A newbies DIY solar install

[LD1]

Well, @LD1 our five year payback comes with $0.50/kWh power...Careful what you wish for.

Nope....don't envy that at all.

I have crunched all these numbers on solar about 4-5 times in the past 20 years. I cannot seem to get below a 15 yr payback.

So looks like I'm probably gonna hold off again.

 

[jk96]

Nope....don't envy that at all.

I have crunched all these numbers on solar about 4-5 times in the past 20 years. I cannot seem to get below a 15 yr payback.

So looks like I'm probably gonna hold off again.

Don't blame you. My criteria going in was that payback had to be in 8 years or less.

 

[LD1]

Don't blame you. My criteria going in was that payback had to be in 8 years or less.

I could probably get down around that if the surplus was paid a little better, at the $0.08 G&T rate....and if it would eat into the $57 service fee, and IF my separate meter would somehow be included.

I think there is some mis-information even on my COOP's website.

This is on their webiste:

If the total amount of credit exceeds the member’s total bill for the month, the amount that the dollar value of the credit exceeds the total bill cost will be carried over to the following month, and the current month’s bill will be $0.

• However, the total dollar value of credits over the prior 12 months cannot exceed the total amount billed over those same 12 months. Credits above this limit will be forfeited; however, such a situation is unlikely.

I read that as you CAN make enough solar to have a $0 bill but will NEVER "make" money.

However when talking to them I was explicitly told there is NO WAY to ever have a bill less than $57. Seems contradictory.

And surplus credited at the "avoided cost" rate.....

There are two rates on my current bill. Distribution (my electric companies charge for poles, lines, service, etc) at $0.0266....and a generation and transmission charge (G&T) of ~$0.08/kwh. That is what they PAY buckeye power (I think) for buying electric. Then the "avoided cost" rate of $0.021

I would "assume" since they are currently buying their power for 8 cents.....charging an extra 2.6 cents to distribute it to everyone, that the avoided cost rate would be the higher 8 cents per kwh. Nope. Drops all the way to 2.1 cents.

Again.....they dont really seem to keen on people going solar.

With my electric bill only averaging $200....it seems $15k investment only to get my bill to average $120/month isnt a smart play.

I'd like to think that maybe the person I talked to was incorrect? Maybe the surplus does eat away at the $57 and maybe the avoided cost rate is a bit higher than 2.1 cents? I know of a couple of people in the area that do have some panels. I think I am gonna go talk to them and see if they will show me a bill. But I dont think any of the people that have solar have enough panels to make a surplus....so it may not reveal anything.

 

[Roric]

LD1
May I submit for your consideration a summary of the solar
array that I self-installed and it's expected payback. Keep in mind that the extreme variation of electrical utilties' rates, incentive programs, tax rebates and many other things mean that your milage may vary. Everyone should do their own homework and check and double check for"gimmies" and "gotchas".

I had been looking for years at solar for our home and for a long time I thought it was rich people that spent $40,000 on a system so they could brag about getting a $20 check every month from the electric company. When the prices of solar and components went down a bit and with the impending shrinking of the 30% federal tax credit, I refigured
the numbers and decided to act.

The system is a roof mounted 7.5 kw (20x375 watt panels), facing direct south-tilted at 19 degrees roof (4/12 pitch). Ironridge mounting and SolarEdge Optimizers and inverter with electric-vehicle charging outlet. Panels placed atop a detatched garage and the current from the inverter is piped about 200 feet to the production meter then to a 40Amp breaker in the main 200Amp house panel. Our home is 2600 sq feet with 2 kitchens 2 laundry rooms (a mother-in law space) with electric appliances. This is a grid-tied system in central Minnesota.

