Can rear ballast be dangerous?

[Deepdrop]

I think the owners manual for the FEL will give a break down on required ballast. Between the manual for the loader and the one for the tractor my tractor requirements are spelled out fairly well.

I just went through the tractor manual and the loader manual. They both mention using appropriate rear ballast but there is absolutely no guidance as to amount of weight.

 

[k0ua]

I just went through the tractor manual and the loader manual. They both mention using appropriate rear ballast but there is absolutely no guidance as to amount of weight.

Actually it did. It said use appropriate ballast.

Appropriate ballast varies, depending what you are doing on the other end of the tractor, and also how far that appropriate ballast stick out on the 3 point. The reason for using weasel words like appropriate is because they don't know what you are doing, or how your ballast is arranged, and they don't want litigation from you. You are supposed to have a brain and some experience and the knowledge to apply that experience to the situation at hand.

"Well how am I supposed to gain experience when I am just a new tractor owner" you ask? "I don't want to be dead, and I don't want to tear anything up" Well, that is why you come to TBN to ask questions. And we have told you to put between 500 and 600 lbs on your 3 point, and stop wearing your self to a frazzle by manually putting on weights, and either buy or build yourself a ballast box if you don't have anything else that heavy to hang on the 3pt, and most importantly "go on from there". In other words, see how that works, and adjust accordingly per you own experience in your own situation. Obviously if your loader will still pickup enough weight that one or more rear tires come off of the ground or even "get light", than that is not enough. Use what used to be known as "common sense". What that means is think for yourself, and apply your experience to the situation at hand, observe the results, and adjust as appropriately necessary.

 

[Deepdrop]

k0ua, I respectfully disagree with you. I think it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to offer some guidance on how to use rear ballast along with some specific examples. They could give general ranges of appropriate weights, discuss the relationship of distance from the 3 point, how it varies with tasks and terrain, etc. They could add a disclaimer to reduce liability. It then becomes the responsibility of the owner to read this and pay heed.
Your assumption that I'm supposed to have a brain AND some experience AND the knowledge to apply that experience is a false assumption for pretty much any first time tractor owner. I really had very little idea of the potential dangers until I had used my tractor, and I read the manual before I used it. In a similar way, reading about how to use a PTO, or 3 point hitch was pretty meaningless until I had actually used them. Until one of my rear wheels lifted up, I had no real appreciation for the risk, just a general knowledge that it could happen. I could have been badly hurt. Unfortunately, many people die each year from rollovers.
I am extremely grateful to the TBN community and I hope that as I gain experience, I'll be able to contribute as well. It's a wonderful resource, filled with very helpful and knowledgable people.
I realize that people get emotional about issues like this and I'm not trying to start an argument here. I just want to say that I disagree with you about the responsibility of the manufacturer and possibly the dealer. I agree with you and the value of the TBN community.

 

[k0ua]

k0ua, I respectfully disagree with you. I think it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to offer some guidance on how to use rear ballast along with some specific examples. They could give general ranges of appropriate weights, discuss the relationship of distance from the 3 point, how it varies with tasks and terrain, etc. They could add a disclaimer to reduce liability. It then becomes the responsibility of the owner to read this and pay heed.
Your assumption that I'm supposed to have a brain AND some experience AND the knowledge to apply that experience is a false assumption for pretty much any first time tractor owner. I really had very little idea of the potential dangers until I had used my tractor, and I read the manual before I used it. In a similar way, reading about how to use a PTO, or 3 point hitch was pretty meaningless until I had actually used them. Until one of my rear wheels lifted up, I had no real appreciation for the risk, just a general knowledge that it could happen. I could have been badly hurt. Unfortunately, many people die each year from rollovers.
I am extremely grateful to the TBN community and I hope that as I gain experience, I'll be able to contribute as well. It's a wonderful resource, filled with very helpful and knowledgable people.
I realize that people get emotional about issues like this and I'm not trying to start an argument here. I just want to say that I disagree with you about the responsibility of the manufacturer and possibly the dealer. I agree with you and the value of the TBN community.

Well, as you have noted, there seems to be less and less guidance from the manufactures these days. And the reason is litigation. Think of it like this. If they tell you to put a certain weight on the rear, and pretend this is what you should do for all cases, AND a mishap still occurs, and litigation results, then the manufacture will shrink from doing that in the future. Far better for them to use a weasel word like adequate or applicable or some such.

