Help! Flickering lights/haunted house

[gocards1177]

About 3-4 weeks ago we started noticing the lights flicker when the furnace, dryer, bathroom heaters, or stove kicked on. Some lights would get dimmer, some get brighter. Sometimes for a few seconds, sometimes they would stay that way.

Did some research, called the utility company, sounds like an open neutral somewhere. The electric company plugged a device of some kind into our house and out at the "splitter" that services 3 other houses. All of the utilities in our neighborhood are buried. He came back and said the recordings suggested there's a voltage drop from the splitter to our meter and from the meter to the outlet the sensor was at. None of our neighbors are having problems. He tightened all the connectors that were his responsibility to no avail. He wasn't sure what to say and he asked us to call an electrician. My wife especially liked his comment about "finding it when it burned up".

The electrician came a few days later. He was here over an hour and couldn't figure out the problem. My wife said he was going all over the house and tried server all different things. He even ran a second ground to the breaker box. He's convinced the problem is the service cable that's buried in the backyard. He thinks when our house was built 20 years ago, the utility company was using direct bury cable. Seems like a stretch to me that this cable has been damaged all this time and is just now a problem.

We've been here 6 years. We did some electrical work when we moved in but nothing more recently other than a new water heater 2 years ago. The only thing I can think of that happened around the time this started is that we got a lot of snow here in Missouri. I guess the melting water could have affected the buried cable if it was already damaged? Also the snow at that time led to the GFCI breaker the Christmas lights were on getting tripped a few times. But that's it.

I did some investigating with a voltmeter just now on my own and a couple outlets in our kitchen and utility room have some funny readings. They were reading 117 volts. The more things we turn on around the house I can get the voltage down to 113. I did notice when I first turn on the dryer the outlets in that room spike briefly to 131 volts and then went to 115. I then checked the two main bus bars in the main panel against the neutrals. One side is 115 volts, the other side is 131. Maybe it is the buried service cable.

The electrician and utility company are coming back Wednesday to run a temporary new cable to bypass from the "splitter" to my meter and see if that helps. If it doesn't...

Any suggestions?

 

[kenmac]

Electricity can do some strange things sometimes. I had a neighbor that had problems with flickering lights. She called the Elec. utility. The utility sent someone out and checked. Utility man told her all was ok on their end, and she should call an electrician. She called electrician. Electrician checked everything on her end, and found no problems . She was told to her call the utility back. This second utility man (different man) found a bad ground or neutral on the utility's end . The utility also paid the bill for the electrician

 

[ultrarunner]

Probably not what you're dealing with.

My two experiences both were at homes my brother owned at different times.

One was a loose connection at the utility drop and the power company had to be dragged out because they said that never happens.

The second time it was in the panel... a bus bar was loose. It was not readily apparent at first glance either.

 

[s219]

Do you get 240V (or approx) across the two hots ? How does it behave when the dryer or another 240 appliance starts up?

Curious about the 120 outlet near the dryer going to 131 when the dryer starts up.

A lot of things could be the problem, but clearly there's an imbalance of some sort.

Appliances/loads that are solely 240 won't use the neutral, so it makes me wonder if the problem is not an open neutral but really an issue with one of the two hots -- if the two hots together cannot properly pass the net current of a 240 appliance, maybe something will bleed off into one of the 120 legs in order to get to neutral. Just trying to brainstorm a bit.

Edit to add: I can see how a nicked direct bury line could take many years to fail -- it could have been slowly corroding all this time.

 

[strum456]

It definitely sounds like a neutral problem to me. Check for loose or corroded connections on your main breaker. If you are sure that is all good, then I'd wait for the power company. This could definitely be their problem.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Have the utility company test the meter base at the meter. We had the same problem, turned out the meter base socket was defective.

 

[SPIKER]

Not sure WHY there is Duct Tape in the panel but that should be removed as it is rather flammable.

Floating Neutral is one thing but is sounds like there may be a corroded hot wire, did the Utility service tell you the voltage readings at the point where your drop wires (buried wires) leave the transformer. That would tell you if there is a bad connection at their high voltage to low voltage transformer.

Measuring the voltage between the Lines and Lines to Neutral will give you a bit more information. Also check to see if your Water Heater (Elec?) has a bad connection or shorted out heating element (if it is electric HW heater.) Those can pull a good bit of power thru the hot water tank and the line that in closer to the wire connection will pull down the line more as it is like a short circuit but often not enough to trip a breaker.

