Buying Advice First CUT: Sizing and Used Options

[FreedomFamilyFarms]

Hello TBN!

I've been reading a long time and getting close to purchasing my first CUT. I plan to purchase used and would like any advice or strategy for locating the perfect used machine. I'd entertain new as well if the savings on a used machine are negligible.

I am building a home that will be completed in November on 17 1/2 acres. We have a 1000 ft white rock driveway I will maintain with the tractor as well as snow removal in the winter. My home is in the 46706 zip code and we can get up to a foot of snow overnight here (unusual, but possible). 10 acres are wooded and I want to clear a couple trails and maintain them. I also have the ability to heat my home entirely with cord wood so I'll be moving wood around with the tractor.

I plan to keep a small lawn (1 acre or less). I have a Toro Z Master ZTR that my wife likes to use so there's no need for a finish mower on the tractor. However, I plan to flail mow the areas outside of the lawn. The Caroni flail mower discussed on this site seems perfect for my needs.

I split as much wood by hand as I can but some wood is just too unruly for a maul so a 3 point mounted hydraulic splitter is on my wish list. The TSC model (~$700) seems adequate for my needs.

My brother lives 2 counties away and I'd like to be able to trailer the machine occasionally with a half-ton pickup. My dream setup is a Ram Ecodiesel with a dump trailer I can haul the tractor with. I'll need to play the lottery more often to achieve this, but its good to have vision just in case. I have a single axle trailer and half-ton pickup now. Food for thought, one of the local Kubota dealers is also a PJ trailer dealer...

Must Haves:
- SSQA loader & pallet forks
- HST (Want the wife and kid(s) to be comfortable on it)
- Means of snow removal: Loader might be fine most of the time, want 3 point blower for deep/heavy snow
- R4 tires


Wish List:
- Rear remote(s) for splitter, future power beyond
- Bucket spade
- Ratchet rake
- Friend or neighbor with a rototiller I can borrow (won't need one often enough to own it)
- Flail mower
- Box blade

We have many local dealerships. Kubota, John Deere, Massey Ferguson, LS (Bobcat dealer), & Mahindra are all a quick drive from my home. I also have a Cub Cadet dealership around the corner I've done business with that will work on "anything that fits through the overhead door". He doesn't sell CUTs so I can't buy a Yanmar from him. I've had equipment serviced by both the local Kubota dealer and the local Mahindra dealer just to see how their service departments perform. Both were easy to work with. My experience with the local Deere dealership has been less than impressive. I've purchased a Honda generator and a Stihl chainsaw from them and they seem to feel it's my privilege to shop there. I've called the Massey dealer to work on my ZTR but their service dept. is always 4 or more weeks behind.

I'm thinking for my needs I'm looking at roughly 30 HP. I could get by with smaller, but I plan to take the sage TBN advice that tractors get smaller when you get them home. I'm not loyal to any brand but I'll admit I have an affinity for orange paint.

With this information in mind, where should I start my search? Is it worth my time to price new then look for used as a comparison? What are the best venues for used sales? I'm willing to be patient and travel to acquire the right machine for the right price.

Thanks in advance!

 

[jeff9366]

Here are used tractors for sale on eBay, those closest to zip code 46706 first:

Tractors | eBay



Nice Kubota: Kubota M5040 Tractor 4WD LA1153 Front Loader Skid Steer Mount 475 Hours Nice | eBay

Specs Kubota M5040: TractorData.com Kubota M5040 tractor information


VERY FINE FIRST POST.

 

[KennyG]

I think you are on target to look at 30 to 35 HP if you can. Since you are not mowing and with the amount of property you have, weight is an advantage. The only downside is you will probably be looking at a trailer upgrade if you only have a single axle trailer now. Sorry to hear your JD dealer is not friendly - it's probably important to work with a dealer who's interested in working with you.

 

[nybirdman]

Something along the lines of a "L" series Kubota,30+or - HP,3,000lbs,4WD.The L2501 has been popular because of no DEF.Sounds like it is down rated but has a lot of HP for the size.
With only a chance of one foot or less of snow a rear blade would suffice and could be used for other projects.
Lots of completion in this segment of tractors;I would purchase from what dealer you are comfortable.

 

[gladehound]

Obviously many options to choose from and you've done your reading... Just three comments for now...