How I calculate payback:
Because of all of the different charges on our electric bill I am using dollars paid on our bill every month to keep it simple.
For the 2 years before solar the bills totalled $3600 or about 1800 a year, 150 per month averaged out. Since the solar array went online the bills average about $36 per month. We are also paid about 7 cents per kwh production as part of a "solar-rewards" program that is paid out for the first 10 years of production. Since production is about 9000kwh per year, we get a check for about $630 each year. We come out about $200 to the good each year so far.
(Also, we no longer have extended family living with us and we have been making energy smart ratings a big part of anything we purchase.
But we purchased a Plug-in-Hybrid that adds to our usage but subtracts from our gas bill. Probably a wash)
The cost of materials, equipment rentals, and permiting totaled about $14,000. The federal tax rebate of 30% reduced that to $9,800.
The $1,800 we were spending divided into $9,800 comes out to 5.44 years
That is what I use for payback. We are 2 years into this and as retired people, anything done to reduce monthly bills is very cool.
I found the installation to be logical, straight-forward and fun. I found dealing with the permiting, the utility and the city zoning hurdles most of the work and all of the headache. As a retired electrician, I was very well versed in permit processes but unprepared
for the hoops and ladders involved. Lessons learned.
That said, it was an adventure I'm glad I went through.
Remember your milage may vary.

Regards and good luck,
R

 

[plowhog]

our five year payback comes with $0.50/kWh power.

holy cow ... my electrician offered "deal of the century" pricing to wire up solar at my NV residence.

I looked into it, wanted to do it, and could not justify it. Electric there (recently) was about .11 cents/kw.

 

[cqaigy2]

Well, one to thing to think about, is you aren't taxed on the money you save, as apposed to the money you make. Power is way too cheap here for me to consider doing solar to replace my electric used from the grid. I mentioned in another thread, that if i get an EV i might think about doing self installed off grid, to partially offset power to charge it, but i would consider it mostly as hobby, not how much it would save.

From a small system i have a couple used, $50 200+ watt panels connect to. It's very cloudy here right now.

 

[cqaigy2]

Just wanted to show one where there was a bit of solar charging taking place.

 

[Oaktree]

With my electric bill only averaging $200....it seems $15k investment only to get my bill to average $120/month isnt a smart play.

Would even make less sense for me, it's a rare month when my bill tops $50 (and almost 2/3 of that is "delivery" costs according to my statement). Add to that the fact that we only get a few hours of sunlight Nov. thru Feb. since the sun is so low in the sky. It would never pay for itself.

 

[LD1]

One thing is certain
For some it makes sense. For others it doesn't.

I'd say my limit on what's "worth it" is 8-10 year payback.

Too many variables to nail down an exact....but it's clear I'm pretty well outside 8-10 year.

The other unknown is that the less you use....the more per KWh you pay.

When I use a tiny 200kwh at my shop....bill is still $70. Now imagine adding another $10 because my $47 service charge goes to $57.

Only way to ever see a $50 bill here is to use ZERO electric. And that would just be the $47.75 service charge + tax...lol

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Interesting thread. I’ve crunched the numbers before, the only way feasible is a self install.

I keep detailed spreadsheet of my energy usage since building my house in 1997.
I keep sliding 12 month total each month, my highest is 26903 kWh / yr. lowest is 14435. These are only in last 10 yrs. before that they were lower. I would need system like JK96.
Yearly cost approximately $2400.

Not sure of net meter rules here.

Since 1997 I spent $34721 on electric, $57024 including electric, heat oil (replaced by geothermal 2012), and wood pellets.

Per month this yr, has varied from 645kwh to 2946kwh.

 

[LD1]

Interesting thread. I’ve crunched the numbers before, the only way feasible is a self install.

I keep detailed spreadsheet of my energy usage since building my house in 1997.
I keep sliding 12 month total each month, my highest is 26903 kWh / yr. lowest is 14435. These are only in last 10 yrs. before that they were lower. I would need system like JK96.
Yearly cost approximately $2400.

Not sure of net meter rules here.

Since 1997 I spent $34721 on electric, $57024 including electric, heat oil (replaced by geothermal 2012), and wood pellets.

Per month this yr, has varied from 645kwh to 2946kwh.

Interesting thread. I’ve crunched the numbers before, the only way feasible is a self install.

