New electrical panel question

[Zerk]

200 amp square D with the built in generator transfer switch. Cost very little extra when changing out the panel anyways.

Good idea getting transfer switch. What stops people from doing it legit is having to have connect it up.

Also I think some of surge arrestors are hooked up between panel and meter. I have never done one.

 

[ultrarunner]

Lots of panel changes around here with so many going to solar.

The original panels have a split main 125 amp service... and must be changed when a permit is pulled.

The 125 amp drops are OK for 200 amp service and the electricians all work with the live circuit.

Solar City is doing a lot of the installs... the electrician comes out the day ahead to upgrade the service and the next day the crew comes in to install the panels... two day jobs are the standard... waiting for the utility to cut and start service means lost time.

I've done about a dozen service upgrades to home pre WWII... all had single 30 amp edison fuse main with a knife switch... went to 100 amp 220 as this is the minimum now required for single family... so going from a total of 30 120v to 100 amp 220... also the service drop stays the same... about 30 years ago the utilities upgraded all the service drops street by street.

I'm all electric in Washington State and have a 400 amp service dating from 1978

 

[newbury]

Complete hack or a total cheapskate looking to save a few pennies with salvaged equipment, wire and other parts (describes my first house). Back to the OP though I think the difference in opinion was in whether to opt for 200a vs. staying with 100a. Utilities around here will now inspect the service entrance for code before they plug the meter back in. Perhaps there are some "sparkies" out there that would attempt a panel change with live wires...not for me...

Don't you live in Wisconsin?
How come the same guy that did your first house in Wisconsin did my workshops in Mississippi??

And on my first house when I had the electric upgraded by a fully licensed and inspected electrician in Fairfax County, Va the guy just put down rubber mat, wore rubber boots and gloves, and pulled and replaced the meter live. That was about 40 years ago.

 

[2ndhalf]

Don't you live in Wisconsin?
How come the same guy that did your first house in Wisconsin did my workshops in Mississippi??

And on my first house when I had the electric upgraded by a fully licensed and inspected electrician in Fairfax County, Va the guy just put down rubber mat, wore rubber boots and gloves, and pulled and replaced the meter live. That was about 40 years ago.

Pretty sure that same guy came to Ohio and did my first old farm :laughing:house too.. That guy gets around

 

[Zerk]

Utility workers work on energized lines all the time. You just have to know how to do it safely.

 

[techman]

200 amp is a small charge more, but gives you capacity of extra circuits and expand ability for the future. Unless your existing service is 100 amps, you will need a new service entrance anyway, and again the difference is not that great between 100 and 200 amps.

 

[newbury]

Utility workers work on energized lines all the time. You just have to know how to do it safely.

I know how to do it safely, I use plastic and telephone line.
That's a credit card and phone a licensed electrician

 

[teejk]

Utility workers work on energized lines all the time. You just have to know how to do it safely.

The guy that got the service up to code works for the utility and he had the "meter tags" to let him pull the meter and work dead (faster and safer). Apparently the meter socket is sized to the incoming service so that part was ok...was just the wire into the building that was undersized. Left over scraps used on the original build I guess (had a lot of that stuff on that Wisconsin house). Our new Wisconsin house I built...no cheating there! My inspector was cut no slack on anything (not that I would want to do that on service electrical or plumbing anyway...that's a "pay me now or pay me later" proposition involving the 2 systems that I don't want any issues with).

 

[erda]

Just to respond with a bit more detail.

The "old" power came into the house via an overhead line from the utility pole. We are changing that to underground to "clean things up a bit". As a result it's an easy thing to make sure that everything is upgraded to handle 200 amp service after it leaves the utility pole. There is an attached garage on the house. There is also a separate garage/workshop that was built and wired in the late '80s. It's feed comes directly off the utility pole via an overhead line that will remain-it only travels a short distance and is out of the way.

Great idea to add the generator switch. We had been thinking about that, although the generator is still just a thought.

 

[dickfoster]

Just to respond with a bit more detail.

The "old" power came into the house via an overhead line from the utility pole. We are changing that to underground to "clean things up a bit". As a result it's an easy thing to make sure that everything is upgraded to handle 200 amp service after it leaves the utility pole. There is an attached garage on the house. There is also a separate garage/workshop that was built and wired in the late '80s. It's feed comes directly off the utility pole via an overhead line that will remain-it only travels a short distance and is out of the way.

Great idea to add the generator switch. We had been thinking about that, although the generator is still just a thought.

If you're changing the service to underground anyway it's a no brainer to go with the 200A service if not more if you can get it. Heck, I wish they'd run 3 phase so I could run 3 phase motors easy.

 

[ultrarunner]

New service with underground might as well do it once and be done...

We can get 3 phase here for farm use... it does come with a standby charge which can be steep...

One of my friends had it taken out because unlike the sellers... he was a hobby farmer and it was costing him monthly to have something he was not using.

 

[dickfoster]

New service with underground might as well do it once and be done...

