Tractor Shopping Observations

[Catfish Man]

This is not meant to knock anybody's choices in anyway, just some observations from my recent tractor shopping both in person and over the internet. And yes I could be described as "old school"

1. Tractor manufacturers are forcing us into machines with less weight and more HP. I suspect there are many reasons for this, one is people are using tractors more like lawn mowers and they don't want to mess up their lawn. I think from the point of manufacturers, it's because they can fit more small tractors on a container ship than they can big ones. I've seen some amazing things done with older tractors in the 30hp range (because they have the weight to get the power to the ground). Nowdays most 30hp tractors look like lawnmowers and weigh about the same as one.

2. There is a huge move to hydrostatic transmissions. I'm not going to debate which transmission is best (they each have their place), but hydrostatics use more hp and they are more expensive. You can't hardly buy a manual transmission in a car nowdays. I see this bleeding over to the tractor segment in the next few years. People are getting lazier and people don't understand how a tractor clutch works. If you want a hydrostatic that's fine by me, but don't try to tell me I have to buy one.

3. People think you HAVE to purchase a tractor with a loader. I'm not debating that a loader is a very handy tool. What I am saying is people are spending a lot of money on loaders that the average person gets very little use out of. You do not have to include a loader in your initial purchase, it can always be added latter. A lot of farming was done before loaders become common place. How did they manage? They were resourceful and they used their brain. Dealers are automatically adding the cost of a loader in my package without even asking if I want one. I don't know but I suspect this must be a high profit margin item.

4. Tractor dealerships are looking more like car dealerships. And most of the employees know very little about tractors.

 

[DK35vince]

I agree with everything you just said except for #3.
My first tractor had no loader and I got by OK.
My next tractor purchase I wanted a loader. What a differance. It made my tractor so much more handy I would never go without one ever again.

 

[dusty3030]

You can still get simple, geared heavy utility tractors.
Check out the specs on a 20 plus year old John Deere 2155.
Then check out the specs on a new John Deere 5055E.
They are virtually identical.

The compact tractors of today that are light with loaders and HST are geared for home owners, small scale horse ranchers, etc. And they are awesome for that.
Utility tractors for ground engaging small scale farming / large scale gardening are still very available in my opinion.

 

[strum456]

What you should have said for #1 was more ADVERTIZED horse power. They run fast (like a lawn mower), but die quick. When it comes to torque, there is no replacement for displacement..

 

[dusty3030]

John Deere 5045 / 5055 / etc
Kubota MX4700 / 5100
Manhindra 4025 and others.
Massey 2605

 

[MrWhippy]

When we were tractor shoppiing, it was clear to us, that the dealers knew where the majority of the market was: Lightweight, HST, FEL, cabs, and frequently turf tires.

That's where they started off, regardless of brand. Once my wife made clear she wanted weight and a gear transmission AND that she wanted a minimum of electronics, nearly all dealers completely switched gears and showed us completely different units. They seemed very knowledgeable about their tractors and comparable tractors from competitors. It was actually pretty stress free.

It was our perception that lightweight, HST with turf tires must be the largest proportion of their sales (Kubota, Kioti, MF, and CNH--our local JD dealer is not a small farm friendly place).

 

[Catfish Man]

Yes there are still heavy geared tractors available out there, but most of the dealers I'm visiting are not regularly stocking them.

I'm just noticing the trends and wondering what the future will bring.

I'm leaning towards the mf 2605 at this point

 

[MtnViewRanch]

This is not meant to knock anybody's choices in anyway, just some observations from my recent tractor shopping both in person and over the internet. And yes I could be described as "old school"

1. Tractor manufacturers are forcing us into machines with less weight and more HP. I suspect there are many reasons for this, one is people are using tractors more like lawn mowers and they don't want to mess up their lawn. I think from the point of manufacturers, it's because they can fit more small tractors on a container ship than they can big ones. I've seen some amazing things done with older tractors in the 30hp range (because they have the weight to get the power to the ground). Nowdays most 30hp tractors look like lawnmowers and weigh about the same as one.

Yes and no. If you want to mow lawns then a light machine is what you want. But it is no problem to purchase a 30hp tractor and have it weigh 5,000lbs. I think you may need to look some more.

