looking at a 09 superduty 6.4L powerstroke

[Builder]

I'm really disgusted in how rusted my 6 year old dodge is. I have only put about 30k miles on it since I bought it in Ohio about 3 years ago and due to its winter road manners, this winter was the first I was using it on a daily basis. Previously it was driven only on weekends or in summer. It also has a truck cap, so the bed and inside of the tailgate have been dry.

Unless I am mistaken, it is the only truck to be built in Mexico. Ford and GM build theirs in the US. I think that either the steel is exposed before it is painted or the painting process is sub par (sheet metal design may also be defective) or most likely Dodge doesn't use zinked steel. It does introduce complications welding zink plated steel, primarily maintenance of the resistance welding electrodes, but thats what you have to do if you want to build cars that go a while without rusting.

The problem is that it will take a long time to prove that dodge has solved the problem and until I see proof that something is different I am voting with my wallet and feet. Rusty cars have been solved. There is no need to support a manufacturer who will not support his customers investment with such basic technology. My Audi had a 12 year corrosion warranty and was driven every day of its life in the same conditions and when I traded it after it reached 10 years it did not have a single spot of rust and even still had the original exhaust.

Intersting because a friend I just had over to our home last night owns a big auto body shop and he explained to me how the Mexican plants turned out better paint jobs. He said because their version of the "EPA" or "DEP" was much more relaxed and the plants were much more state of the art which allowed vehicles to be better painted.

 

[slowzuki]

Up here we are heavily salted, the rust here depends on the service of the truck. Dinged up work trucks start rusting sooner. I don't think I've ever seen one get to 10 years rust free without lots of preventative care.

 

[westcliffe01]

Have your friend name one of the cars that is better painted and I will look for used models here to see how they are doing. There is nothing "better" about the dodge truck bodywork, that is for sure. I liked the interiors and my truck has been reliable, but its not worth cr#p if you want to sell it with rust. I would be looking at 2 new door shells + a tailgate + all the labor and painting, so it kills the resale value.

Some of the Fords had problems not with the body itself, but bolt on components like front and rear bumpers and the front valance. I have seen a 2003 F250 where the front valance was rusted so bad you could pass a football through the holes.

 

[Builder]

Builder, I don't know what powers your gauge cluster, but it is very common now for the gauges to be motors powered by PWM. Since the technology is not a whole lot different to what is used in the PCM which actually runs the engine (digital) I am more concerned with what the gauges look like as opposed to the technology behind them. The GMC Jimmy's and other vehicles of that era and some of the modern honda's with the bar graph readouts and digital numerals drive me nuts by comparison. For me a gauge does not need to be analog, it just need to look analog.

The reason why things are done this way is to permit the system to work in both metric and imperial units by changing a code selection and in some markets the actual faceplate with the inscriptions (I know that in germany certain speeds are marked bolder since they are common speed limits).

There is no simple way to do this with true analog instruments other than change out the faceplate (which would be required, whether the law required it or not if a different unit is used). And analog instruments do not have the same diagnostic capabilities either.

I don't know how the 2007 GMC instruments work, but have been looking at learning to write code for Freescale micro processors and the demo board I bought happened to be for a complete instrument cluster...

Yes, the bar graph GM gauges from the 80's-90's were cooky.

But i'm talking 200 and up era trucks. Most of my GMC are measured the old reliable way with sending units and proportional gauges wired to them. I've read some articles about Ford transmission gauges run by the PCM moving up to overheat positions so rapidly that you don't have the chance to respond.
Transmission Temperature Gauge JUMPS to red - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
Transmision "check gauge" light and temperature gauge problem - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
Trans Temp Gauge Pegged to Red - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

What happens is the dummy gauge moves up rapidly and by then it's too late. Fords have senders like GM, but more of the GM gauges are like big rig gauges that actually read the sender. From how I understand it, the sender in a Ford sends information to a PCM/ECM, etc. If the trans fluid temps become hot it's sent to the gauge and the gauge responds more like a dummy light-it jumps to red quickly.

In my GMC, the trans temp gauge moves exactly like my IH gauges, slowly & accurately, not jumpy. Might not be a bad idea to add a trans temp gauge as a backup on your Ford.

 

[westcliffe01]

The only way to know the truth here would be to test the thermocouples in oil and see how they are calibrated. Installed location, fluid level all have an impact. And in the case of the digital gauges, software is also an issue. So far, mine behave like regular gauges. It sure takes much longer to lift the needle since I got back to MI... I had a Nissan where the water temperature sender was mounted high on the head. If I lost 2 quarts of coolant, i was no longer immersed in coolant but was well enough isolated from the mount to not sense the temperature of the block. So the temperature would first drop and only rise when steam was generated. It wasn't the fault of the sender or gauge, just bad placement.

Yes, the bar graph GM gauges from the 80's-90's were cooky.