- Snow blower - do you really need one. I see it sitting most the time and as previous poster mentioned, a foot of snow isn't much. You will need a rear blade or box blade to maintain your drive. If you get the rear blade that's your snow solution also. Then get yourself a big mulch bucket and use that for wood, mulch, snow. That and a rear blade and you have two attachments that are useful for a lot of things and combined cost less than a snow blower that will sit most of the time.

- Pallet forks - hard to beat the bang for buck! A must have. However, keep in mind that things get heavy fast when way out on pallet forks, loader specs are important and there is a lot of variation in loader spec among ~30 hp CUTS. If you up to 40hp or down to 25hp you can get a hug range in loader capability. Be mindful of what you want to pick up and note that you may not be able to lift a pallet off the ground that weighs less than your loaders rated max height lift at the pins. Size accordingly.

- HST - wonderful - but a budget killer. If you are dead set on HST than get it. Just know that you can get real deals on gear tractors on the used market. My daughter could operate my hydro reverser well enough at 9 yo to load implements on trailers. So it's not like your family can't learn something other than HST. I got a dealer demo 45hp with hydraulic reverser tranny for $4000 less than a similar 40hp with HST from the same dealer.

Definitely get prices on new tractors before shopping used! (Ok, that was 4)

 

[4570Man]

I really like my HST. I was pretty decent on the old L2550 by the time I was 15. HST is easier to use though. You didn't mention needing to make any heavy lifts. Obviously the more the better, but it seems like you'll be able to make do with any loader offered in the size range. The heavier the tractor the better. I'd wouldn't have anything but R4 tires, but that's a personal opinion that gets pretty personal around here.

 

[DieselBound]

PTO log splitter - they're not very fast; I thought about this but decided to go with a dedicated splitter- I can move it around with my Polaris and split, then pick up with the the tractor (I use palletized wire crates and move around with pallet forks on the tractor [going to be getting a larger tractor than my 30hp B7800 because it can't stack the crates]).

If you have to do a lot of maneuvering in the woods then an HST would be a big plus. With HST I literally let off the travel pedal and start jumping off the tractor before it's even stopped (which it'll do): my Polaris Brutus is also an HST and the same with it- I can start bailing out before it's come to a complete stop.

Assess how you're going to create trails. Much of the work might be possible with rented machinery.

Ballast in the rears. Tooth bar on the bucket. Life would have been much better for me had I done these two things from the start (tooth bar was like 2 years after having the tractor, and ballast was like 4 years!).

 

[newbury]

Like jeff wrote - pretty good first post.
Questions -
What's your terrain like?
How big are your trees? Mature 150' tall oaks 5' in DBH or 30 year old 20' tall one foot DBH? Try take a SWAG to figure out the max you need to lift with a FEL (include a safety factor) using a grapple or forks. Here's a calculator for log weight. But basically an 8' oak log 24" in diameter will be around 1600 lbs.
What are your wrenching skills? If you can do some moderate maintenance a used tractor may not be as frustrating.
And directly connected to this how much do you want to spend on the whole shebang (including maintenance and repair)?

Right now we may be at a cusp in new versus used tractors cost. With interest rates at rock bottom it actually is not a bad time to buy new and get that new tractor smell, warrantee and service.
Especially if you don't have wrenching skills.

A tractor is not like a passenger car. If a passenger car breaks down it will probably be very near a road. If your out busting a new trail half a mile back in the woods and you tear off a hydraulic line your tractor may be down for a while. If you can handle swapping out the line a repair might be only a day or so, but if it's not driveable and you can't fix it yourself it will often take a while to get somebody out there.

I've bought two used since I always have other uses for my money.

 

[4570Man]

Like jeff wrote - pretty good first post. Questions - What's your terrain like? How big are your trees? Mature 150' tall oaks 5' in DBH or 30 year old 20' tall one foot DBH? Try take a SWAG to figure out the max you need to lift with a FEL (include a safety factor) using a grapple or forks. Here's a calculator for log weight. But basically an 8' oak log 24" in diameter will be around 1600 lbs. What are your wrenching skills? If you can do some moderate maintenance a used tractor may not be as frustrating. And directly connected to this how much do you want to spend on the whole shebang (including maintenance and repair)? Right now we may be at a cusp in new versus used tractors cost. With interest rates at rock bottom it actually is not a bad time to buy new and get that new tractor smell, warrantee and service. Especially if you don't have wrenching skills. A tractor is not like a passenger car. If a passenger car breaks down it will probably be very near a road. If your out busting a new trail half a mile back in the woods and you tear off a hydraulic line your tractor may be down for a while. If you can handle swapping out the line a repair might be only a day or so, but if it's not driveable and you can't fix it yourself it will often take a while to get somebody out there. I've bought two used since I always have other uses for my money.

