is real close to electric in terms of cost per BTU if you average it out over a decade or so. Some years is cheaper, some years its more. Like just a few years ago when propane was ~$1/gal......and now its like $4. But thats where a electric heatpump/furnace with propane backup is the best "labor free" heat if you dont have nat gas. Then on the years when propane is dirt cheap like a few years ago....just switch the t-stat to emergency heat and dont let the electric run. On years when propane is high....let the electric do all it can.

But regardless of wood, pellets, natural gas, or anything else.....its VERY hard to beat the efficency (cost per BTU) of a heat pump. And that dont matter if its geo or air source.

And whats mind blowing to me, is I know people who build a house, and either set it up for propane or wood heat....but still install an air conditioner. IF you are already installing an air conditioner....I dont understand the logic to NOT go ahead and make it a heat pump. The cost difference is very minimal. And at temps above 40°, I dont think there is any cheaper way to heat (as long as your in an area that has reasonable electricity rates)

 

[LD1]

I’d like to see a btu cost breakdown with that as well. In my experience if natural gas is available you should burn it because it’s typically the cheapest bought fuel.

Closest I can find googling is ~$300/ton and 16.5M BTU/ton..

@85% efficient, that works out to $21.39 per million BTU

Heres how that compares in my area:
1. Heat pump.....300% eff.........$0.14/kwh........$13.67/Mbtu
2. Firewood.........70%eff...........$250/cord........$14.88/Mbtu
3. Biomass..........85% eff.........$300/ton...........$21.39/Mbtu
4. Propane...........95% eff..........$3.25/gal........$37.45/Mbtu
5. Elec Resistance..100%eff.........$0.14/kwh......$41.00/Mbtu

 

[MossRoad]

Closest I can find googling is ~$300/ton and 16.5M BTU/ton..

@85% efficient, that works out to $21.39 per million BTU

Heres how that compares in my area:
1. Heat pump.....300% eff.........$0.14/kwh........$13.67/Mbtu
2. Firewood.........70%eff...........$250/cord........$14.88/Mbtu
3. Biomass..........85% eff.........$300/ton...........$21.39/Mbtu
4. Propane...........95% eff..........$3.25/gal........$37.45/Mbtu
5. Elec Resistance..100%eff.........$0.14/kwh......$41.00/Mbtu

Can you find those stats for other areas of the country, like far north, far south, etc.? I'm still on the fence about heat pumps when it's below zero.

 

[Snobdds]

Just this year I put in two geo thermal wells at the house in steamboat, not really to keep it warm, but to melt the driveway. I also put in a new driveway and sidewalks with pex. I don't have a year under my belt to see what temp beyond the natural temp the geo thermal produces to melt all the snow. The contractor suggested I just circulate the water, which is around 55*, to see how it works. I think once the cold really sets in, I will have to have the boiler come on to maintain this. I was paying about 10K a winter for snow removal. The last few years it's been a pain to find a reliable snow removal company that does a good job. That is what really prompted me to go to this set up. I should break even on the cost of the well and concrete in about 8.5 years. I also have a wood stove for when I'm there. Nothing dries out wet ski clothes than a nice dry fire.

At the ranch it's propane and wood heat.

At the city house, it's natural gas heat.

At the cabin...it's wood heat only.

 

[deezler]

And whats mind blowing to me, is I know people who build a house, and either set it up for propane or wood heat....but still install an air conditioner. IF you are already installing an air conditioner....I dont understand the logic to NOT go ahead and make it a heat pump. The cost difference is very minimal. And at temps above 40°, I dont think there is any cheaper way to heat (as long as your in an area that has reasonable electricity rates)

For real. My buddy next door puts up to three window A/C units into his house every summer (his winter heat is combo of woodstove and propane furnace). I tried to show him how easy it was to install my $2200, 24k BTU MrCool heat-pump mini-split. We use it for heat whenever its above 40f outside, if needed (pretty rare) but obviously it is primarily for luxuriously-capable, whole house air conditioning. Still pumps great heat out at 20f outside temps, but probably sucks 1500-2000 watts to do that.

Regarding "cost of everything goes up" for comparing heat sources... uh, well no, my chainsaw gas is only $3/gallon still LOL. Sorry, sorry, not starting that again.

 

[LD1]

Can you find those stats for other areas of the country, like far north, far south, etc.? I'm still on the fence about heat pumps when it's below zero.

I would have no idea where to find those stats.

Look on craigslist and market place and see what a cord of wood is bringing in your neck of the woods.
Look at your electric bill. What Cost / kwh usage will get you your electric rate.
Same for propane and other sources. Then its just becomes simple math...

But regarding a heat pump....down to 0°F, air to air isnt gonna be efficient at those temps. Alot of variables based on the cost of both electric and other fuel options....but once you go below freezing.....other sources of heating start to become more efficient than a heat pump.

But as long as loops are properly sized, Geo dont care if its zero outside. Its still gonna be cheaper per BTU. So when you say on the fence about "heat pumps", are you talking air to air or geo?

 

[MossRoad]

I would have no idea where to find those stats.