2. There is a huge move to hydrostatic transmissions. I'm not going to debate which transmission is best (they each have their place), but hydrostatics use more hp and they are more expensive. You can't hardly buy a manual transmission in a car nowdays. I see this bleeding over to the tractor segment in the next few years. People are getting lazier and people don't understand how a tractor clutch works. If you want a hydrostatic that's fine by me, but don't try to tell me I have to buy one.

You don't have to buy one, get a gear model. Unless you are looking at lawn mowers, most all the tractors 40hp and under are available in HST or gear.

3. People think you HAVE to purchase a tractor with a loader. I'm not debating that a loader is a very handy tool. What I am saying is people are spending a lot of money on loaders that the average person gets very little use out of. You do not have to include a loader in your initial purchase, it can always be added latter. A lot of farming was done before loaders become common place. How did they manage? They were resourceful and they used their brain. Dealers are automatically adding the cost of a loader in my package without even asking if I want one. I don't know but I suspect this must be a high profit margin item.

The dealer offers you the tractor with the loader first, because that is what MOST people want. As you said, you don't have to buy it with a loader. I'm guessing that you have not had a loader, MOST people that have had a loader would not be without one again. As far as all the new stuff that makes farming easier, why have any of it? It use to be done with sticks, then came the shovel, then implements pulled by animals. Each new improvement was not a necessity, just made things easier and increased productivity.

4. Tractor dealerships are looking more like car dealerships. And most of the employees know very little about tractors. It is not most tractor dealers, maybe in your area, but not everywhere. As far as knowledge about the equipment, I would guess that it really hasn't changed all that much over the years. There are always people that know a lot while most others do not. Just the way it is and most likely always will be. Everyone is not smart and everyone does not care, it's just a job.

Good luck with your search.

 

[MasseyWV]

Great post! I'm also "old school" and agree with everything you said, especially the part about tractor dealerships looking more like car dealerships with employees who know very little about tractors. I'll add that they're also getting more sneaky about the horseposer ratings by commonly advertising the engine HP rather than the PTO or drawbar HP which are always lower.

 

[TripleR]

I guess it depends on where you shop, who you are and what you need. I live in a farming area, but close to some fairly suburban/homeowner buyers. All dealers with whom I deal handle tractors from small to very large ag models and will gladly show you anything from a lawn mower to 300+ ag unit. My Kubota/NH dealer owns and operates farms as does the salesman, Same for John Deere, Case sells CUT to ag.

We have tractors with and without loaders, but will never buy another without as use use them a lot. For us, loaders are essential, for some not so much and we have never been pressured to buy a loader though the one time we bought without we regretted it.

I run geared and HST units, but agree most CUTs on the lots are HST as the geared units just don't sell. Most farmers I know use an HST CUT in addition to their geared farm tractors.

I don't really know the definition of "Old School is as I grew up driving geared open station, no PS or even an umbrella to keep the sun off most of the time. Go see how many people who farm are willing to spend all day and half the night on one of those. How "Old School" do you want to get, we use to have to start our tractors with a hand crank.

 

[s219]

I think #1 and #2 are related. Or at least in my case they are. I specifically opted for more HP in a certain chassis size to offset the power-sapping behavior of the HST. I have no idea if manufacturers are thinking the same way, but it would make sense if HP levels have moved upwards to better pair with HST offerings. To me, there's no way around it. You simply need more HP to get the same performance out of an HST tractor.

 

[ctlguy]

This is not meant to knock anybody's choices in anyway, just some observations from my recent tractor shopping both in person and over the internet. And yes I could be described as "old school"

1. Tractor manufacturers are forcing us into machines with less weight and more HP. I suspect there are many reasons for this, one is people are using tractors more like lawn mowers and they don't want to mess up their lawn. I think from the point of manufacturers, it's because they can fit more small tractors on a container ship than they can big ones. I've seen some amazing things done with older tractors in the 30hp range (because they have the weight to get the power to the ground). Nowdays most 30hp tractors look like lawnmowers and weigh about the same as one.

2. There is a huge move to hydrostatic transmissions. I'm not going to debate which transmission is best (they each have their place), but hydrostatics use more hp and they are more expensive. You can't hardly buy a manual transmission in a car nowdays. I see this bleeding over to the tractor segment in the next few years. People are getting lazier and people don't understand how a tractor clutch works. If you want a hydrostatic that's fine by me, but don't try to tell me I have to buy one.