But i'm talking 200 and up era trucks. Most of my GMC are measured the old reliable way with sending units and proportional gauges wired to them. I've read some articles about Ford transmission gauges run by the PCM moving up to overheat positions so rapidly that you don't have the chance to respond.
Transmission Temperature Gauge JUMPS to red - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
Transmision "check gauge" light and temperature gauge problem - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
Trans Temp Gauge Pegged to Red - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

What happens is the dummy gauge moves up rapidly and by then it's too late. Fords have senders like GM, but more of the GM gauges are like big rig gauges that actually read the sender. From how I understand it, the sender in a Ford sends information to a PCM/ECM, etc. If the trans fluid temps become hot it's sent to the gauge and the gauge responds more like a dummy light-it jumps to red quickly.

In my GMC, the trans temp gauge moves exactly like my IH gauges, slowly & accurately, not jumpy. Might not be a bad idea to add a trans temp gauge as a backup on your Ford.

 

[westcliffe01]

First link was for a defective sender in the transmission. Open circuit/short circuit will get a severe reaction on the gauge for sure..... Had no damage to his transmission, but truck went into limp mode.

Second link the same, faulty transmission temperature sender.

3rd link, same fault, defective temperature sender.

All the other speculation regarding how the gauges work was a bunch of guessing - no facts.

In none of the cases did the transmission actually overheat.

I work in automotive and it is amazing that buyers expect a sending unit to cost less than a $. No wonder we have so many failing in service.

 

[Builder]

First link was for a defective sender in the transmission. Open circuit/short circuit will get a severe reaction on the gauge for sure..... Had no damage to his transmission, but truck went into limp mode.

Second link the same, faulty transmission temperature sender.

3rd link, same fault, defective temperature sender.

All the other speculation regarding how the gauges work was a bunch of guessing - no facts.

In none of the cases did the transmission actually overheat.

I work in automotive and it is amazing that buyers expect a sending unit to cost less than a $. No wonder we have so many failing in service.

The reason I know some of the ford gauges, in particular the trans temp sender is an idiot gauge is because I read it on a Ford tech board back in late '06 when I was deciding between a ford 6L and a GM HD Dmax. A Ford tech had pointed out that the trans temp gauge (and other gauges) were not hooked directly to the sender like GM gauges were.

 

[westcliffe01]

No microprocessor controlled device has the display connected directly to the sender. That does NOT mean that the value displayed is not proportional to the value at the sender, which is what you are implying.
I guess every page I print in my laserjet must be garbage since the printer is not directly connected to my LCD display if I follow the same logic...

All one needs is a heater (hot plate) a stainless soup bowl, the appropriate fluid, the sending unit to be tested and an independently verified thermometer to test the calibration. If you have a scan tool, you may be able to read the digital value as processed by the microprocessor and compare this to your verified thermometer. The fact is that the gauges don't have calibrated markings and I think that it has been "dumbed down" for the consumer. That does not mean that the PCM does not know what the temperature is or that the display is not proportional. I also thought this thread was about a 2009 model year, not an 06. There was a significant facelift in 08 so much may have changed, but the principles stay the same.

My chevy Cobalt, for instance has no gauge for coolant temperature at all. If you want to know, you have to bring up "coolant temperature" on the multi function display and it is then displayed in degrees. I know for sure that the instrument cluster in that car and the predecessor the cavalier are all digital, since there is only a CAN connection to the cluster.

The reason I know some of the ford gauges, in particular the trans temp sender is an idiot gauge is because I read it on a Ford tech board back in late '06 when I was deciding between a ford 6L and a GM HD Dmax. A Ford tech had pointed out that the trans temp gauge (and other gauges) were not hooked directly to the sender like GM gauges were.

 

[Dargo]

First link was for a defective sender in the transmission. Open circuit/short circuit will get a severe reaction on the gauge for sure..... Had no damage to his transmission, but truck went into limp mode.

Second link the same, faulty transmission temperature sender.

3rd link, same fault, defective temperature sender.

All the other speculation regarding how the gauges work was a bunch of guessing - no facts.

In none of the cases did the transmission actually overheat.

I work in automotive and it is amazing that buyers expect a sending unit to cost less than a $. No wonder we have so many failing in service.

From working in the business of seeing automotive claims every day, it's amazing the wild stories I hear from some people on what they believe vs. actual statistics. There is also a wide disparity between what is expected by people uneducated in claim actuarials vs. what they believe to be fact. Many times I've seen the "internet mechanic" sit around at lunch and tell everyone what is wrong with their car when it flies in the face of logic, data collected by the manufacturers and tens of thousands of actual failure data. Oh well, some "stories" can be more interesting than yesterday's game scores. And, some of the biggest story tellers end up feeling more important and better about themselves after being the internet mechanic. Until they cause problems with techs actually fixing the problems I figure "oh well...". Most all the time their "followers" generally wonder away over time and having acted on bad advice has cost them money and inconvenience.

 

[MossRoad]

Thread pruned again.

No PMs sent as there were too many to count.

This was round 2 of pruning, folks. Please leave the personal comments out or the thread will be closed.