Long story short. Tractors are very dangerous machines. Just like firearms. Yet manufactures still want to sell them, and consumers still want to buy them. Both types of manufactures, and for that matter most manufactures of almost anything are very litigation aware these days. This is a result of unbridled litigation. So they are going to do all they can to protect themselves. As an example they said in the manual to use appropriate ballast. That covers it all right there. And disagreement is fine by the way.

 

[k0ua]

Here is another example of litigation and assigning blame.

Many users hate some or all of the safety switches commonly known as Operator Presence Switches. And example would be the ubiquitous Kubota seat switch. You get up out of the seat and the fuel is shut off to the injector pump. Some people don't like it for various reasons, Some don't weight enough to keep the switch activated over bumps and jolts, some want to stand up to see their forks tips when loading pallets, etc. BUT they come on here and want experienced people like us to tell them how to defeat these systems. Some of us will and some of us won't tell them how to defeat these systems. But for those of us that do, we are taking a risk of litigation. "Well this guy on TBN told me how to defeat the switch and I stood up to stretch my legs and fell off of the tractor while bush hogging, and the bush hog ran over me, and nearly killed me". I am going to SUE that guy for tell me that. OOOKAAY. See how that can go? Another common one is how to defeat the RIO switch on a John Deere riding lawn mower. Get lots of requests for that one. Then the guy backs over and grinds up his 4 year old kid. Happens. Has even happened in our extended family.

So now do you see why a manufacture might just say something like "use appropriate ballast" instead of giving you a number and telling you exactly how to do it? And you follow those instructions to the letter, and still something happens. Your gonna sue. And a jury is probably gonna be more sympathetic to you if you followed a recipe and still something happened, than if the manufacture in effect left it up to your "common sense" to use the appropriate ballast? What do you think? If you are told to "operate the tractor safely at all times" then I don't think they will be as liable in the eyes of a jury as if they tried to give you examples for all cases of tractor operation and you still managed to kill yourself. Of course all of this is just my opinion and you are certainly entitled to yours if it differs.

So operate your very dangerous machine as safely as you can, make an attempt to learn from each mistake, and if you survive, you can go on to help others to survive. Or not.

By the way, do you own any firearms? And if so, how did you learn to operate those very dangerous machines safely? Same goes for pickup trucks.

 

[oosik]

I can see the manufacturers putting ballast graphs in their FEL manual. Just like the lift graphs in my FEL OP manual. I wonder - how many new tractor owner read & understand the lift graphs in their FEL OP manual. That's probably about the same number who would read/understand ballast graphs.

There are just too many variables to consider - beyond raw weight at the end of your 3-point arms.

Too many would take such a graph as the gospel and possibly get in serious trouble.

 

[k0ua]

Too many would take such a graph as the gospel and possibly get in serious trouble.

Yep, there you go. That is the crux of the matter isn't it?

 

[oosik]

And - like we all know - if they are fortunate enough to survive - gonna be a big law suit.

 

[4570Man]

I think backflip could still happen. If tires dig in and top link is still pulling tractor backwards, and 3 point hitch has no down force so it won’t act like wheelie bars, there’s nothing stopping tractor from flipping over.

The 3 point hitch doesn’t have any down force but it has an upward travel limit. The blade has hit the upward travel limits way before a rollover angle has happened.

 

[oosik]

I spent a whole lot of time - thinking, reading, mumbling on rear ballast for my new Kubota M6040 in 2009. I know +/- 50# how much I can lift with my grapple. I know how high I can lift with how much weight - safely. What I don't know is those environmental condition which can instantly modify safe conditions.

I subscribe to the gospel - go low, go slow. I have "knuckle drag marks" all over the 80 acres where I've moved large rock and hunks to pine trunk.

 

[k0ua]

Low and slow beats high and fast for safety each and every time. Even if you pickup something too heavy or are too much of of a slope with that heavy thing, if you keep it low enough it will hit the ground before you turn the tractor over. That has saved me more than once. I have seen so many you tube videos of new tractor owners running around with their buckets up in the air.