I keep detailed spreadsheet of my energy usage since building my house in 1997.
I keep sliding 12 month total each month, my highest is 26903 kWh / yr. lowest is 14435. These are only in last 10 yrs. before that they were lower. I would need system like JK96.
Yearly cost approximately $2400.

Not sure of net meter rules here.

Since 1997 I spent $34721 on electric, $57024 including electric, heat oil (replaced by geothermal 2012), and wood pellets.

Per month this yr, has varied from 645kwh to 2946kwh.

Get ahold of your electric company. That's the only way to get answers associated with cost and net metering

 

[newbury]

Nope....don't envy that at all.

I have crunched all these numbers on solar about 4-5 times in the past 20 years. I cannot seem to get below a 15 yr payback.

So looks like I'm probably gonna hold off again.

So in theory if you had gotten a 15 yr payback 20 years ago you would have been paid back for 5 years.

On another slant -
Has anyone seen a good DIY solar carport implementation? If so any good links?
I've got to replace a carport that was about 20x40. Basically I need to roof over the area to keep stuff underneath protected from the Mississippi sun and rain.
The previous carport was only paneled down on one side so I'm not looking for a complete enclosure.
I could orient it in a solar friendly angle.
But I'm thinking those big panels on frames could easily be adapted to a carport roof.

 

[jk96]

So in theory if you had gotten a 15 yr payback 20 years ago you would have been paid back for 5 years.

You would have to also factor in any maintenance or repairs over 20 years and how much system life is left at that point. Would be wiser just to invest your money for 20 years at a 15 year payback.

 

[LD1]

So in theory if you had gotten a 15 yr payback 20 years ago you would have been paid back for 5 years.

On another slant -
Has anyone seen a good DIY solar carport implementation? If so any good links?
I've got to replace a carport that was about 20x40. Basically I need to roof over the area to keep stuff underneath protected from the Mississippi sun and rain.
The previous carport was only paneled down on one side so I'm not looking for a complete enclosure.
I could orient it in a solar friendly angle.
But I'm thinking those big panels on frames could easily be adapted to a carport roof.

I dont like pushing the ROI out near a systems life expectancy. Just not smart use of funds IMO.

The other variable I have to factor....and no idea how it will impact things....is when my kids grow up and move out.

A 15 year payback puts my kids at 23 and 26. How much less power am I gonna use? I have no idea. But at a 15 year payback my system would become largely oversized before I reach payback. Not sure if that would qualify as a good thing or a bad thing.

An ~8 year payback would be reasonable. Doubling it is doubling the chance for something to go wrong....natural (like hail damage) or otherwise. Just not a risk I want to take at this point.

At a "potential" of only saving $1000/yr or less....Id have to be all in on a 12-13kw system including all permits and the $250 application fee to the electric company (dont think I mentioned it yet) for less than $8k. And at todays prices I dont see even getting close.

Again, my electric company through their fees and actions dont seem too keen on solar. So who am I to argue.

If was fun re-evaluating again whether solar would be a fit for me. And this probably wont be the last time I re-evaluate either. Thats how we make informed decisions. But this time around, the decision is clear to me that solar is not a wise use of funds at this time

 

[Oaktree]

So in theory if you had gotten a 15 yr payback 20 years ago you would have been paid back for 5 years.

You would have to also factor in any maintenance or repairs over 20 years and how much system life is left at that point. Would be wiser just to invest your money for 20 years at a 15 year payback.

You would also have to factor in the cost and efficiency of what was available 20 years ago. Both have come a long way in a customer's favor. That "15 year payback" today could very well have been double that 20 years ago.

 

[Carl_NH]

We installed a 24 panel 300W LG panels 7.2KW grid tie system December 2014, south facing garage roof - pitch 38*. This has generated 7200KWH per year average. As of Dec 2021 we will have generated 51MW of electricity.

I considered installing it myself, and hiring a electrician ($16K total materials) saving $10K, but in reality the $10K net cost with rebate was $5700, and got the warranty and they did all the work.

