Toilet flapper help please

[dodge man]

I must be living right, I've been a homeowner for over 20 years, and I think I've only replaced the guts to a toilet once. The problem wasn't the flapper either, but the valve.

 

[RoyJackson]

NOPE i am not confused about anything, this flapper is allegedly adjustable to control the amount of water released from the tank during a flush..

Brian

Per the linked website, it states "•Dials to adjust volume for a custom flush."
Did it have instructions on how to "dial"?

To lower the water level, just bend the rod that holds the float (spherical plastic thing) to the flush valve. A little bend can do the job...and you can always bend it more, if necessary.

 

[thatguy]

I must be living right, I've been a homeowner for over 20 years, and I think I've only replaced the guts to a toilet once. The problem wasn't the flapper either, but the valve.

my wife liked to use in-tank chlorine toilet cleaners which seem to warp the flappers.. We are also on a well with slightly hard water, which also may be the cause..


Brian

 

[thatguy]

Per the linked website, it states "•Dials to adjust volume for a custom flush."
Did it have instructions on how to "dial"?

To lower the water level, just bend the rod that holds the float (spherical plastic thing) to the flush valve. A little bend can do the job...and you can always bend it more, if necessary.

The OLD flapper had a dial on the topside from 'max' to 'min' - I BELIEVE, that the dial some how that adjusted how much water is let into the flapper so it closed quicker.. BUT im not sure..

The NEW flapper I bought had a similar dial on the underside of the flapper (on the end of the 'bulb' that goes into the channel leading to the toilet) - and what it appears to do is control how much water leaves the bulb - which I assume if there water in the bulb the weight will close the valve quicker..

Our toilets dont have the rod, it has a float that rides on the water input valve..


QUESTION FOR EVERYONE - do your toilets completely empty the tank on each flush? Are your toiled the 1.6 gpf models or the older ones that used 2.5 or or gallons?

Brian

 

[RoyJackson]

QUESTION FOR EVERYONE - do your toilets completely empty the tank on each flush?

Brian

Yes, ours do (we have two commodes). As written in a previous post, we adjust the quantity of water in the tank by the float.

 

[thatguy]

Roy - are your toiled the 1.6 gpf or the older version?

I just adjusted the water level in the tank - BUT the lowed i could adjust it was about <2" below the old water level - so it is still using well over 2 gallons per flush..


this is the type of fill valve we have, so it only has limited adjustment available

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/bath/toilets/fluidmaster/400a-toilet-tank-fill-valve-103218.html

 

[Johnp33]

I have changed many a valve and the problem ended up being the chain would bind and stop the flapper from closing, I trimmed of the chain ends and it stopped the problem.

 

[clemsonfor]

DO what i said and Fix your float so that it dosent fill all the way up. You either bend the rod(down) if its the round type float or you adjust the fkoat if its a verticle float by reducing the height of the fill valve depending upon model.

 

[thatguy]

DO what i said and Fix your float so that it dosent fill all the way up. You either bend the rod(down) if its the round type float or you adjust the fkoat if its a verticle float by reducing the height of the fill valve depending upon model.

two posts above your, you will see that I did lower the water level - but it only lowered it <2" then i ran out of adjustment..

I just measured and it is taking 2.5 gallons of water per flush - so it is way out of spec for the 1.6 gallons it is designed to use.

It would have never left the factory using more than 1.6 gallons per flush, and when new it didnt empty the tank with each flush - so the flapper has to be the issue..

Adjusting the water level will help lower water consumption - but it still isnt fixing the issue..

its sorta like you buy a tractor and it uses 1.6 gallons of fuel per hour.. then you changed the fuel filter and now it uses 2.5 gallons per hour - no one would be happy with the the higher consumption, they would want to know why/how that part increased the consumption.

thanks for all the tips/ideas/suggestions..


brian

 

[clemsonfor]

Sorry i opened the page and ate dinner and watched tv so i did not see any of the posts till i posted and you pointed out the activity.

Me i like the higher water consumption. The new toilets dont seem to flush well. But i guess one designed to flush 1.6 wont flush any better with 2 gals?

Is the fill valve you have designed for a low flow toilet?

In the long run is it a big deal? Are you worried cause your water is really expensive or worried about the extra load on a septic system?

Water is sold by the thousand gallons and my water only costs $3/thousand. so if a toilet is flushed 5x per day your using an extra 150 gallons a month or if you flush the toilet 15x per day your only using an extra 450 gallons a day. Even at water 2x as expensive as mine your only looking at what $3 month.

