Ventrac 4500 vs Steiner 440

[Industrial Toys]

As it is now. I have to watch for stepping in deep mud or going *** over tea kettle on some ice. Cutting grass seems years away! Any maiden voyage of this (new to me) mower now, might well involve some altercation with an ice berg! This is the slowest thaw I remember in a long time. Not a bad thing I guess. Usually we have -20c one week and + 30c the next!

I will be tickled pink if I can finally cut grass with my Steiner without thinking about which way the grass flies. One building in particular is built into a hillside that ends at a tree line and I have had no choice with the side discharge mower, other then to blast the wall of the building.

 

[prs]

I will be tickled pink if I can finally cut grass with my Steiner without thinking about which way the grass flies. One building in particular is built into a hillside that ends at a tree line and I have had no choice with the side discharge mower, other then to blast the wall of the building.

I think we all have that building!

prs

 

[johara1]

I learned early on to cut with the discharge away from the buildings. i never used a rear discharge with a full roller but as the grass blows out the rear it hits the front tires and causes it to windrow. With a full with roller it may stop that but if it's wet or a little long it may get interesting…….

 

[brucet47]

I have both the Side and Rear discharge 60" Ventrac mowers. I have lots of steep slopes as well as a 22 degree lake dam that I mow. I prefer the rear discharge as it is a bit lighter, is easier to trim with, and doesn't clog nearly as bad as the side discharge when mowing damp or higher grass. It is also quicker to mow with as you can make a pass in any direction without worrying about grass clippings that have been discharged to the right side. It is also a cleaner mower to use as the clippings fall straight down and do not blow on you as can happen with the side discharge, on a breezy day, mowing dry grass. It does windrow, however I mow my fescue at 4" so the effect is minimal. I mow with the 4200 water cooled diesel so on very dry days you do have to watch the water temp and stop occasionally to clean the radiator screen. About the same effect you have when using the Tuff- Cut on pasture. The rear discharge also does a better job of mulching leaves in the fall using the standard mowing blade. I've never tried a mulching blade on it.

We have about 2 acres of level low area where my wife likes to use our 4100 25HP gas with the side discharge mower. It does a nice job and she generally mows with the chute discharge down to minimize windblown debris.

I have the dual tire setup for the 4200, however generally don't install them unless mowing very wet pasture areas.

I've owned the 4100 6 years and the 4200 4 years. Both have just needed routine maintenance and occasional belt replacement. The PTO clutch failed on the 4200 under warranty and the dealer came to our site and replaced it.

 

[johara1]

I did get a nice surprise with the Steiner 440 hydraulic is head over heals more powerful than the VT. and i do like the two brakes for safety. The rest is still up in air the as of now, but it does hang on a slope good and weight transfer can be adjusted on the move, nice feature…….. jim

 

[BKBrown]

That (the low hydro pressure) is the only real complaint I have with the Ventrac. I would love it if they would boost that pressure. Now that mine is out of warranty - I would love to have that pump boosted to max pressure.

 

[Raw Dodge]

The low pressure is always the complaint...and boosting it doesn't always give the desired results.. The best way to explain it would be to tell you that you would like more pressure at your sprinkler head on your lawn so it will spray further.Lets say there is a pressure regulator on the sprinkler head it is set at 30 psi the water pressure coming in the hoses 60 psi but the hoses 75 feet long and has a few holes in it along the way , in time the leaks get bigger and if that garden hose was buried under the ground and you didn't see the leaks you may be tempted to go to the sprinkler and turn up the pressure setting as you know this will not help if the leaks bleed off enough pressure to keep the pressure at the tip about 30 raising the pressure there will not do anything, unless you replace the leaky hose......just like this leaky hose ... Your ventrac hydraulic system has internal leaks that are normal.. When it is new these leaks are minimal and the low pressure pump supplies the high pressure pump that operates the wheel motors. That's the part that's important to understand, because usually when there is low pressure or slow operation in the low pressure system the steering and lift it is the result of a leak in the high pressure system this leak causes the low pressure pumps full capacity in gallons per minute to be used to supply the high pressure pump with fresh fluid to overcome the leaks this leaves the low pressure system with very little reserve capacity and anything you do to lift or steer may cause the low pressure systems gpm to be inadequate to do both, and the low pressure systems pressure falls below the relief valve pressure set point.. If this is what's happening raising the pressure will not help you , while it is cold you may think it's better, but then once it's hot as soon as the machine fully warms up you will have the same exact problems..Steiner added a second pump to the 440, they added enough flow to compensate for normal wear down the road and to allow for hydraulic capacity to always be available no matter how hot the machine is. My guess is that Ventrac hasn't done this because it is a cost issue and also space is limited under the hood. it's my opinion that the hydraulic pumps that ventrac Steiner use, were originally intended to run 1 hydraulic motor, similar to something like a Steiner 230, adding a second motor to allow four wheel drive causes extra internal pump leakage double that of a two wheel drive. here and is where I believe the problem lies once these machines get some time on them in the motors get some wear, and starts to bypass more oil, because you have two of them you have double the leaks that it was designed for so the little 1.2 gallons per minute pump just isn't quite enough for a dual motor system like a Steiner Ventrac, if the system is in tip top shape there is no problem. I believe the owners at ventrac are pretty smart, this is why they use amsoil, and the extra return line filter on the rear to help minimize internal wear and provide the most service life possible before the pumps and motors need to be resurfaced.

