3pt Log winch/grapple

[Jim Timber]

:laughing::laughing:
I have hughesnet for internet service:laughing:
It would take :laughing:years:laughing:to upload:laughing:

Better get started then! :thumbsup:

 

[ovrszd]

Part one of the winch dilemma solved. I just got off the horn with Ramsey and they confirmed the 8 GPM requirement of the SCH 4900 (on their website it says 8 in one spot and 13 in a different). They also confirmed that freespool can be added with a couple parts from one of the 8000 series. Sounds super simple to do and they even gave me the part number (276052). Loosen one set screw and remove another then pull one piece out with a magnet. Screw in the new plunger, check for 7/16" clearance at one spot and tighten the first set screw back up. With this info, I have found me a winch and I can make allowances within the design of the frame much easier than with a PTO winch :cool2:

Tomorrow I'll try calling a local dealer to see how much out of my budget it is.

That's all good news!!! Anxious to see the end result!!!

 

[ovrszd]

Better get started then! :thumbsup:

I'm with Jim. I'd like to see some action shots as well. Very interesting tool.

 

[Jim Timber]

CDN Farm Boy, I'm also curious how this works out. If I knew with certainty that the hydraulic winches could pull at a respectable line speed I would've bought one and built something instead of getting the Wally.

The Ramsey 8K that I looked at said their flow demand was 16gpm, and my tractor only produces 60% of that.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

CDN Farm Boy, I'm also curious how this works out. If I knew with certainty that the hydraulic winches could pull at a respectable line speed I would've bought one and built something instead of getting the Wally.

The Ramsey 8K that I looked at said their flow demand was 16gpm, and my tractor only produces 60% of that.

Jim, I looked at all kinds of alternatives before buying my FX90, and as I already own two winches that could be powered with hydraulics and a few more electric ones. Plus, like you I also have a decent shop with welders ect.., I couldn't and still don't see how anyone could build a winch that would be with in a hundred miles of a skidding winch without spending very close to the same money!

Sure, I could have made something that would work, but you have to give up waaaaaay too much in performance compared to a real skidding winch...

I didn't want something that would just work, I wanted something that would actually be useful to get tree's and logs out in a timely manner and be efficient... SO, I think YOU by far made the right decision in buying your Wallenstein.

And now that you have used your winch for a while, you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, they are money well spent!

SR

 

[Jim Timber]

Putting an electric valve on a hydraulic winch is a lot easier than reconfiguring the mechanical clutch engagement on the Wally though. :laughing:

I have no regrets about my FX85. I do wish it was easier to rig for a remote option. I'm not giving them $2K for theirs.

 

[Rustyiron]

I'm with Jim. I'd like to see some action shots as well. Very interesting tool.

I don't have any videos but a winch is a winch, the grapple is the fun part. I have 711 ac. of woods with a couple of miles of various degree (condition) of roads. I don't like to drag on the better roads unless it's frozen. The grapple and the way the winch is built allow me to have the butt end in the air 'bout 4-6' depending on if it's in grapple or on the chokers, saving my roads. Depending on the log, I can haul it off the ground completely. Big one's need to be shorter, but smaller one's can be 30' long. That big pine log needed to come down, it was hit by lightning and I didn't want the wood to go to waste, but all of my regular cutting is just thinning for firewood. No big "sticks" like Rob hauls.

 

[Jim Timber]

I've seen those pics. This is 2016 and we want action videos!

What kind of line speed are you getting out of your winch?

 

[Rustyiron]

Man you're hard on me I'll work on it, just don't hold your breath. The tractor is back in snowplow mode right now.
CNDfarm looked the winch up at just under a foot per second at rated flow on the first wrap. I'm happy at an idle or a little above on my tractor. It seems like half the time I'm yanking out hang-ups, or dodging stumps, rocks because I'm thinning. I just like making things that work, I sure as heck don't save any or much money:laughing: I never really added things up, but I can think of close to $5k in components and hoses real quick! Nothing for my time, welding wire, grinding wheels, etc.:confused2: The grapple & rotator and related diverter valves & hoses was well over half of that, but it's pretty cool to grab it, drag it, & drop it from the tractor seat.