 

[RobertBrown]

The higher the water in the tank, the more pressure you will have in the bowl when the toilet is flushed so, leaving water in the tank makes sense ( .433 psi per foot). I just don't know how the flapper can regulate the water level or the amount of water that leaves the toilet.
The last flapper I bought (a couple of weeks ago), did not come with a seat, it just slid over the fill tube. It seems to me the higher you lift the flapper, the more water leaves the tank. So lengthening the chain might be the ticket. :confused3:
As long as toilets have been around and as simple as they are, you would think there would be no mystery's here. ullinghair:

 

[thatguy]

Sorry i opened the page and ate dinner and watched tv so i did not see any of the posts till i posted and you pointed out the activity.

Me i like the higher water consumption. The new toilets dont seem to flush well. But i guess one designed to flush 1.6 wont flush any better with 2 gals?

Is the fill valve you have designed for a low flow toilet?

In the long run is it a big deal? Are you worried cause your water is really expensive or worried about the extra load on a septic system?

Water is sold by the thousand gallons and my water only costs $3/thousand. so if a toilet is flushed 5x per day your using an extra 150 gallons a month or if you flush the toilet 15x per day your only using an extra 450 gallons a day. Even at water 2x as expensive as mine your only looking at what $3 month.

I reckon what i dont understand is how complicated could a flapper be?? it should be buy flapper, install flapper, and not have to worry about it not working correctly - but it serves a very simple, but (obviously) yet complex purpose. I just want the toilet to work the way it did when new..

We live on a well, so I dont like to waste water (no pun intended) when possible.. Especially when it has been as dry as it has been lately.

The toilet is an American Standard and the fill valve (and other guts) is fluidmaster - and I have tried fluidmaster flappers and they didnt work correctly.. When i replaced them last time I tried about 3 different flappers but they all allowed a full tank flush.. I finally gave up, but this time I wanted to try and find a solution.

right now I have consumption to about 2.5 gallons, which i can probably live with - but I may try to put something in the tank to take up about 1/2 gallon of space..

thanks

 

[rekees4300]

but I may try to put something in the tank to take up about 1/2 gallon of space..

I have used brick(s). They work well but be sure to place them so they don't interfere with flapper, etc.

 

[thatguy]

The higher the water in the tank, the more pressure you will have in the bowl when the toilet is flushed so, leaving water in the tank makes sense ( .433 psi per foot). I just don't know how the flapper can regulate the water level or the amount of water that leaves the toilet.
The last flapper I bought (a couple of weeks ago), did not come with a seat, it just slid over the fill tube. It seems to me the higher you lift the flapper, the more water leaves the tank. So lengthening the chain might be the ticket. :confused3:
As long as toilets have been around and as simple as they are, you would think there would be no mystery's here. ullinghair:

I had the same thought and tried lengthening the chain but at some point it was hitting the lid of the commode before opening the flapper so i started shortening it.. But from watching the flush at any length of chain, as soon as the water flow starts it pushes the flapper all the way up and it wont drop until the water level reaches the flapper level.

from watching the old flapper it was not as affected by the water leaving the tank, so it would close while there was about 1/2 tank of water..

its almost like the flapper needs some weight but that would probably cause it to close too early.. the only other thing would have a 'float' some how push the flapper down at a certain water level..

Brian

 

[RobertBrown]

Does the flapper have a void in the lower part or part that winds up in the flush valve? That is supposed to lift the flapper as it fills with air when the flapper is down. As the flapper rises it fills with water and falls, in the mean time the water is moving into the bowl.
I don't see how you can adjust this....other than changing the pivot point on the flapper. Seems like if you raise the pivot the flapper would fill faster......

 

[boggen]

going to assume (errr making a rear out of u and me)

going to assume the flapper and the dial. on it. causes water to be held within the flapper. so there is more "weight to the flapper" more weight more likely quicker close.

other words fill your kitchen sink up with water. take a small cup or tea/coffee mug. place it on its side under the water. then while still under water. turn the small cup or mug upside down. then lift the cup or mug up out of the water. as you pull up on cup/mug and edge comes out of water. there is a sudden rush of water out of the cup/mug but until then the mug/cup was much heavier due to water inside of it.

i am going to assume the dial on the flapper is doing same thing as the cup/mug. and perhaps using a little bit of "velocity" water rushing out of the tank. to help close the flapper quicker. if you made the hole larger on assumed way flapper works. then you may have destroyed the flapper. a smaller hole would more likely be wanted. a smaller hole would hold the water inside the flapper for a longer time. a larger hole would only allow water in the flapper to exit out it more quickly resulting in less force to close the flapper.