 

[ovrszd]

Low and slow beats high and fast for safety each and every time. Even if you pickup something too heavy or are too much of of a slope with that heavy thing, if you keep it low enough it will hit the ground before you turn the tractor over. That has saved me more than once. I have seen so many you tube videos of new tractor owners running around with their buckets up in the air.

I cringe when I see a farmer carrying his FEL high with only a bale prong on. Usually see that when they are using the same tractor to bale hay. No way the empty FEL could ever cause a problem in a relatively flat hay field. But it still gets my attention.

 

[CobyRupert]

The 3 point hitch doesn’t have any down force but it has an upward travel limit. The blade has hit the upward travel limits way before a rollover angle has happened.

Maybe when on flat ground, but you can’t say that when you’re on an incline....which is the original subject the OP is asking about.
There’s also momentum on how fast it’s trying to flip backwards.

 

[CobyRupert]

I cringe when I see a farmer carrying his FEL high with only a bale prong on. Usually see that when they are using the same tractor to bale hay. No way the empty FEL could ever cause a problem in a relatively flat hay field. But it still gets my attention.

I cringe when I hear the term “no way....could it ever...”.
Just when you think you’ve got all the dangers figured out Mother Nature (or Mr. Murphy) proves they’re an ***hole and knows more tricks than you or I could ever think of.
Example: Flat hay field.....but if you don’t see that 1/2” power pole guide wire....

 

[pmsmechanic]

I cringe when I see a farmer carrying his FEL high with only a bale prong on. Usually see that when they are using the same tractor to bale hay. No way the empty FEL could ever cause a problem in a relatively flat hay field. But it still gets my attention.

Most farmers that I know, that do this, it's for visibility reasons. That doesn't make it smart or right. I would just as soon take the loader right off the tractor. Most newer loaders come off quite quickly. If I'm doing any job and the loader gets in the way it get's parked. I can take mine off in about a minute and about a little longer to put back on. I don't get guys who leave their loaders on all the time as the tractor is so much more nimble without it. Think of it as an attachment just like on the three point. When your done with the attachment take it off and park it.

 

[WranglerX]

This discussion is probably at a end point as OP is never going to be convinced ballast is going to save his life.... IF he is operating on a hill where he fears a back flip obviously to rest of us he should not be on that hill, to him, he has not had a really good BUTT PUCKER experience to enlighten him.... Didn't take me more than one or two seat grabs (butt puckers) to make it obvious ballast (and wheel spaces) made tractor safer....

Dale

 

[4570Man]

Maybe when on flat ground, but you can’t say that when you’re on an incline....which is the original subject the OP is asking about.
There’s also momentum on how fast it’s trying to flip backwards.

Even on the unlikely event you managed flip backwards with a box blade on which I highly doubt is even possible it would have happened way sooner without the blade. The blade is moving the fulcrum backwards several feet.

 

[ovrszd]

Most farmers that I know, that do this, it's for visibility reasons. That doesn't make it smart or right. I would just as soon take the loader right off the tractor. Most newer loaders come off quite quickly. If I'm doing any job and the loader gets in the way it get's parked. I can take mine off in about a minute and about a little longer to put back on. I don't get guys who leave their loaders on all the time as the tractor is so much more nimble without it. Think of it as an attachment just like on the three point. When your done with the attachment take it off and park it.

Let me clarify. I understand leaving the FEL on. I also understand raising it when baling. It just looks weird.

The farmer may bale hay today and haul bales this afternoon with the same tractor. In those cases removing the FEL to bale would be wasted time.

 

[Henro]

I am wondering if anyone who thinks the current level of safety interlocks is gospel, might change their thinking if tractor manufacturers add an interlock to disable movement in reverse if a PTO is engaged.

I understand some lawn/garden tractors have such an interlock.

I feel fortunate that my tractors are older now and have only the basic, important interlocks. Must be in neutral (if no clutch) or clutch pushed in, PTO must not be engaged, and directional pedal centered. That is about it...

 

[Reb954]

Maybe when on flat ground, but you can稚 say that when youæ±*e on an incline....which is the original subject the OP is asking about.
Thereç—´ also momentum on how fast itç—´ trying to flip backwards.

If a tractor with a rear box blade flips over backwards, you can rest assured the box blade was not a contributing factor to the rollover.