Look for loose or corroded wires coming in, look for where the wires come from the street/pole into the home to know if there is a tree planted, truck drove over it or new mail box that may have cut into the wires. Sometimes it only takes a nick in the wire to draw down the power.

Mark

 

[Ken]

Check the voltage under the duck tape then voltage on breaker buss bar side. could be the breaker.
when your water heater comes on voltage should be equal load since the ground in not used. unless you have a 120 volt element.
How did the power company employee decide there was no problem. A volt meter and a Amp meter or did he shut off the breaker and install a load box to check the wiring.
The electrician never discovered the voltage difference just ran another ground wire. ?
power company brings a ground from the transformer along with the 2 voltage wires to the meter socket and from there to the breaker box. a unequal voltage should not be measured with this much difference. then not such a voltage drop when in house device is used. This is the reason suggested rechecking the breaker.
Time to find the cause before the overheating causes sparks.
ken

 

[strum456]

The fact that your voltage is going up to 131 is what tells me that it is a neutral problem.

House circuits are wired in parallel. Parallel circuits have constant voltage.

////////////////resistance///////////////120v phase one
//
//
///////////////neutral
//
//
///////////////resistance///////////////120v phase two


When something happens to the neutral, your house wiring becomes a Series circuit. Series circuits have constant current, and VOLTAGE FLUCTUATES DEPENDING ON RESISTANCE.


//////////////////resistance/////////////120v phase one
//
//
//
//
//
////////////////resistance//////////////120v phase two

The diagrams aren't the best. I'm just trying to give a general idea.

 

[gocards1177]

Thanks for the replies! Looks like I've got some things to investigate tomorrow. As to the duct tale that looks like it was put on there years ago. Maybe original. I can def take it off. I'm not sure what exactly the utility or electrician did or didn't do. The test the utility guy did was a small box that plugged into an outlet in the house for several days. There was something he put out at the "splitter" too and he took both pieces of equipment back to the shop and did some sort of analysis. I don't know if the electrician did any voltage testing. That was just me playing around with a multimeter earlier today. My wife said he took apart part of the water heater which makes me think he opened the access panel and checked the wiring. I didn't think to test between the two buses. That will be job one after church tomorrow. Thanks! I'll post again after some more hunting.

 

[dodge man]

We have had that same problem twice in the 15 years we've lived in our house, and it was a bad or loose ground in the utilities meter box.

 

[farmer2009]

You said you had a GFCI to trip. Look on that circuit. I had this once. Turned out to be a loose neutral. We have one GFCI that covers both bathrooms (not the way I like it but a mobile home). The loose wire was in the other bathroom from the GFCI. Although it kept tripping.

Had a family member call a few weeks back when it got cold they had some lights but no hot water or electric furnace. Turns out the utility ran a direct burial cable 30 years ago and it finally burnt one leg into. Must have had a nick in it. Utility dug it up and fixed it but said if they couldn't find it it would require new service. Come to find out their lights had been dimming and flickering for a few months.

So could be either or neither. Good luck.

 

[gocards1177]

The fact that your voltage is going up to 131 is what tells me that it is a neutral problem. House circuits are wired in parallel. Parallel circuits have constant voltage. ////////////////resistance///////////////120v phase one // // ///////////////neutral // // ///////////////resistance///////////////120v phase two When something happens to the neutral, your house wiring becomes a Series circuit. Series circuits have constant current, and VOLTAGE FLUCTUATES DEPENDING ON RESISTANCE. //////////////////resistance/////////////120v phase one // // // // // ////////////////resistance//////////////120v phase two The diagrams aren't the best. I'm just trying to give a general idea.

I understand the concept. Are yo saying it can't be the buried service cable?

 

[gocards1177]

Ok duct tape removed!

Tested the panel in several different ways. Across the service entrance cables I get 238. On the other side of the main breakers and across the main bus bars I get the same. I then use alligator clips to connect the meter to the bus bars and had my wife turn on the furnace, oven, and dryer. It went down to 235/236. Is this normal to drop a few volts?

We're getting ready to head to church and then out to the land for a bit, so I won't get to fiddle with this until late this afternoon. Would this experiment work?: set up the meter across one bus and neutral. Turn off all of the breakers and see if it goes to normal. If it does then keep turning on circuits until it changes. If turning them all off didn't fix it then it would have to be the buried cable/meter? And if turning them all off did fix it, it would have to be inside the house, and the circuit could be isolated.

