got a water well problem

[valley]

Hi, We went to check out the lower ranch and found the water hadn't been on for several days.

There was power to the pressure switch and it was buzzing and burned, I put in a new pressure switch and it began to buzz. The capacitor looks good in the control box, the pump will not run or pump water.

Got any thoughts or recognize the problem?

Thanks Richard

 

[Valveman]

The capacitor may "look good", but I would not pull the pump until I tried a new control box or at least a new capacitor and start relay. You should also make sure you have 240V not just 115 volts going to the pump. But the problem is very common. The pump has been cycling on and off so much that it destroyed the pressure switch, start cap, and/or start relay. Those are just signs that you are cycling the motor to death, which has most likely already happened.

 

[valley]

Greetings Valveman, thanks for coming by. I have 240 to the pressure switch. If the capacitor was bad, would that cause the switch to just buzz and burn?
As far as cycling, I didn't check to see if the bladder was bad in the tank. Never seen this type of thing with the switch.

 

[Valveman]

Greetings Valveman, thanks for coming by. I have 240 to the pressure switch. If the capacitor was bad, would that cause the switch to just buzz and burn?
As far as cycling, I didn't check to see if the bladder was bad in the tank. Never seen this type of thing with the switch.

Yeah the switch is buzzing a burning because the pump is pulling locked rotor (high) amps. The capacitor and relay being bad makes the motor draw high amperage and trip the overload.

The bladder in the tank does not have to be bad to cause cycling to destroy the pump. Even with a good bladder in the tank, the pump can cycle on/off every minute or two, and there are 1440 minutes in a day. The bladder in the tank gets destroyed from the "normal" cycling every minute or two, which flexes the bladder until it tears. Then when the bladder is torn, the pump can cycle every couple of seconds instead of every couple of minutes, so the start relay, capacitor, pressure switch, and even the pump/motor are next on the hit list.

 

[dickfoster]

Hi, We went to check out the lower ranch and found the water hadn't been on for several days.

There was power to the pressure switch and it was buzzing and burned, I put in a new pressure switch and it began to buzz. The capacitor looks good in the control box, the pump will not run or pump water.

Got any thoughts or recognize the problem?

Thanks Richard

Well it's been dry so your well hasn't gone dry has it? Lots have around here lately.
Your protection circuit shouldn't allow the pump run if it's dry so something is up with that. Maybe you'll have to pull the pump anyway. Hope it's not a deep one and it's hanging on poly pipe. Then it's an easy pull. If it's hanging on steel then things get a bit more complicated and more expensive. Maybe the pump took a dump, they'll do that ya know.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Yeah the switch is buzzing a burning because the pump is pulling locked rotor (high) amps. The capacitor and relay being bad makes the motor draw high amperage and trip the overload.

The bladder in the tank does not have to be bad to cause cycling to destroy the pump. Even with a good bladder in the tank, the pump can cycle on/off every minute or two, and there are 1440 minutes in a day. The bladder in the tank gets destroyed from the "normal" cycling every minute or two, which flexes the bladder until it tears. Then when the bladder is torn, the pump can cycle every couple of seconds instead of every couple of minutes, so the start relay, capacitor, pressure switch, and even the pump/motor are next on the hit list.

Pls sketch out the conditions were a pump with good bladder tank would cycle every minute or two.

 

[Valveman]

Pls sketch out the conditions were a pump with good bladder tank would cycle every minute or two.

A 20 GPM pump with a 40 gallon size tank (10 gallon draw), with a faucet or sprinkler running at 10 GPM. The pump would produce 20 GPM. 10 GPM goes to the sprinkler while the other 10 GPM goes to the tank. 1 minute of run time, the pressure will be at 60 and the pump will go off. 1 minute of off time and the 10 GPM sprinkler will have drained the tank to 40 PSI, and the pump cycles on again. This is not uncommon and would result in 720 cycles per day. Double the size of pressure tank and it would cut the cycling to 360 times a day and so on.

With a scenario like that a constant pressure system would only cycle the pump once per day, regardless of the tank size.

 

[SPYDERLK]

A 20 GPM pump with a 40 gallon size tank (10 gallon draw), with a faucet or sprinkler running at 10 GPM. The pump would produce 20 GPM. 10 GPM goes to the sprinkler while the other 10 GPM goes to the tank. 1 minute of run time, the pressure will be at 60 and the pump will go off. 1 minute of off time and the 10 GPM sprinkler will have drained the tank to 40 PSI, and the pump cycles on again. This is not uncommon and would result in 720 cycles per day. Double the size of pressure tank and it would cut the cycling to 360 times a day and so on.

With a scenario like that a constant pressure system would only cycle the pump once per day, regardless of the tank size.

It is uncommon to set up a system that stupidly.

 

[wawoodwa]

I've had the same symptoms. Mine was the run cap shorted. Happened a few times before the ole 1976 Franklin gave up 2 years ago. If you have a ohm meter, and with the cap disconnected from the circuit on both legs, run an ohm meter between the terminals. I would bet it would show continuity with high resistance. Can do the same with the start cap to test it too.

 

[Valveman]

It is uncommon to set up a system that stupidly.