If you can't handle swapping out a hydraulic hose you better hire out the trail building.

 

[DieselBound]

Here's the kind of stuff you can expect. About 1/4 mile from home, blazing a new trail. Salmon berry cane snapped up an went inside the tractor's center channel (not a big target) and slipped back and managed to pop the hose right off the pipe! Was "dead in the water." And I'd been circling back toward the house, which meant I had to pull the tractor out through uncut brush, which included a couple of large logs: wife and I took machetes and a chainsaw. Pulled it back home with the truck.



I couldn't see any of this out in the brush. And even when back home it took me a while to figure out what had happened. With a bigger tractor these kinds of things get more expensive: more fluid loss possible!

 

[varmint]

I thought your first post was great! And I thought you were right on about the pallet forks, SSQA, 30-35HP and HST. Not so sure about the snow blower. Messy, bad with gravel, and for a foot of snow, un-needed. A rear blade will work, but a front blade, with SSQA and hydraulic angling (from that rear power beyond) is just ideal, you can see what you're doing, and don't get covered with blown snow. That works so much nicer than a rear blade, and is fine for a stone drive.

I also think a stand alone splitter is the way to go. CUT's just don't have the flow to operate a splitter, and tying up the tractor is a waste. Dirty Hands makes some fine splitters for the money, and not having to lift a log is good. I split around 4 cords a year, using an old tow-behind generic 35 ton gas powered splitter that a neighbor loans me, and it is hard to beat. Something with a conveyor belt and power this and that would be nice, but...

The comments about a tooth bar and filled R-4's are good ones.

I am not an ace mechanic, but having purchased three used Kubotas, using them, and NEVER having had any issues that I couldn't readily take care of on my own leads me to suggest shopping for used, at the same time you cruise the dealerships. Your observation about your Deere dealer matches my experience... which is why I have Echo chainsaws, and a Husquvarna trimmer, and not Stihl. And a Kubota.

 

[KennyG]

Your observation about your Deere dealer matches my experience... which is why I have Echo chainsaws, and a Husquvarna trimmer, and not Stihl. And a Kubota.

Based on the comments we have seen there appear to be two distinct types of JD dealers. Virtually all Deere dealers have a core "big tractor business" and some don't seem interested in the CUT/Lawn equipment segment. I'm lucky. My dealer is part of a big multi-dealership company and sells a lot of the 6 figure plus machines. However, when I do call them or drop in for something, they fall all over themselves helping me. When I was buying, the salesman spent time with me and went through all the details just like I was buying a 200 HP tractor. There are different ways to run a business and individual dealers decide how to do it. By the way, this Deere dealer is a Stihl dealer also. :confused3:

 

[motownbrowne]

Welcome aboard!! As others have said, great intro and first post. It is interesting to me, however that several responses seem not to have read all of it. Guys, he listed HST as a need. He wants to put his wife and kids on it. I think HST in this application is a GREAT choice. Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

When I was shopping for my Kubota, I looked for about 6 months on the used market and didn't find anything that struck me as a good deal for me. I wanted HST our hydraulic shuttle (that's before I knew how important HST is), I needed ag tires, and I wanted a 4wd tractor with a loader. Now in my case, the tire requirement killed a lot of possible deals, but what i noticed while shopping was that for HST tractors with loaders less than 20 years, the price just wasn't much less than new machines.

I think you're spot on in your search requirements. I didn't see your budget listed, but maybe I skimmed that part. What I know from researching tractors for a friend of mine recently is that in the Kubota lineup, the l2501 looks very appealing right now. It's a mid sized CUT with a low HP rating to avoid emissions equipment. It makes PTO HP at about 600-800 less rpm than most other tractors. People are bringing these home with a couple of implements and a loader for around $20k. Yes, it's got less HP than might be ideal, but you don't list anything that's real HP intensive in your task list except a snow blower, but you can still run a blower just fine but a little slower than with more HP. I'd look hard at the 2501. If it feels too small or light, the next one to look at is the MX4800. Twice the HP, twice the loader lift, less than twice the price.

