Starting your tractor in the winter.

[rsallen]

So far on this thread I've read at least twice and I think more that a warm up period to allow for oils, greases and engine to come to terms (so to speak) with each other as a waste of time and fuel. Is it also a waste of time and fuel to allow a cool down idle period before shut down?
IMHO in todays world with multi-grade oils and syn. greases it's no where near as bad as it was in the 'good old days', because back then block heater or no it made no difference to that mass of 0 degree metal under the seat and that 90 weight grease forget it that has the viscosity of a popsicle.
But even in the easier world of syn. and multi-grade oils why not let the gazillion parts in a tractor to at lest in part to expand together as a unit before putting as little strain as possible on them? Seems like a gallon or two of fuel over the life a tractor a small price to pay if I don't have to do a head gasket or rod bearings or cyl. sleeves etc etc etc.

In those same posts I heard about warm up times causing condensation. I like to know just how that happens as moisture condenses as air cools not as it heats up.

 

[Ilovemytractor]

What would happen if you let the tractor slow idle in cold weather. I am looking to buy a tractor and this will be my first. Owning a tractor is more complicated then owning a car it seems.

 

[Ilovemytractor]

I want to thank everyone for their input. Thanks again. I am learning.

 

[rsallen]

Would you think about jumping in your car first thing in the morning, start it up to run a race? Or would you get up early enough to warm it up first, drive a lap or two to heat up the tires, get the brakes and rotors working together and that tranny, diff and axles warm enough to absorb the shocks to come?

The modern auto trans have temp sensors for that reason, because people want to jump on them before things have a chance to come to working range.

 

[Egon]

Well, yes, but isn't some condensation in those areas about unavoidable? That moisture will be cooked and vented out of anything air can enter or leave, with the exception of the fuel tank/system. If air can't enter, how much condensation could there be? Condensation can happen in the fuel tank any time of year--No?

I did once see a ring of ice crystals just beneath my fuel cap, sort of floating in the diesel. I dipped some out and the rest disappeared on its own, without an additive.

Not all the water gets cooked out and some may help form acids.

 

[dave1949]

Not all the water gets cooked out and some may help form acids.

I'll swap a warm seat for a little acid any day. :laughing:

Seriously, I don't think that can be 100% prevented. That's one reason why oils get changed.

 

[RoyJackson]

Not all the water gets cooked out and some may help form acids.

What really causes condensation problems (and not just with tractors or diesel engines) is starting, idling and shutting down in a relatively short period of time. The system doesn't get hot enough to evaporate the condensation.
Consider how long it takes your car or truck to warm on a cold morning...by "warm", I mean up to operating temperature. It's normally 5 miles or there abouts...in suburban areas, this is 15-20 minutes at moderate load.
So, don't start your tractor just to warm it up for 5-10 minutes, then shut it down...don't start your tractor unless you plan on operating it for a period of time (clearing your drive as an example)...say 30-60 minutes.

 

[fieldman12]

I prefer not to start any of mine when it is cold out. If I have to plow snow I plug them in first for at least a few hours. I let them idle for about 5 minutes and then raise the rpms to around 1200 for a few more minutes. By this time the temp gauge should be up some so I start moving around a little. a diesel really takes a long time to get to the operating range unless you start to move it around some. Even though the engine may be warm cause It was plugged in does not mean the hydraulic fluid is warm yet so that is why I like to be easy on it for a bit. Your machine will let you know if it needs more time. I rather be on my snowmobile when its cold

 

[buickanddeere]

What would happen if you let the tractor slow idle in cold weather. I am looking to buy a tractor and this will be my first. Owning a tractor is more complicated then owning a car it seems.

All other factors being identical. The slower the rpms, the lower the combustion chamber temp. Lower the combustion chamber temp the more condensation, more unburned fuel, more lube oil dillution, more cylinder wall washdown.

 

[vtsnowedin]

So far on this thread I've read at least twice and I think more that a warm up period to allow for oils, greases and engine to come to terms (so to speak) with each other as a waste of time and fuel. Is it also a waste of time and fuel to allow a cool down idle period before shut down?
.