Oh I fully agree, but it is very common as I see it all the time. Even so it is hard to set up a system where every demand matches the output of the pump. I don't know how many times I have told customers that they have a 10 GPM, and they should never to use less than 10 GPM for any long term water use. "Yeah yeah sure sure" they will say. Then they are mad at me 18 months or 3 years later when the pump quits. Only to find out they have been running a 2 GPM drip system 24/7, or they have one of those tractor sprinklers (that only puts out about 3 GPM), with 500' of garden hose tied in knots around the apple tree.

With a constant pressure system they can run a 2 GPM drip system or a 3 GPM sprinkler without cycling the pump to death. And a constant pressure system is the best way to control a pump when you have a 2-3 stage heat pump, or varying irrigation demands. With this type system you don't have to make every zone match the pump, you can make the zones match the requirement of the yard. You can still have a 10 GPM zone in the back yard, but you can safely run a 7 GPM zone in the side yard and a 3 GPM drip down the tree line on the drive way. In this way it can even be a water saving device, as you don't have to use 10 GPM all the time just to keep the pump happy.

 

[Egon]

I've had the same symptoms. Mine was the run cap shorted. Happened a few times before the ole 1976 Franklin gave up 2 years ago. If you have a ohm meter, and with the cap disconnected from the circuit on both legs, run an ohm meter between the terminals. I would bet it would show continuity with high resistance. Can do the same with the start cap to test it too.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[STx]

I'm a licensed irrigator in Texas, designing to the pump on well systems was always the goal but proper hydrozoning almost never made it possible. Any system I put on a well got a shiny new Cycle Stop Valve installed as well. I've seen irrigation systems on wells that short-cycled the pump constantly (not mine) and the first thing I would suggest was adding a Cycle Stop. Sometimes they'd agree, other times not. The ones that didn't usually ended up with a burned up pump before too long. The ones that did had already replaced a pump or two and knew I was being honest.

 

[Valveman]

I'm a licensed irrigator in Texas, designing to the pump on well systems was always the goal but proper hydrozoning almost never made it possible. Any system I put on a well got a shiny new Cycle Stop Valve installed as well. I've seen irrigation systems on wells that short-cycled the pump constantly (not mine) and the first thing I would suggest was adding a Cycle Stop. Sometimes they'd agree, other times not. The ones that didn't usually ended up with a burned up pump before too long. The ones that did had already replaced a pump or two and knew I was being honest.

:thumbsup:

 

[valley]

Well, Valveman, Gota thank you, on the way out to the lower ranch wife and I picked up a 1hp pump and a control box. When we got there I got out of van and walked over to the pit, took the top off the control box (a Franklin) and put the new top or face (utilitech) fit perfect. Wifey threw the breaker an on came the water. I opened the valve to the bladder, on the pressure tank and out came water, so tomorrow I'll pick up a pressure tank and install it.

I was pretty sure the Capacitor was good until your post, Thank you may the Lord bless you and your loved ones.

Richard

 

[valley]

Valveman, If I install a Cycle Stop Valve, can I use a 20 gal pressure tank or must/should I get a say 5 gal tank?

Thank you

Richard

 

[Valveman]

You can use any size tank you want with a CSV. A 20 gallon tank only holds 5 gallons of water and would not be large enough without a CSV. But when you have a CSV a 4.5 gallon tank is really all you need.

 

[valley]

Greetings Valveman, Thanks for taking the time to post.

We've three properties with wells.. I've looked at the CSVs and think the CSV12560 might serve our needs,(look non adjustable)

These can, I'm guessing, be installed outside the well casing and horizontal? Is that 5gal tank they use with a CSV a bladder tank?


Richard

 

[Valveman]

As long as the max pressure of the pump is less than 150 psi, the CSV125 will work fine.

And diaphragm tanks are better than bladder tanks.

 

[Raspy]

Seems much better to use a large unpressurized tank that the well pump simply fills. Then the tank water gravity flows to a pressure pump, with pressure tank, that supplies the house. This is what I have and my well cycles about once every other day. The well does not have to supply house pressure and I have reserve water for power failures or well failures.

I built a controller that manages it all. Really a very simple design.

 

[Valveman]

Seems much better to use a large unpressurized tank that the well pump simply fills. Then the tank water gravity flows to a pressure pump, with pressure tank, that supplies the house. This is what I have and my well cycles about once every other day. The well does not have to supply house pressure and I have reserve water for power failures or well failures.

I built a controller that manages it all. Really a very simple design.

You still need a Cycle Stop Valve on the booster pump, as that is now the one that cycles on and off to supply the house. What you have makes a good system, but there are as many cons to a storage tank as there are pros. I wouldn't use a storage tank unless it was necessary. And if you use a CSV on the well pump, it will no longer fail from cycling to death.

With a storage tank you have to pump the same water twice. You need twice as many pumps and components, have twice as many components to fail, and you will use twice as much electricity. If the well pump fails you only have a day or two in storage, so you still have to get the well pump fixed as soon as possible anyway. If the booster pump fails, you have to draw water from the storage tank with a bucket.

Pumping directly from the well the water is always fresh. It hasn't been sitting in a tank exposed to heat, air, and other things that can cause contamination.

If the well will not make enough flow for peak demands, if the well is 500'+ deep and takes a while to get serviced, or the water needs to be treated in some way, then I would consider a cistern storage tank. Otherwise there are many benefits to pumping directly from the well as long as you eliminate pump cycling from the equation.