 

[strum456]

I understand the concept. Are yo saying it can't be the buried service cable?

Anything is possible. However, I would certainly rule out loose or corroded connections before I started digging up cable. If you have a broken neutral in your service cable, then yes, that would cause it. How would it have gotten broken? I would also rule out the power company's side before I spent much time on it. There is a very good chance that this is their problem.

Your house has two separate 120v main wires entering it (phase one and phase two). One goes down the left side of your box, the other goes down the right. These two circuits of 120vac are 180 degrees out of phase with one another. So, it is the DIFFERENCE between these two phases that makes 240. When measuring from neutral to one side, you should not get more than 120 or 125 max. If the connection to neutral is no longer adequate, you will start to read the difference to the other phase of ac, which can cause higher readings at a 120v outlet. The more unequal the load is between phase one and phase two, the wilder your readings will get (either lower or higher than 120v). What you might want to try is turning on some CHEAP 120v appliances, such as lights or an electric space heater on one side of the breaker box, and keep the load minimal on the other side. Then measure from each phase to neutral. Make sure not to have stereos, tvs, appliances, etc. connected. The over or under voltage can ruin them (I've seen it happen).

Measuring across the two phases will give you around 240 regardless of the neutral. Yes, it is normal to see a little voltage drop, if you start a large appliance.

 

[gocards1177]

Didn't occur to me to stop using anything. It's been business as usual. When I get home ill disconnect and turn off as much as possible.

 

[SPIKER]

Once you see there are OK measurements (or bad ones) start turning on the equipment one at a time to see what might be causing it to isolate it from other devices.

I would suggest starting with the 240 stuff, turn off all of them (Well Pump, Stove, Hot Water or Base board heaters.) Then measure voltages on both lines and across lines to neutral & write them down.

Next turn on one at a time and turn ON the device, (Oven or run hot water etc.) and measure while the appliance is running.

Same then with the 120 volt stuff but I would bet it is a problem in a 240 device or one of the underground wires coming into your place.

If you see no voltage drop at the Meter Base, vs the Main Breaker inside (underground in between) with devices running the wire underground is OK, if there is a big difference then you know the problem is probably underground. With everything running one or two volt drop is normal but much more and lines or neutrals become suspect. Measure between both lines and neutral on ALL tests and record them.

If you have a clamp on amp probe that will help to see where/how much power is moving thru the wires so we can know if they are sized ok or if there could be corrosion in them.

Glad you removed the duct tape that stuff was probably very dry...

(Edit in: FYI Heating Elements are big resistors, a crack on one end will short out into the water and flow current more from one leg into the pipes and out to ground so less power is used on other leg as it must go thru the resistor of the broken heating element. Some times you can feel slight electrical current in hot water when it flows thru the pipes into the well or into a grounded drain etc.) Something cracks/shorts out the heating element out near the middle and the grounded frame carries some of the current unbalancing the leg loads. But if it is in the middle then the unbalance is very small as each leg has similar resistance to the break.

Mark

 

[Illini22]

When I was a troubleshooter (lineman) for the utility company we always put load on the "high side) of the (one phase at a time)customers meter cabinet. If the other phase spiked while the one we tested dropped, it was obviously a open nuetral. Their could be several reasons for that, bad URD cable, connection at pedestal or transformer, etc. If we saw no drop in voltage between phases it was usually on the customers side. Their was of course, some other more complicated rare examples that required more troubleshooting.
You need to put load on (microwave) each phase and test. Keep backing up from the main, to the meter, to the ped, risor pole, etc until you get balanced load, then You'll find your problem

 

[JPRambo]

The duct tape could have been put on by the original electrician. I would do this (or a piece of cardboard) if the panel was used for temporary power during construction of the home. Making up the circuit wires when the panel was "HOT" caused sparks to fly a couple of times before I started doing this.
At a home my parents owned a lightning bolt hit a tree in the back yard. The 'bolt' continued underground and hit the power company cable and burnt the cable apart underground. They replaced the cable and all was good.

 

[TCJatko]

I'm guessing you've already done this, but if not tighten all the connections inside the service entrance. Some can work loose over the years due to heating/cooling of the joints.