If your tractor has a turbocharger you definatly want to let it cool down at idle as per the manual to avoid frying the bearings to the turbo.

 

[sixdogs]

Those owner's manuals are talking about warm-up in summer weather. In really cold winter weather I'd say it would take an hour anyway to get everything warmed up. Rule is you need to get to operating temperature and then run for 20 minutes or more. At cold temps I'd say it would take at least a half hour to get even partway up the gauge. Anyway, that's been my experience.

Edit--I'll add that a block heater or magnetic stick-on heater would help a lot if plugged in for a few hours before use. There's a lot of mass to heat.

 

[DarkBlack]

All other factors being identical. The slower the rpms, the lower the combustion chamber temp. Lower the combustion chamber temp the more condensation, more unburned fuel, more lube oil dillution, more cylinder wall washdown.

I disagree. if you idle with no load at 2x the rpm, so are creating 2x the damages you just mentioned. 2x the rpm's means 2 x the cold air drawn in the engine, 2x the cold air blown from your fan etc.. It's still no load = no heat.

 

[DarkBlack]

Mechanical Engineer for a "major diesel engine manufacturer" advice:


It is never good to run a diesel engine at low speed idle more than a minute or two. The only exception to that is very large, very expensive engines that don't have access to pre-lubing (think: many cylinders). Low speed idle leads to wet stacking of piston rings, clogged injectors, etc.

Wet stacking and resultant clogged injectors is from low work load, not from low rpm's. It's a common problem on generators that run at 1,800 and 3,600 rpm's.

 

[DarkBlack]

( "What condensation do you speak of? In cold weather the dew point is usually below freezing." )

Warm tractor hits cold air, moisture in fuel tank, gear box etc. condenses.

I'm missing your point? Are you saying driving a tractor out of a warm garage a couple of times of year in winter is something else to worry about?
What's you condensation theory on the alternative of leaving it outside to change temperature with each passing day and night?

 

[DarkBlack]

There's tons of information out there from diesel engine manufacture's that you can read on the web. I just spent some hours reading through some of it ( Cummins Caterpillar, etc..), and it pretty much agrees with what some of us has said. That being: You should not "warm" up a diesel with a prolonged idle period.
More than 3-5 minutes contributes to engine damage and wastes fuel. Warm it up by work loading it lightly.

 

[buickanddeere]

I disagree. if you idle with no load at 2x the rpm, so are creating 2x the damages you just mentioned. 2x the rpm's means 2 x the cold air drawn in the engine, 2x the cold air blown from your fan etc.. It's still no load = no heat.

You must have missed the class in engineering school about linear statistics.
Rpm IS NOT directly tied to rpms and the number of turns.
Check diesel combustion chamber temp just prior to and during combustion with an engine operating at 800 vs 1200rpm.

 

[buickanddeere]

Those owner's manuals are talking about warm-up in summer weather. In really cold winter weather I'd say it would take an hour anyway to get everything warmed up. Rule is you need to get to operating temperature and then run for 20 minutes or more. At cold temps I'd say it would take at least a half hour to get even partway up the gauge. Anyway, that's been my experience.

Edit--I'll add that a block heater or magnetic stick-on heater would help a lot if plugged in for a few hours before use. There's a lot of mass to heat.

Are you saying to pre-warm via idling for one hour ?

 

[murphy1244]

My Kioti manual states to warm up 3-4 minutes warm start and 10 minutes cold start

 

[sd455dan]

Temp vs. RPM on an (non loaded) diesel engine can easily be checked by using a laser thermometer.
the exhaust port temperature for each cylinder will rise if the engine rpm is increased.

# of combustion events per minute is increased therefore rate of warm up, and loading a diesel will result in more fuel being injected also shortening warm up time my 2 cents

 

[sixdogs]

Are you saying to pre-warm via idling for one hour ?

No I idle for a couple minutes and ramp up to manufacturer specs or just do light duty work. Long idle for a diesel at low RPM is not good. Sorry for any confusion. That tractor in cold weather takes a long time and an incomplete warm up just forms condensation and creates more problems.