My Thoughts On Modern Day Tractors

[TreeDreamer]

If I didn't want a loader, 4wd, or hydrostatic I wouldn't consider any modern tractor. I'd pick up a bargain, maybe have some expenses (tires? fluids? belts/hoses) and buy a 60's or 70's workhorse like the Ford or MF (my previous tractor was a great Case 990 from the late 70's) preferrably with a Perkins diesel and use the crap out of it. Easy to work on, parts easily available, cheap to run, without nearly as much to go wrong. And I'd worry less about leaving it outside.

Mark

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I want to add some additional insights to the weight aspect that Jeff and I was discussing that will hopefully clear up the confusion surrounding this for future buyers. If you go back to the era of the middle 60's with the Ford 1000 series you will find that they used the same frame for all of their tractors. About the only differences were the engine horsepower and tire size, everything else stayed the same. Fast forward to today and what you got is Deere making two different frames for the same size tractor. The reason behind it is Deere is selling you weight but not really telling you that. What convolutes it is they bundle all these other things in with the heavier tractors such as bells and whistles that draws you in to purchasing something that may not be what you actually need. The other manufactures like Kubota are doing the same thing but doing it in their own way. For example, Kubota makes a distinction in the quality of hydrostat transmission you get depending on which series you choose where Deere does not do that. In the Deere world it's the same hydrostat transmission no matter what series you go to. Weight is now being treated like a commodity in the tractor world in today's era of time where in the past it was not.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Didn't think there were any tractors made after 1940s that did not come without live power. Live power to me is when PTO operates independent of whether clutch is engaged.

Lol...Exactly right? That's because there is no other industry that I know of that still builds whole good products with outdated technology.
The tractor industry is commoditizing every era of technology they can to create the illusion of choices for the consumer. When in reality it doesn't cost anymore money to put a independent PTO on a tractor then a mechanical one. In fact it's probably more expensive to build one with a mechanical PTO then an electric one.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

If I didn't want a loader, 4wd, or hydrostatic I wouldn't consider any modern tractor. I'd pick up a bargain, maybe have some expenses (tires? fluids? belts/hoses) and buy a 60's or 70's workhorse like the Ford or MF (my previous tractor was a great Case 990 from the late 70's) preferrably with a Perkins diesel and use the crap out of it. Easy to work on, parts easily available, cheap to run, without nearly as much to go wrong. And I'd worry less about leaving it outside.

Mark

But then you would be stuck with a gear drive transmission and no place to get it worked on around here if there was a problem.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

You describe a "turf" application then go on to say your property is too rugged. Which do you need? How much area do you need to maintain? Do you have a lot of hills? Maybe ventrac is worth a look. Green paint is expensive and easily outspec'd by competitors now.

If I had a lot of average with lots of nice turf plus other field maintenance Iight go with either a belly mower/brush hog combo, or maybe a rear finish/hog combo. Massey now makes an 1800 series tractor with mid PTO, these are on par with 3 series Deere.

Hello bartjoebob, my property is a combination of pasture grass that has turned into a very nice meadow and lawn grass. It's approximately 25 acres to keep cut and where I live it rains a lot and is very hot and humid so the grass grows like crazy. There's also fences to contend with.

I completely agree that Green is overpriced and underspec'd.

Rotary cutters don't do well on my property. I need a flail for the kind of vegetation and terrain that I have.

 

[jeff9366]

At the individual level, an average 18-hole golf course covers 150 acres, approximately 100 (67 percent) of which is maintained turfgrass. This area is predominantly comprised of rough (51 acres) and fairways (30 acres).
https://www.gcsaa.org › uploadedfiles › environment


A Ventrac equipped with a Ventrac flail mower or a Ventrac MK960 Wide Area Mower would be excellent for 25 acres.

Assuming a conservative Ventrac mowing speed of 5-mph, a MK960 Wide Area Mower will cut 4 to 4-1/2 acres per hour.



VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ventrac+MK960

 

[JethroB]

But then you would be stuck with a gear drive transmission and no place to get it worked on around here if there was a problem.

True about mechanics and local parts. My 2018 Kubota went to the dealership for a service this week so I put a new battery in the old MF 135 and dragged some brush. Old school was fun for about an hour. Then the stiff two stage clutch straight down clutch and the getting gassed by the under rear axle diesel exhaust began to wear on me. Tough 40-ish HP brute though. I’m ready for my HST to come home.