 

[Jim Timber]

Uploading my 6 minute stump grinder video took something like 9 hours from my property on a 4g lte signal (ha!). We're 5 miles from the tower. So I do feel your pain. I just tell it to send it and then go about doing my thing until it's done. My phone is the only internet we have up there. In the metro at home, it'd take about 5 minutes tops. The 13 minute tractor tour was longer yet.

I don't really care what Ramsey claims for line speed. I want to see it pulling a big log and compare that to how my PTO driven winch pulls.

I should go poke around youtube some more and see if there's any videos. The regular recovery winches are painful to watch when guys make skidders out of them. Yawn... I've got work to do! I can't handle logs moving slower than my 5 o'clock shadow growing in.

 

[Rustyiron]

I don't really care what Ramsey claims for line speed. I want to see it pulling a big log and compare that to how my PTO driven winch pulls.

Jim I don't think you can compare the two, your pto winch would pull circles around my hyd. winch for sure. I put a pto winch on a 67 Bronco I had when I was a "hellion" kid, that thing was unstoppable.

 

[Jim Timber]

50fpm is what the PTO winch pulls at with the tractor at 1000rpm. If your hydraulic (or a different faster model) can keep that speed with my 11gpm flow, then there's some merit to going hydraulic.

The other thing I have in mind is a box mounted winch on my dump truck to pull wood up from the landing. Something like this would work super slick for that application. I'm not sure what the flow on that pump is (since I've yet to install it).

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

Mile Marker hydraulic winches (which are the ones most of us are familiar with from Jeeps/trucks etc used for wheeling) are silly slow. Jim's analogy of winching at the speed of beard growth isn't far off. Sure, they will run all day but they have to with those speeds, it would take an hour to do what my Warn will do in minutes. Their H9000 is a whopping 6.16 ft/min in low pulling 9000 lbs on the first layer. High speed on the first layer will get you 33.6 ft/min but only pulls 1500 lbs. Hyd requirements of 3.5 gpm @ 1500 psi which IIRC, is pretty standard for a power steering pump output. Mile Markers are all planetary from what I can see which makes their specs even more pathetic.

With Ramsey, you have a choice of worm gear or planetary gear. Worm gear 8000's are pulling between 12 and 32 ft/min depending on hyd flow between 15 gpm @ 1800 and 2500 psi. In the planetary design, there are many choices with decent line speed (50 ft/min give or take) from 15 gpm which with Jim's 11 would still work decent. They even have one winch that will pull 100 ft/min from 4 gpm @ 2500 psi. Too bad it's only rated for 1000 lbs.

I have no delusions that as a heavily used skidding winch a PTO one is FAR superior to hydraulic. I believe all you guys on that one. I also believe that there are some people that can get by just fine with a hydraulic one. Wallensten must agree as they offer a 3500 lb one for 15-30 hp tractors. Considering I don't even own a woodlot and am just cutting firewood from the neighbour's or fence lines, I'm sure I can get by. It's still a step up from rigging chains/cable and having to pull with the tractor.

Now if I could just get a return phone call from the Ramsey dealer with a price.......

 

[Rustyiron]

Now if I could just get a return phone call from the Ramsey dealer with a price.......

CDN, fwiw I got mine "mail order" from a towing supply outfit called AW direct.AW Direct: Towing Equipment, Work Truck Supplies & Accessories
Price is on the site. I have dealt with them for 10 years or longer, no complaints.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

Thanks Rusty. Contacted them this morning and am waiting for the return quote

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

AW Direct got back to me. They claim to only deal with towing winches and this is a crane winch so they can't help -- same story as other places. Called Ramsey again and asked WTF, where do I buy one of these? I was advised to ask for a price on part # 123308 rather than the winch model as every Ramsey dealer has access to every part & model.