3. People think you HAVE to purchase a tractor with a loader. I'm not debating that a loader is a very handy tool. What I am saying is people are spending a lot of money on loaders that the average person gets very little use out of. You do not have to include a loader in your initial purchase, it can always be added latter. A lot of farming was done before loaders become common place. How did they manage? They were resourceful and they used their brain. Dealers are automatically adding the cost of a loader in my package without even asking if I want one. I don't know but I suspect this must be a high profit margin item.

4. Tractor dealerships are looking more like car dealerships. And most of the employees know very little about tractors.

I have to respectfully disagree with #1. More hp, less weight (compact world, farm machines are still heavy and who could have imagined 30 years ago we would have 350+ hp row crop tractors) is imo market driven not driven by any mfg. Small property owners are Demanding these machines and in many instances the mfg are slow to meet these demands. Just what has changed in the last ten years in available pto hp has made many tasks and lives easier.

#2 again I believe these are market driven options concerning the transmission style regardless of what is the better choice. Consumers are demanding easy to shift and operate units.

#3 The loader question can be a catch 22, many dealers just put loaders on the tractors because their take rate on loader units is usually high. Have some patience when purchasing something that is out of what many consider the norm.

#4 A fair amount of truth here, the automotive industry has set a standard at least from a service aspect that many others are striving to follow. As they see the potential for more revenue when structured in that fashion. As equipment gets more and more complicated more similarities will follow I think. Some dealers will have poor employees lacking knowledge others will not it is a very technical business and good, smart, problem solving dealers exist and will continue to do so as they take more and more market share from those that do not.

Wow, I kind of got to babbling there a bit !

 

[Catfish Man]

I think most of you are misunderstanding the nature of my original post.

I'm not saying they are none out there. What I'm talking about is TRENDS, wait a few years and see how many real farming type tractors are left that are under 50HP and 50 grand.

 

[MrWhippy]

I think most of you are misunderstanding the nature of my original post.

I'm not saying they are none out there. What I'm talking about is TRENDS, wait a few years and see how many real farming type tractors are left that are under 50HP and 50 grand.

I saw you have a 1715. We went from a 1710 to a Workmaster 55--47 pto hp and 4wd. With loader AND backhoe we were WAY under 50K. (mid 30's in fact).

We loved our 1710 but it is NO match for the WM55.

 

[Catfish Man]

I saw you have a 1715. We went from a 1710 to a Workmaster 55--47 pto hp and 4wd. With loader AND backhoe we were WAY under 50K. (mid 30's in fact).

We loved our 1710 but it is NO match for the WM55.

The 1715 is used for household type stuff (glorified lawnmower) at another property.

wait a few years and see how far your $50k will go towards a real tractor

 

[Catfish Man]

It hasn't been that many years ago that you could go buy a good heavy duty work truck, that didn't have a lot of stuff you don't need and it was simple enough to work on.

Have you priced work trucks lately? To get one that is heavy duty enough to do anything, we are talking major bucks, and it has all kinds of crap that a working man doesn't need.

Give it a few years and that's where the tractors will be.

 

[MrWhippy]

The 1715 is used for household type stuff (glorified lawnmower) at another property.

wait a few years and see how far your $50k will go towards a real tractor

To be fair, that's the nature of inflation. Food prices, gas prices, car prices, tractor prices. I don't see many nickel candy bars anymore (or 30 cent/gallon gas...)

 

[Catfish Man]

Inflation is a whole different can of worms.

What I'm talking about is you go to buy that candy bar, and they say sorry sir we don't offer just candy bars anymore, you will have to buy a pack of gum also.

 

[MrWhippy]

Inflation is a whole different can of worms.

What I'm talking about is you go to buy that candy bar, and they say sorry sir we don't offer just candy bars anymore, you will have to buy a pack of gum also.

I get it now. You think that you'll have to buy the "Tractor package" in most instances. (Tractor with HST/FEL stereo and AC cab, etc)

I saw only a little of that last fall. We actually went with the CNH product over MF BECAUSE MF only had cabbed tractors with stereo and AC in the size we were looking. Yes, they could special order, but it would take several weeks.

Aside from MF, the others had basic tractors on the lot. Depending on location, I could see certain dealers stocking only the top end versions of many tractors--that's where the biggest profits are, if your customer base is amenable.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Please show me anything that has not gone up in price or anything that is the same price without less actual material and quality to build it. As far as the trucks and tractors costing more, you have inflation along with people just want more stuff on their equipment. It use to be common to buy a work truck with no radio and no air conditioning. I remember when heaters were options. Everything evolves and with that the costs go up.