 

[brucet47]

Excellent post and a good example as to why low hour drives are a lot stiffer and noisier than high hour drives. As the rear pump wears the front pump doesn't bypass nearly as much. Also a good reason to avoid the duals as much as possible as they just add to the stress of the rear pump when executing tight turns. My 4100 with 1400 hours has much less drive noise than my 4230 with 750 hours.

 

[prs]

Raw Dodge, do you think the BestLine Powertrain Lubricant additive would slow the wear-out internal leakage process?

prs

 

[Raw Dodge]

I dont have enough long term time to know yet, I use it, in both steiners and my ventrac. .I've only been using it a little over a year. I'll tell you that they definitely operate smoother and with less pump whining.i usually redo the rear motor every few seasons,this keeps the systems in good shape and keeps leaks to a minimum. Its not hard work but it's messy and time consuming also requires a very clean work area.

 

[johara1]

I guess owning a PT. with 2500 psi hyd. system spoils you, but the Steiner at 1500 psi. and 6 gpm. is ok but not great. A 5 gal. capacity again is a step in the right direction. I would hope VT. would do something like the 440, i can fill the 48" slip scoop up with modified and it does not hesitate to pick it up. The PT. 48" bucket is around 9 cf. a 1/3 yd and it would carry it and no weights. It's power was amazing for a 422, but it needs a weight transfer system for hills that is where it lacks……. jim

 

[Raw Dodge]

They're totally different animals, a steiner or ventrac delivers way more pto power to the impliment, what it lacks in hydraulic power it makes up for in pto power . Especially mowing this can make a big difference 11.5 hydraulic hp, a pt 425 delivers is about half or less than that of what a steiner 440 can deliver thru it's pto. Can a pt effectively run a power blower,72-84 " mower or 12k generator? I love both wish I had the money for a PT..maybe a used one one day.

 

[Raw Dodge]

Bearsden, something i wanted to mention that i didn't see brought up, the diesel powered machines only make sense if you have an off road bulk diesel tank on site, they aren't better enough on fuel to offset the national average of about 60-70 cents per gallon difference in price. These little diesels do not have an advantage, as far as being rugged or long lasting, the gas LC engines have identical build quality and can expect at least the same service life from them as the diesel. There's a common misconception that all diesels last longer and pull better..not true at all with small equipment These machines lack the space for a larger slow turning diesel that would be longer lasting and offer a stronger torque curve. .these small 3600 rpm diesel engines do not have a lower working rpm, or a turbo to produce more torque, as is the case with nearly all diesel trucks vs gas . liquid cooled 3 cylinder gas is every bit of engine as the diesel it's just cheaper easier to find fuel for, and more powerful.

 

[prs]

Some commentary on Raw Dodge's last two postings from a new user of Ventrac, no Steiner or PT experience at all. I was leery of the front PTO design of the VT. A single belt? My Compact Utility (14.5HP 2cy Diesel @ 2,600 RPM) has a front 21 spline PTO driven by two larger belts and even those need replacement every three or four seasons of hard use and its 60" mower would pull it down if the grass was very tall (slow going). BUT 6 gallons of diesel in it would more than double the work done by 6gallons of gasoline in the VT I now own.