Look on craigslist and market place and see what a cord of wood is bringing in your neck of the woods.
Look at your electric bill. What Cost / kwh usage will get you your electric rate.
Same for propane and other sources. Then its just becomes simple math...

But regarding a heat pump....down to 0°F, air to air isnt gonna be efficient at those temps. Alot of variables based on the cost of both electric and other fuel options....but once you go below freezing.....other sources of heating start to become more efficient than a heat pump.

But as long as loops are properly sized, Geo dont care if its zero outside. Its still gonna be cheaper per BTU. So when you say on the fence about "heat pumps", are you talking air to air or geo?

Both. I'm concerned that to air isn't going to work in our cold when we need it most. Almost certain of that. Geothermal installation price I'd have to look at the return on investment. We're currently running a 30+ year old gas furnace that seems to be working well.

 

[ovrszd]

I agree with the natural gas.

Dont know current pricing....so dont know if its still holds true.....but in my area NG has always been the cheapest energy. And that anyone with it available, usually had NG heat, as well as stove, water heater, and dryer.

Where as propane.....is real close to electric in terms of cost per BTU if you average it out over a decade or so. Some years is cheaper, some years its more. Like just a few years ago when propane was ~$1/gal......and now its like $4. But thats where a electric heatpump/furnace with propane backup is the best "labor free" heat if you dont have nat gas. Then on the years when propane is dirt cheap like a few years ago....just switch the t-stat to emergency heat and dont let the electric run. On years when propane is high....let the electric do all it can.

But regardless of wood, pellets, natural gas, or anything else.....its VERY hard to beat the efficency (cost per BTU) of a heat pump. And that dont matter if its geo or air source.

And whats mind blowing to me, is I know people who build a house, and either set it up for propane or wood heat....but still install an air conditioner. IF you are already installing an air conditioner....I dont understand the logic to NOT go ahead and make it a heat pump. The cost difference is very minimal. And at temps above 40°, I dont think there is any cheaper way to heat (as long as your in an area that has reasonable electricity rates)

In Fall and Spring we use our HVAC air to air heat pump. When we start seeing ice on the ponds we crank up the floor heat. Reverse in the Spring.

 

[Carl_NH]

Here is a calculator for the cost vs efficiency - copy and paste into excel and adjust for your local area and heat source.

ENERGY COST CALCULATOR
Enter the costs in Column E below for the various fuels in your area, or just use
the numbers already listed.
FUEL	ENERGY CONTENT		UNIT PRICE		HEAT CONVERSION EFFICIENCY		COST PER MILLION BTU
Kerosene	130,000​	BTU/gal	$4.05​	/gal	91	%	$34.23
#2 Fuel Oil	135,000​	BTU/gal	$4.00​	/gal	89		$33.29
Propane	92,000​	BTU/gal	$2.69​	/gal	94		$31.11
Natural Gas	100,000​	BTU/therm	$1.79​	/therm*	94		$19.04
Electricity - Resistance	3,412​	BTU/kWh	$0.34​	/kWh**	100		$99.65
Electricity - Heat Pump	11,945​	BTU/kWh	$0.34​	/kWh**	100		$28.46
Coal	13,200​	BTU/lb	$300.00​	/ton	75		$15.15
Firewood-Hardwood	25,000,000​	BTU/cord	$375.00​	/cord	60		$25.00
Wood Pellets	8,200	BTU/lb	$350.00	/ton	85		$25.11
Shelled Corn	6,800​	BTU/lb	$6.00​	/bushel	75		$21.01

 

[LD1]

Here is a calculator for the cost vs efficiency - copy and paste into excel and adjust for your local area and heat source.

ENERGY COST CALCULATOR
Enter the costs in Column E below for the various fuels in your area, or just use
the numbers already listed.
FUEL	ENERGY CONTENT		UNIT PRICE		HEAT CONVERSION EFFICIENCY		COST PER MILLION BTU
Kerosene	130,000​	BTU/gal	$4.05​	/gal	91	%	$34.23
#2 Fuel Oil	135,000​	BTU/gal	$4.00​	/gal	89		$33.29
Propane	92,000​	BTU/gal	$2.69​	/gal	94		$31.11
Natural Gas	100,000​	BTU/therm	$1.79​	/therm*	94		$19.04
Electricity - Resistance	3,412​	BTU/kWh	$0.34​	/kWh**	100		$99.65
Electricity - Heat Pump	11,945​	BTU/kWh	$0.34​	/kWh**	100		$28.46
Coal	13,200​	BTU/lb	$300.00​	/ton	75		$15.15
Firewood-Hardwood	25,000,000​	BTU/cord	$375.00​	/cord	60		$25.00
Wood Pellets	8,200	BTU/lb	$350.00	/ton	85		$25.11
Shelled Corn	6,800​	BTU/lb	$6.00​	/bushel	75		$21.01

Your electric rates are brutal at $0.34/kwh

 

[Carl_NH]

Your electric rates are brutal at $0.34/kwh

Yes they are - just went from .22 to .34 in August due to cost of fuel

Also, here is a link to the calculator where you can download the excel file.

Online Annual Heating Energy Cost Analyzer

Estimate the cost impact of using different heating fuels with the help of this calculation tool

extension.psu.edu