Dealer #1 quote of $6500 CDN
Dealer #2 quote of $6100 CDN and offered advice that as it is a specialty winch and not that common and any of the 8000s would be much cheaper. Called me back a bit later with $2960 CDN for an 8000#
Dealer #3 in Syracuse quoted $3770 USD plus freight which at current exchange is about $5400 CDN not including the freight.

Clearly at those numbers, A new hyd winch isn't going to happen. I can buy a whole wrecker body on the used market right now for $1500 or a ready-to-go PTO skidding winch starting at $3000 CDN. Oh well, the grapple was always my priority anyway. I'll figure way to mount a winch when I find one that is a little more reasonably priced.

Frame pieces are cut and I'll start welding in the next day or two and have just about got the drawings for the grapple patterns ready to send my buddy for printing.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

As I hope to add a winch to this in the future, it will be built with that in mind, not just as a grapple. Started off with a 42" length of 8" wide flange I beam and cut one flange off to make the blade/anchor



5" heavy channel I had laying around to make the 36" 'verticals' and a piece of 3.5 x 5" angle iron salvaged from an old brick lintel to cap the top. Width of the 'verticals' at the base plate is 32" and 12" at the top. This is laying face down on my bench to check alignment of everything and keep it flat. I still have to notch the top of the channel to allow flush mount of the angle top piece. That 12" top should allow me to bolt on a hyd winch up there similar to how Rusty did his if I ever find one suitable. Pins are being set 16" above the bottom which should allow for 8" below grade for winching anchor and still get 12" of clearance fully raised without factoring in adjusting the hyd top link. I'll get this all tacked together and mount it to double check everything before I fully burn in the welds.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

I've got 2 drawings now for the grapple.

The first one with the "Bruce method" mentioned back in post #12



For the second, I started with the first and then adjusted it based on measurements and photos that Rusty emailed me:



They are fairly similar but with some notable differences. Vertical height is within an inch of each other and the opening is similar with at 39.5 and 43.5

With the "Bruce grapple", I much prefer how the grapple closes in on itself in a more compact package and the remaining opening (when fully closed) is more centered under the mounting point. The downside to the "Bruce grapple" is that it only uses about 7" of the available 8" stroke cyl. The 2 sides are different from each other with about 5/8" difference in the pin centers

With the "Rusty grapple", both sides of the grapple are identical and the motion of the linkages perfectly suits an 8" hyd cyl. The downside is I don't care for how it closes (at least in my drawing) and isn't nearly as compact when fully closed. This one should have more clamping force available as the cyl & cross link mount are further from the pivot pins

 

[mikefromnh]

AW Direct got back to me. They claim to only deal with towing winches and this is a crane winch so they can't help -- same story as other places. Called Ramsey again and asked WTF, where do I buy one of these? I was advised to ask for a price on part # 123308 rather than the winch model as every Ramsey dealer has access to every part & model.

Dealer #1 quote of $6500 CDN
Dealer #2 quote of $6100 CDN and offered advice that as it is a specialty winch and not that common and any of the 8000s would be much cheaper. Called me back a bit later with $2960 CDN for an 8000#
Dealer #3 in Syracuse quoted $3770 USD plus freight which at current exchange is about $5400 CDN not including the freight.

Clearly at those numbers, A new hyd winch isn't going to happen. I can buy a whole wrecker body on the used market right now for $1500 or a ready-to-go PTO skidding winch starting at $3000 CDN. Oh well, the grapple was always my priority anyway. I'll figure way to mount a winch when I find one that is a little more reasonably priced.

Frame pieces are cut and I'll start welding in the next day or two and have just about got the drawings for the grapple patterns ready to send my buddy for printing.

For those prices I think I'd reverse engineer the power-trac hydraulic winch setup. I don't know that there be way to make it free spool though.

 

[airbiscuit]

Maybe not useful to your post, but they are selling these for $2,100 on Craigslist in WI.