If you look at the 2501, check out the Kioti ck2610 also. It's a direct competitor and quite a bit cheaper. Kubota is offering much better financing right now, though, so if you want to finance, the Kubota will probably be cheaper overall. That financing is 0% for 84 months, by the way. That too makes used machines quite a bit less appealing. I know it's all smoke and mirrors, but when I called my local dealer for a quote on the 2501, he said the cash price was only a few hundred less than the 0% finance price...

Good luck shopping, and let us know what you end up with!!

 

[FreedomFamilyFarms]

jeff9366- Thanks for the sweet eBay search. I’ve been eyeballing Craigslist awhile (searching for HST is handy as the string is rather unique to tractors) but I didn’t realize how many tractors are available on eBay.

KennyG- I’d say 2 of every 3 CUTs I see around here are green. There is another dealer a couple counties south (Troxel) I’ve heard good things about. I’ll give them a chance to sell me a green one.

nybirdman- I’ve seen a few other threads mentioning the L2501 and other colors with similar setups (just shy of EPA regs) that seem underrated. Will definitely keep those in mind.

gladehound- The blower can definitely be downgraded to a “nice to have”. The driveway is mostly east/west with about 150 feet running north/south. The north/south section is the last stop across an open field to the west (prevailing wind in this area). That’s the place that concerns me enough for a blower. But, I can pile it with the loader if we drift...

DieselBound- The maneuverability is exactly why I want the HST. I have a little Simplicity with a blade on the front of it now and my right shoulder hurts after I run it for an hour from shifting back and fourth from forward to reverse. The trails I’ll be working on are already cut, they just need some attention after a few years of neglect. Tooth bar and ballast seem very useful, adding to the list.

newbury- terrain is mostly flat with some rolling hills. Trees are roughly 50 years old, lots of hickory, oak. Most are less than 24” DBH right now. I’m pretty handy but don’t really want a tractor that needs more than basic maintenance. I want a tool that dependably saves me time. If I get in a pinch I can manage most tasks and have the tools to do so.

varmint- I’m intrigued by the hydraulic angling blade on the SSQA. What would a setup like that run? I also have neighbors with splitters and have considered just piling the nasty logs and borrowing a splitter once or twice a year to bust em’.

motownbrowne- Budget is a moving target. Building one house (2 months left) and selling another means there are a lot of hungry mouths all wanting a bite of my tractor budget. I’m hoping to have ~$18,000 to spend for the tractor and all implements, hence the plan to shop used. No way I can pull off a new tractor plus the implements I’m hoping for on that budget. I took a look at Kioti’s site and there is a dealer about 2 hours from here. I’ll have to give them a look if the savings is significant. Their CK3510HST looks excellent.

Clearly I have some shopping to do. As the budget gets firmer, I’ll post back with some options. Thanks for the advice TBN!

 

[MrFoPow]

Something along the lines of a "L" series Kubota,30+or - HP,3,000lbs,4WD.The L2501 has been popular because of no DEF.Sounds like it is down rated but has a lot of HP for the size.
With only a chance of one foot or less of snow a rear blade would suffice and could be used for other projects.
Lots of completion in this segment of tractors;I would purchase from what dealer you are comfortable.

All the other L series tractors do not have DEF either.

I'd guess any L series Kubota would meet your needs.
Only reason I had to go with the L4701 was for the extra FEL lift capacity.

 

[varmint]

V-head... as for the front plow, if I remember right, I bought a HLA (Horst Welding, operating in Ontario) 78" plow with hydraulics for around $2000. I didn't shop, simply went with the dealer's recommendations when I bought the used L3130. They installed disconnect couplings on one circuit of the loader's lines, which worked for angling, but I lost the tilt function.

On the current L3400, I spent another $100 or so for fittings and hoses to run to the forward left loader arm. I can easily unplug the plow, and should I get a grapple, I am good to go, or I can unplug the hoses at the rear, and plug in whatever at the rear remotes. Unlike blowers, plows don't require maintenance beyond touch up paint, and should hold their value. One good feature is the ability to push snow up and over, using the loader/plow, so piles can be 6-7' high as needed. I found that the regular loader, with a normal bucket, just didn't move enough snow to be useful.
I did try a 3-point splitter once, and it just bugged me to have a 30hp tractor cranking to split, and not that fast, either. I do use the tractor, to pull a trailer loaded with spit wood to where I will be stacking it. Not a place where I would want to drive a truck.