 

[CADplans]

That's a good size tractor. The tires on the rear are pretty beefy. Is that tractor the same size as the current 4 series models?

Please explain the abbreviation TEN and FIVE.

Yea, I think the 4105 is pretty close to the current 4 Series JD tractors.

As far as the 10 and 5 tires, the Ventrac guys mention how the JD mower "digs in" on sharp turns.
The JD mower in that video has O N E tire!!

The Ventrac mower is coupled to the front of the tractor, so, in effect, the mower has S I X tires,,
I hope the Ventrac mower does not dig in,, with 6 tires holding the mower up.

As far as the comparison, I pull a 6 foot mower, and I mow over ditches that are over 1 foot deep.
I do lift the front of the mower slightly, but, I keep mowing.

As far as comparison,, I will let the Ventrac lock its brakes, and I will pull the Ventrac up that hill, while I am still mowing.
I want to see the Ventrac pull the 4105,, even on level ground,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Tony H]

I have been in the market searching for a tractor for 2 years now to use in a turf application. What started out looking like plethora of options has now come to the realty that nothing in the market exactly fits or meets my needs. The problem with the U.S compact tractor industry is all the tractors are built around loaders and lift capacity and not PTO driven implements and horsepower. This design philosophy is totally contrary to the way tractors used to be built. Ford Tractor company came out with the 1000 series tractors in 1967. The 3000 was the compact tractor of that time and went on to become one of the greatest tractors that has ever been built. They are still fetching fairly high prices fifty years later due to their bullet proof design, battle tested reliability and incredible strength and power. Coming from being an owner of one of those tractors I have been surprised and disappointed at the lack of equal offerings in today's tractors. What I have observed is neither John Deere nor Kubota are offering a medium frame size compact tractor with more then 30 PTO horsepower. John Deere has the 3046R and the 3043D but here's the problem: The 3046R is stupid expensive and the 3043D has no live PTO. Some of you will suggest that I look at another brand of tractor and I have but here is what I found when I did that. They were either way away from me and/or the quality, durability, parts support, customer service and resale value were not there. Then there is the issue of not being offered the option to have a front mount PTO like the tractors in Europe have which takes more then 20% of your productivity away. It's obvious that the industry is doing this because they don't want to cannibalize sales on their front-mount mowers but when I looked at those they too were not the right fit for my application. Those machines are made for light duty mowing applications where the turf is well maintained and the terrain is fairly even and smooth. They are not what I would consider a rugged, all terrain machine. The tires are small and the ground clearance is fairly low so getting a machine like that stuck and damaged on a property like mine would not be hard. Zero Turn mowers are wonderful but the problem with them is they only offer rotary cutters, they have no gears or brakes for hill stability and they are also not good for rougher terrain. So if you are looking for a tractor exclusively for a mowing and turf application currently there are none that fit that use type well. It's ironic that the US tractor manufacturers build better tractor solutions for Europe then it does for it's own country. I have included a link to a copy of John Deere's European edition tractor brochure so you can learn and see what is being withheld from us in the US market:

John Deere

I have been in the market searching for a tractor for 2 years now to use in a turf application. What started out looking like plethora of options has now come to the realty that nothing in the market exactly fits or meets my needs. The problem with the U.S compact tractor industry is all the tractors are built around loaders and lift capacity and not PTO driven implements and horsepower. This design philosophy is totally contrary to the way tractors used to be built. Ford Tractor company came out with the 1000 series tractors in 1967. The 3000 was the compact tractor of that time and went on to become one of the greatest tractors that has ever been built. They are still fetching fairly high prices fifty years later due to their bullet proof design, battle tested reliability and incredible strength and power. Coming from being an owner of one of those tractors I have been surprised and disappointed at the lack of equal offerings in today's tractors. What I have observed is neither John Deere nor Kubota are offering a medium frame size compact tractor with more then 30 PTO horsepower. John Deere has the 3046R and the 3043D but here's the problem: The 3046R is stupid expensive and the 3043D has no live PTO. Some of you will suggest that I look at another brand of tractor and I have but here is what I found when I did that. They were either way away from me and/or the quality, durability, parts support, customer service and resale value were not there. Then there is the issue of not being offered the option to have a front mount PTO like the tractors in Europe have which takes more then 20% of your productivity away. It's obvious that the industry is doing this because they don't want to cannibalize sales on their front-mount mowers but when I looked at those they too were not the right fit for my application. Those machines are made for light duty mowing applications where the turf is well maintained and the terrain is fairly even and smooth. They are not what I would consider a rugged, all terrain machine. The tires are small and the ground clearance is fairly low so getting a machine like that stuck and damaged on a property like mine would not be hard. Zero Turn mowers are wonderful but the problem with them is they only offer rotary cutters, they have no gears or brakes for hill stability and they are also not good for rougher terrain. So if you are looking for a tractor exclusively for a mowing and turf application currently there are none that fit that use type well. It's ironic that the US tractor manufacturers build better tractor solutions for Europe then it does for it's own country. I have included a link to a copy of John Deere's European edition tractor brochure so you can learn and see what is being withheld from us in the US market:

John Deere

So you are looking for a tough mower? Like a Ventrac?
Or are do you have basic needs of a compact AND want rugged mowing ability? Funny you say the tractors don't have good PTO power. I always thought a 24hp at PTO from a 30hp machine was pretty good.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

So you are looking for a tough mower? Like a Ventrac?
Or are do you have basic needs of a compact AND want rugged mowing ability? Funny you say the tractors don't have good PTO power. I always thought a 24hp at PTO from a 30hp machine was pretty good.

I guess you could say that. I need a rugged mower that can leave a great finish cut without bogging the engine down and losing power.

Haha if you think those numbers are good you should see the horsepower specs on the Kubota LX3310. It's kind of unbelievable.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I should probably start another thread to discuss this but it relates back to my first post so I am going to keep it here. Here is another example of much better spec'd tractors being offered to Europe but not to us. The question is why?

 

[Torvy]

Here are some possible explanations in no particular order...
1) Regulatory differences - in some things, Europe may be stricter, but not all
2) Market differences - the US tends toward bigger, the market for 50+ HP is huge. Less so in Europe. Some of this is geographic, some is more cultural. As such, the competition in Europe, as a % of the market, is toward these smaller footprint tractors...the demand in Europe drives the supply...manufacturers have to make choices, for every small tractor they build, that means fewer large tractors. Here, that means less profit.
3) consumer demand - as above demand often pushes supply. There simply are too few North Americans clamoring for these. Most likely they have done focus groups and market research, the volume does not justify adding these and deleting something else...it is all about choice
4) poor management - given the success of Kubota, this is not likely, but some corporations have too little communication between divisions on different continents. They operate in isolation and miss opportunities.
5) People are stubborn and change is hard. This reminds me of the roundabout thread...they have used them a great deal in Europe, but less so in the US, especially in the Western US. Changing now, but many don't like it.

 

[IndyJay]

I should probably start another thread to discuss this but it relates back to my first post so I am going to keep it here. Here is another example of much better spec'd tractors being offered to Europe but not to us. The question is why?

I noticed this with the Kioti DK10 Series. Identical models vary greatly in feature and options between US and EU. The US DK10 shuttle has only two ranges limiting us to 8x8 gears while EU has 4 ranges providing 16x16 gears, much like my 27 year old MF1250. The EU model has a rocker switch for activating 4WD which also lights up an indicator in the dash, the US version has the indicator which lights up when you first turn on the key, but with a manual lever to engage 4WD, the light serves only to confuse new owners who wonder why their 4WD isn't working. The rocker switch alternately actives a Quick Steer feature also missing in US, providing yet another "fully functional" indicator light with no purpose. There are other differences that are found in the schematics and repair manual but these are most noticeeable due to the dash lights telling us that something is missing.

 

[prestond]

As you might guess from my Avatar, Ventrac gets my vote.

The Ventrac videos are a true representation of what the machine can do. I've had mine for over a year now and I am still amazed at what I can get done with that machine.

Hill stability, light footprint (dual wheel option), front mount PTO, easy and fast attachment changes, lots of attachment options, I could go on and on.

I can't imagine owing any thing else for 'estate management'. Some balk at the price, but I say it's worth every penny.

 

[FreeWulf]

I've noticed a similar problem in my own searches. It seems like most of the newer tractors today are focused on about 30HP at the PTO. That is way too small for me. I got by using a 35HP massey for years, and always felt it was underpowered with the rotary mower. A 5' mower would fairly regularly kill the motor if I wasn't careful about how much grass I was cutting at once.