Yet, the VT's belt did not slip or fail or bog down in wet moderate tough grass; at least not yet. I was/am much impressed with the implement power ( seven foot contour mower). I am not so impressed by the power of the transmission and steering and how one saps the other. But, I am developing or have developed driving habits that avoid such competition between those two functions. The effect may be enhanced on my machine since I am pushing that big 600+ pound mower through heavy grass on steep terrain. The modern traditional type compact utility tractors typically have separate hydraulic pumps dedicated just to steering, maybe a future improvement for VT?

prs

 

[Industrial Toys]

Ah, but there is nothing like the smell of Diesel Exhaust on a cold crisp morning!

 

[brucet47]

To me diesel is just easier to store and dispense as compared to gasoline. While I have easy access to off-road diesel I still buy the low sulpher as it seems to burn cleaner. I use a couple of 55 gallon drums for storage, designed originally for chemicals, and the local fuel company drops by every couple of months and tops them off. I use a 12V diesel dispense pump that I purchased at TSC and run it off an old 12V battery charger. It pumps about 5 gallons a minute and I don't have to lift 40lbs each time I need to fuel. On the other hand I have (4) 5gal. containers I use to transport and store gasoline. I empty these the old fashioned way into my Hustler and VT4100.

There is no question in my mind that my VT4230 turbo diesel has significantly more get up and go then my VT4100 Kawasaki 25. It is especially noticeable when mowing heavy pasture with the Tuff-Cut. Fuel consumption on the Diesel seems to be about 50-60% of the gas model. I have heard that the turbo diesel tends to come unwound once you pass the 650 hour mark, however I'm at 750+ and so far so good. I do let the turbo cool down for about five minutes before I shut it down. Usually the ride back from the pasture is about that long.

I have a propane 7500 watt generator that I really like. I would take a hard look at propane should either of my Ventracs need to be re-powered in the future. How do those of you using propane refill? Do you maintain a spare tank? I have a 500 gallon propane tank I use for heat. Can a consumer acquire a pump to use an on-site source? Just curious.

Bruce

 

[johara1]

I don't think you will see anything but the 25 hp diesel at least for a while. The torque isn't the greatest on them either, so gas seems the the best way to go…….. jim

 

[johara1]

They're totally different animals, a steiner or ventrac delivers way more pto power to the impliment, what it lacks in hydraulic power it makes up for in pto power . Especially mowing this can make a big difference 11.5 hydraulic hp, a pt 425 delivers is about half or less than that of what a steiner 440 can deliver thru it's pto. Can a pt effectively run a power blower,72-84 " mower or 12k generator? I love both wish I had the money for a PT..maybe a used one one day.

No, but If i added the weight to the rear of a PT. 422 or 425 that VT. needs it would pick the VT or Steiner up and carry them around, plus they handle a 4' box blade, 4' tiller. They will handle that size mowers in the diesels. my generator is self powered, it doesn't move... LOL... They all have their place? jim

 

[John Joseph McVeigh]

My Ventrac MC600 60-inch rear-discharge mowing deck does have a rear roller bar. I have not yet had the opportunity to mow any grass with it. I will get back to you in a month or so.

JJM

Here are the results of my initial mowing session. I mowed my yard, the two strips alongside my driveway, and my elderly neighbor's yard. All told, about three acres of mowing. When I popped the hood at the end of the work session, there was very little in the way of clippings on the radiator screen. The temperature gauge never got above the first green segment. The ambient temperature was in the mid-70s.

 

[Raw Dodge]

Here are the results of my initial mowing session. I mowed my yard, the two strips alongside my driveway, and my elderly neighbor's yard. All told, about three acres of mowing. When I popped the hood at the end of the work session, there was very little in the way of clippings on the radiator screen. The temperature gauge never got above the first green segment. The ambient temperature was in the mid-70s.

It's way to early to tell, the grass is full of moisture now.You won't have any build up.Once the dry summer is here you'll see it then, radiator will be drawing it in, I know mine does.Ive had my screen 90 percent blocked and I just keep going until the temp hits 195, and it never has , stays at 180-185..so I've never had to stop to clean a screen yet...my friend had a 4231 TD, and had to stop every 3-5 minutes in the heat of summer, and shut down clean screen , he had no problem in the spring.