- System Cost $26,000 - 30% Federal Tax Credit ($8K) less NH State rebate ($4K) net cost $14K
- Net Metering pays us $.22 per KWH for what we don't use (net meter rate rises with prices)
- Our electric usage is 9000-9500 KWH per year (7-800KWH/month) so we generate 75% of usage
- We need to "buy" 2000KWH @ $.22 KWH so $450 per year vs cost for electricity $2050 so annual savings of $1600/year = 8.75 year ROI.
- So we have 2.75 years until the system provides "free" electricity

We heat 3800 SF with oil, and also have 3 mini splits for heat assist and summer cooling and our total outlay for heat and electricity annually is $150 per month or $1800/year with the solar array.

Bottom line, if your per KWH electric cost is less than $.15, its a push justify a solar investment.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

After the tornado that hit Mayfield Kentucky I wish I had a off-grid system without grid tie. This illustrates why I would not prefer a grid tie solar system. The generator gas at $3 a gallon is costing me overnight $36 to stay somewhat warm and run the well from time to time.

I really do not get the point about being concerned about payback. Like I mean how long is the payback period for a bass boat and a new pickup to pull it.

Sometime in life I just buy stuff because I want it and what it does for me from time to time.

While tornado damage in Graves county does not impact me directly somehow during all the storms TVA lost their ability to power some of our substations and once TVA gets back online many of us will have power.

 

[jk96]

After the tornado that hit Mayfield Kentucky I wish I had a off-grid system without grid tie. This illustrates why I would not prefer a grid tie solar system. The generator gas at $3 a gallon is costing me overnight $36 to stay somewhat warm and run the well from time to time.

I really do not get the point about being concerned about payback. Like I mean how long is the payback period for a bass boat and a new pickup to pull it.

Sometime in life I just buy stuff because I want it and what it does for me from time to time.

While tornado damage in Graves county does not impact me directly somehow during all the storms TVA lost their ability to power some of our substations and once TVA gets back online many of us will have power.

I know everyone's circumstances are different but with us we just don't have outages and going off grid to plan for a once in a lifetime event just doesn't make sense to me. I know we only get about 3.5 cents on overproduction but with our rate at 11.7 cents that's 30% of retail. Our production vs consumption is also only calculated at the end of each billing cycle and credits are good for 12 months. The way I look at it grid tied allows me to store 30% of my overproduction for up to 12 months with no batteries to purchase or maintain.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I know everyone's circumstances are different but with us we just don't have outages and going off grid to plan for a once in a lifetime event just doesn't make sense to me. I know we only get about 3.5 cents on overproduction but with our rate at 11.7 cents that's 30% of retail. Our production vs consumption is also only calculated at the end of each billing cycle and credits are good for 12 months. The way I look at it grid tied allows me to store 30% of my overproduction for up to 12 months with no batteries to purchase or maintain.

The last time we used our generator was in 2009 other than for testing purposes when we had ice storm. I was offline 65 hours because I'm on a three-phase line but the last one on a three phase line my brother was down about 3 weeks and he lives a mile from me so yes dependability is a concern that varies from location to location. Thankfully the generator ran and started this time and we do not know how long the tornado damage recovery is going to take. I'm off to an ajoining town to refuel. Another thing I'm just a very independent person and I hate depending on a third party for my emergency power needs. Access to water is key when you have animals and we are on a deep well.

 

[sandman2234]

After the tornado that hit Mayfield Kentucky I wish I had a off-grid system without grid tie. This illustrates why I would not prefer a grid tie solar system. The generator gas at $3 a gallon is costing me overnight $36 to stay somewhat warm and run the well from time to time.

I really do not get the point about being concerned about payback. Like I mean how long is the payback period for a bass boat and a new pickup to pull it.

Sometime in life I just buy stuff because I want it and what it does for me from time to time.

While tornado damage in Graves county does not impact me directly somehow during all the storms TVA lost their ability to power some of our substations and once TVA gets back online many of us will have power.

I am looking at selling my old Chevy that I don't drive anymore, to pay for a solar grid that would net me a few dollars saved. No bass boat, but pretty much the same issue!
David from jax