=================
there are different models of "fill valves" i am not a large fan of the newer style fill valves, were the float is right around the fill valve / stem. and prefer the older style fill valves that had a rigid rod you could bend, with a float on the end of the stem.

though i take that back, the old style fill valves, that had rod and float on end of rod. caused "water hammer" in the lines. due to quicker on/off it seemed vs some of the newer style fill valves that have float right around the fill stem/valve.

also the old rod style fill valves with float sticking on other side of tank. the rod could bend over time and uses.

the newer style fill valves, bite: more so for hard water and build up of crud and no real easy way to remove crud easily in between float and the fill stem/valve.

the newer styel fill vaves, seemed like you paid arm and a leg, for more "adjustment"

================

if you are on a well then most likely you have a septic tank and leach field. and i would think twice on use of tablets and killing the bacteria in your septic tank and leach field.

 

[RoyJackson]

Roy - are your toiled the 1.6 gpf or the older version?

I just adjusted the water level in the tank - BUT the lowed i could adjust it was about <2" below the old water level - so it is still using well over 2 gallons per flush..


this is the type of fill valve we have, so it only has limited adjustment available

Toilet Fill Valve from Fluidmaster | The Home Depot - Model#: 400ARP25

I've never measured the output (i.e. gallons per flush)...just adjusted the float so I'd get a complete flush with the float as low as possible. Not to be crude, but this was only "measured" after someone defecated since urine is never a problem.

We're also on a well and have had problems on occasion. So, what we do is only flush a urine elimination if it starts to get a bit ripe...but at least once a day.

A buddy of mine who's also on a well had this posted above his commodes:

"If it's yellow, let it mellow
If it's brown, flush it down"

It can be a pain to convince women to not flush everytime they squirt, but it does reduce water consumption. Me? I piss outside half the time...

 

[JamesHW]

I had an 80 + year old toilet (since replaced by a Toto, which is great by the way) and I had an issue with the flap not seating properly. I found that occasionaly smearing a little petroleum jelly on the underside of the flap and the gasket it rest on and that fixed the issue.

 

[thatguy]

Does the flapper have a void in the lower part or part that winds up in the flush valve? That is supposed to lift the flapper as it fills with air when the flapper is down. As the flapper rises it fills with water and falls, in the mean time the water is moving into the bowl.
I don't see how you can adjust this....other than changing the pivot point on the flapper. Seems like if you raise the pivot the flapper would fill faster......

Yes I was calling it the 'bulb' - the way this flapper worked was that it had a hole in the bulb and it had a device on the bottom of the bulb that controlled how fast the water exited the bulb.. I tried adjusting the flow out of the bulb but that didnt do anything..

I had even made the bulb inlet hole bigger - which didnt help - then i added a 2nd hole - still no difference..

Finally i removed the flow control device from the bottom of the bulb completely - THIS did allow the flapper to close a little quicker at times..


Thanks for your help.. This was what information I was looking for.. This was the first time anyone told me how the flapper was suppose to 'work'. Yestersday had noticed bubble coming from the bulb while the tank was emptying, so I thought that may be what it does - Hence the bigger and then additional hole..

Brian

 

[SPYDERLK]

We have been in our house (built new) for 6 yrs in October.. So far I have already replaced the toilet flappers in 2 commodes at least once, maybe twice.. Now they are both leaking again (very slightly, but they are leaking)..

Why do they leak?

What is the best replacement for them?

Last time I bought 'adjustable flush' flappers from Lowes - they had an adjustment to control the amount of water used during a flush.. On one commode I was able to get it set so you it only used about 1/3 to 1/4 of the water in the tank to flush and still get a complete flush.. On the other toilet (same style, just a handicap height) will empty the entire bowl on every flush no mater how i adjusted it OR you didnt get a complete flush..

Suggestions on a good/better flapper?

Suggestions on a better 'flapper system' to just replace the entire ring/flapper system.

Brian

Are you sure that the little tube that sticks down into the flush breather column does not go so far down into it that it is below your fill water level? If it is it can siphon water from the tank into the column and thus the bowl. It could be this rather than an actual leak at the flapper.
larry