We can get 3 phase here for farm use... it does come with a standby charge which can be steep...

One of my friends had it taken out because unlike the sellers... he was a hobby farmer and it was costing him monthly to have something he was not using.

Never heard of a standby charge but I'm sure if there is a charge to charge then I'm sure PG&E in California would be charging for it and then some and the state would likely pile an extra tax on for it too.

 

[Zerk]

I suspect it is not unusual to pay more for 3 phase service. They are probably using 3 transformer set up, which costs them more.

I wonder how many people really know how many amps they draw.

 

[ultrarunner]

At work needed to know this for some equipment we needed to bring in...

Have a 1200 amp service and monitored it for 30 days... we were at 27%

Entire room of panels... outlets and circuits everywhere... thing is most are for convenience and few are used...

 

[CurlyDave]

It sort of goes without saying you have to upgrade everything including wire to the house when upgrading to 200 amp. and that is why the price is most likely quite different between the two quotes. No licensed electrician would put a 200 amp box on a 100 Amp wire to the house. Not even a good unlicensed handyman would do that. Only a complete hack that doesn't know about electricity would do that. OP do not allow a hack to put a 200 amp box in your house without also sizing the feed to the house for 200 amp.

OK. Please educate me on this. If I have a 100 Amp wire to the service entrance, and put in a 200 Amp panel, but change out the main breaker to be a 100 Amp breaker, what is wrong with that?

I know I have to upgrade the main feed wire to put the 200 Amp breaker back in, but if I ever need the 200 Amps, I don't have to change out the panel. And, I get a lot more breaker slots. As people have said, with LED lights and more efficient appliances, real amperage draws are decreasing, but the number of circuits desired seems to be increasing.

 

[ultrarunner]

This is what I'm finding... real usage down and number of circuits up...

The common setup and one I still have a few of is a 1200 square foot, 3 bedroom single family home with a 30 amp main serving two branch circuits... a 20 amp for outlets and a 15 for lights.

These same homes are now getting 200 amp with 40 slots like the home one door over... yet I have never had a single issue with my 30 amp 120 volt main...

I think a lot of it is the sales factor of going to 200 amps... even the city only requires 100 amp

 

[papabear]

Think resale.
If I am looking at a property to buy, and it only had a 100 amp service, that would be a negative feature of the property for me.
I would spend the extra $$$ and not cheap out.

 

[teejk]

OK. Please educate me on this. If I have a 100 Amp wire to the service entrance, and put in a 200 Amp panel, but change out the main breaker to be a 100 Amp breaker, what is wrong with that?

I know I have to upgrade the main feed wire to put the 200 Amp breaker back in, but if I ever need the 200 Amps, I don't have to change out the panel. And, I get a lot more breaker slots. As people have said, with LED lights and more efficient appliances, real amperage draws are decreasing, but the number of circuits desired seems to be increasing.

I'm not a pro but your thinking makes sense to me although you might want to price things out. The main breakers are pricey so it may be cheaper to buy the 100a panel w/ main (around here the "kits" are cheaper than the individual parts) and add subpanels for additional slots. As for number of circuits...when you need more and more dedicated circuits for your smoke alarms, septic pumps and such the empty slots evaporate quickly with very little load.

 

[LD1]

Agree with others that if you are doing all new underground, go with 200A. As the cost difference in 200A wire vs 100A wire is ~80 cents a foot last time I priced. Which is small compared to the other costs associated.

But check with your utility first. Make sure the meter/meter base as well as the transformer are sized to handle the load.

I may have missed it, but dont remember you saying what the existing service is? Depending on that, the electric company may need to upgrade things on their end. My electric company dont charge for any of that. Just did new 200A service to my shop. Tapped into the transformer already on the pole but feeding the neighbor across the street. XFMR was too small, so they dropped a bigger one on there, wired the drop, and installed the meter panel with a 200a breaker in it as well as what they call a "contractor" plug....which is a 30a GFCI receptacle. None of that cost me anything. Used the contractor plug to have power down there while building. When ready to tie in the main panel, no need to call them back. Just shut off the breaker in the meter base, wire up, turn breaker back on.

 

[buickanddeere]

This is what I'm finding... real usage down and number of circuits up...

The common setup and one I still have a few of is a 1200 square foot, 3 bedroom single family home with a 30 amp main serving two branch circuits... a 20 amp for outlets and a 15 for lights.

These same homes are now getting 200 amp with 40 slots like the home one door over... yet I have never had a single issue with my 30 amp 120 volt main...

I think a lot of it is the sales factor of going to 200 amps... even the city only requires 100 amp

I'm trying to think how that would operate two fridges, a freezer, electric stove, microwave, toaster, coffee pot, hair dryer, electric water heater, electric well pump,electric clothes dryer, 22Kw of electric heat, block heater on the tractor and water heat trace for the critter's water pipes.
Then if we ever dialed the welder up to 300amps.........