 

[jeff9366]

I also have neighbors with splitters and have considered just piling the nasty logs and borrowing a splitter once or twice a year to bust em.

Home Depot and Lowe's sell 110 V electric log splitters beginning at $300.

Faster, 220 V electric log splitters cost more.

110 volt log splitter | eBay

 

[jeff9366]

nybirdman- I致e seen a few other threads mentioning the L2501 and other colors with similar setups (just shy of EPA regs) that seem underrated. Will definitely keep those in mind.

Budget is a moving target. I’m hoping to have ~$18,000 to spend for the tractor and all implements, hence the plan to shop used.

L2501 is a fine, light tractor. Real world price with HST is $18-19,000, without the options you listed.

You would probably be happier with this one if you made an offer for $19,000 which was accepted:
Kubota M5040 Tractor 4WD LA1153 Front Loader Skid Steer Mount 475 Hours Nice | eBay

For sale is a very nice Kubota M5040 Tractor equipped with, 4WD, Kubota LA1153 Quick attach front loader with skid steer mount bucket, 50HP Kubota diesel engine, Shuttle Shift transmission, 3rd valve on front end loader (auxiliary hydraulics), 1 rear remote, 3PT, PTO and only 475 hours.

FURTHER ~ T-B-N ARCHIVE: M5040 site:tractorbynet.com - Google Search

This one is optioned the way you want it and has low hours. This is a pre-Tier IV tractor without the stringent/complex emission controls.

Not far from you. Go kick the tires.

 

[motownbrowne]

L2501 is a fine, light tractor. Real world price with HST is $18-19,000, without the options you listed.

You would probably be happier with this one if you made an offer for $19,000 which was accepted:
Kubota M5040 Tractor 4WD LA1153 Front Loader Skid Steer Mount 475 Hours Nice | eBay

For sale is a very nice Kubota M5040 Tractor equipped with, 4WD, Kubota LA1153 Quick attach front loader with skid steer mount bucket, 50HP Kubota diesel engine, Shuttle Shift transmission, 3rd valve on front end loader (auxiliary hydraulics), 1 rear remote, 3PT, PTO and only 475 hours.

FURTHER ~ T-B-N ARCHIVE: M5040 site:tractorbynet.com - Google Search

This one is optioned the way you want it and has low hours. This is a pre-Tier IV tractor without the stringent/complex emission controls.

Not far from you. Go kick the tires.

Jeff, it's way out of budget and doesn't have any implements except a loader. It's also NOT hydrostatic. I don't know how you can say it's optioned the way he wants it.

The 2501 is lighter, yes. It's still a very heavy 25 HP tractor. It too is not subject to emissions controls (other than maybe an EGR valve.

A little exercise of the search function should pull up some recent threads with OPs bringing home a hydrostatic 2501 with a loader, and two other implements for right around 20k. It's less tractor than a 5040, but it's new, has a warranty, comes with implements and financing for less than a used gear shift 5040.

Kick the tires, for sure, but take another look at why you want a tractor before you bring home a Utility Tractor, which is what an M5040 is.

 

[FreedomFamilyFarms]

Thanks for all the thoughts on the splitter. Let me clarify and see it this changes your opinion. I'm the fastest splitter for most wood. I can cut a round in less than a minute with a Fiskars X27 or my Council Tool maul and a spare tire splitting rig. Its the mean, knotty, nasty pieces I'd use the splitter for. I've had pretty good luck so far moving the wood in rounds (a loader would do a fine job at this since I can scoot rounds into the bucket at ground level) then splitting next to the woodshed so I'm not handling individual pieces more than a couple times. The splitter would only come out when I have an hour or more of the nasties to work through and speed isn't as important as raw power for this application. Would a ~30 HP CUT give me the hydraulic pressure I need for the splitter to break these up? All the specs on the splitter rely on the tractor itself.

Another question about dealer location. Based on some of the comments above, I checked into Kioti dealers. There is one about 90 minutes from my place. I called this weekend just for fun (thinking I'd rule them out) and priced a CK3510HST with R4s, loader, and 2 rear remotes over the phone. 34.9 HP (28 at PTO), HST, 11.7 gpm hydraulics, weighs in at 2,734 pounds without the loader. I was quoted $18,675 plus tax for the whole shebang new with warranty. I'm thinking I couldn't touch a Kubota, Deere, or Mahindra with those specs for anything near that price. Can anyone with recent Kioti experience chime in?