The loaders at that size don't have much capacity. I lost count of how many times the neighbor asked if we could bring the backhoe over because their little loader would only lift 300lbs! Yes I know 30HP can lift more than that, but they're still underpowered at the loader.

All the HP specs today focus on the engine, not the PTO. I could care less what the engine horsepower is, I want to know how big of a mower I can pull, so I can get the field done as quickly as possible.

My desired specs are pretty simple. 50HP at the PTO, under 7,000lbs, and can lift 3,000lbs or close to it. Anything less than that feels underpowered to me. I'm not knocking those that use smaller tractors, that's just what I'm looking for.

 

[ptsg]

I've noticed a similar problem in my own searches. It seems like most of the newer tractors today are focused on about 30HP at the PTO. That is way too small for me. I got by using a 35HP massey for years, and always felt it was underpowered with the rotary mower. A 5' mower would fairly regularly kill the motor if I wasn't careful about how much grass I was cutting at once.

The loaders at that size don't have much capacity. I lost count of how many times the neighbor asked if we could bring the backhoe over because their little loader would only lift 300lbs! Yes I know 30HP can lift more than that, but they're still underpowered at the loader.

All the HP specs today focus on the engine, not the PTO. I could care less what the engine horsepower is, I want to know how big of a mower I can pull, so I can get the field done as quickly as possible.

My desired specs are pretty simple. 50HP at the PTO, under 7,000lbs, and can lift 3,000lbs or close to it. Anything less than that feels underpowered to me. I'm not knocking those that use smaller tractors, that's just what I'm looking for.

Check out the Branson 5835R if you have a dealer nearby.

58 engine HP and 48 HP at the PTO. 3,400 lbs loader capacity at max height and 5,800 lbs including the loader, with filled tires will get somewhat close to 7000 lbs.

Here is the specs. The Branson website sucks but the dealers' websites are good source for specs. Branson 5835R Tractor Loader - Keno Tractors

 

[deserteagle71]

My desired specs are pretty simple. 50HP at the PTO, under 7,000lbs, and can lift 3,000lbs or close to it. Anything less than that feels underpowered to me. I'm not knocking those that use smaller tractors, that's just what I'm looking for.

Good luck in finding that 3000 lb lift capacity front end loader in any smaller tractor.

 

[CADplans]

Good luck in finding that 3000 lb lift capacity front end loader in any smaller tractor.

My IH 584 has a Model 2250 loader on it,, and from using it, I would say the loaders capacity is,,,
2250 pounds.

I have used this machine for 25 years,, no way it will lift 3,000 pounds.
The entire machine, with loader, and filled tires weighs right at 10,000 pounds.

I am sure I could lift more "part way up",, etc,, but, I am just offering real world experience, with a specific machine.

 

[FreeWulf]

Check out the Branson 5835R if you have a dealer nearby.

58 engine HP and 48 HP at the PTO. 3,400 lbs loader capacity at max height and 5,800 lbs including the loader, with filled tires will get somewhat close to 7000 lbs.

Here is the specs. The Branson website sucks but the dealers' websites are good source for specs. Branson 5835R Tractor Loader - Keno Tractors

Thanks, I'm sure it's out of my price range, but that's good to know, I'll check it out.

My IH 584 has a Model 2250 loader on it,, and from using it, I would say the loaders capacity is,,,
2250 pounds.

I have used this machine for 25 years,, no way it will lift 3,000 pounds.
The entire machine, with loader, and filled tires weighs right at 10,000 pounds.

I am sure I could lift more "part way up",, etc,, but, I am just offering real world experience, with a specific machine.

That is such a beautiful 584. I love it. It's about perfect for what I'm looking for too.

I only need to lift about 2,000lbs, but I'd like to lift more. I also don't need to lift 3000 at full height, just about flatbed height. 3,000 is what I'm aiming for but I may have to give up some of that. I know I'll have to have a counterweight for that too.

 

[Xfaxman]

Rotary cutters don't do well on my property. I need a flail for the kind of vegetation and terrain that I have.

Out front mowers are the best in my experience: toolcat flail - Image Search
Toolcat costs more, but you get what you pay for, a cab and no DEF or regens.
And it will lift over 3000 pounds according to my crane scale.