 

[Builder]

The only way to know the truth here would be to test the thermocouples in oil and see how they are calibrated. Installed location, fluid level all have an impact. And in the case of the digital gauges, software is also an issue. So far, mine behave like regular gauges. It sure takes much longer to lift the needle since I got back to MI... I had a Nissan where the water temperature sender was mounted high on the head. If I lost 2 quarts of coolant, i was no longer immersed in coolant but was well enough isolated from the mount to not sense the temperature of the block. So the temperature would first drop and only rise when steam was generated. It wasn't the fault of the sender or gauge, just bad placement.

No microprocessor controlled device has the display connected directly to the sender. That does NOT mean that the value displayed is not proportional to the value at the sender, which is what you are implying.
I guess every page I print in my laserjet must be garbage since the printer is not directly connected to my LCD display if I follow the same logic...

All one needs is a heater (hot plate) a stainless soup bowl, the appropriate fluid, the sending unit to be tested and an independently verified thermometer to test the calibration. If you have a scan tool, you may be able to read the digital value as processed by the microprocessor and compare this to your verified thermometer. The fact is that the gauges don't have calibrated markings and I think that it has been "dumbed down" for the consumer. That does not mean that the PCM does not know what the temperature is or that the display is not proportional. I also thought this thread was about a 2009 model year, not an 06. There was a significant facelift in 08 so much may have changed, but the principles stay the same.

Here you go. It was tested right here and proves the torqshift trans temp gauge is not much better than an idiot light and reads "normal" when the trans fluid temps are in the 230-250 range. You are correct in not assuming your's is the same one they used when I considered buying an '07 Torqsh. equipped Ford. However, it factored in my decision along with all the other bulletins that I read either from Dieselman's or directly from Ford bulletins about their trucks before I bought a truck. If I were you, I'd want to know.

If your trans fluid is 230-250 do you consider that "normal"?

Most AFT fluids consider normal operating temps to be 175-190 degrees. For every jump of 20* above that, you can cut your trans fluid life in HALF!

So if you're running around in your Ford in the "normal" temp range of your torqshift temp gauge, you could be at 230* and still be considered "normal" (not even in the yellow zone). Heck at 250* it's still in the "yellow" or "marginal" temp zone. I don't know about you, but I'd like to be informed there's a problem at 230-250*.
Would anyone like the idea of their gauge not being in the red when operating their auto trans temps at 230-250 degrees? I know I would !!

dieselmann's editorial

 

[jcmseven]

I grew too tired to read all these posts and by this time this response may be moot. I had a 2008 Ford 250 6.4L and I really liked it. It was smooth and reliable for the time I had it. I sold it with low miles and bought my GMC that I am now driving. I like the GMC better for several reasons, but the Ford was a really good truck and the powertrain was fine. It towed really well and I achieve decent mileage. My average unloaded highway was around 17 and I got about 11 pulling an 8000-10000 pound load. My truck had the updated programming and 3.73 gears. Those trucks with 4.10 gears did not do well on fuel as the 6.4 was a very "rev sensitive" engine. If our OP has not said in the 500 posts this thread has accumulated that he has already bought the truck, I hope this helps him. Otherwise forgive my beebling.

John M

 

[slowzuki]

As a note, this was written in 2002, when the 4R100 ruled the roost. A lot can happen to a little averaging algorithm in the computer in the years since.

I've not seen any serious complaints about this before, and most guys doing the cummins swap just bush in the Ford sending units to fit in their cummins.

dieselmann's editorial

 

[Builder]

As a note, this was written in 2002, when the 4R100 ruled the roost. A lot can happen to a little averaging algorithm in the computer in the years since.

.

Of course, but it's speculation to assume they did or didn't, and what about the trucks that Ford didn't change?

This guy is one of the most acclaimed authorities on the Powerstroke. You can't be suggesting the guy is wrong, can you?

 

[westcliffe01]

Builder, to settle this last issue, would you agree that a scan tool will read the temperature correctly in degrees directly from the CPU ? If I have any concern, I could then hook up the scan tool and compare the temperature in degrees to the position of the needle on the gauge. If "normal" is normal, I should be able to call it good, right ?

 

[Builder]

Builder, to settle this last issue, would you agree that a scan tool will read the temperature correctly in degrees directly from the CPU ? If I have any concern, I could then hook up the scan tool and compare the temperature in degrees to the position of the needle on the gauge. If "normal" is normal, I should be able to call it good, right ?

I guess if that's how you want to check it. Now would you give me the courtesy of answing a question for me:

Would you agree I've proven with research done by a competent person that the Ford trans temp gauge is more like an idiot light and doesn't tell you the trans fluid is too hot before it's too late in some, if not many superduty ford trucks?

BTW: I appreciate your open mindedness and not resorting to personal insults.

 

[westcliffe01]

I don't agree to anything yet. I believe the gauges display temperature proportional to what the sender sees. Why there is no calibrated scale, we have to ask Ford. Actually we do know why, because then they would have to do one for Celsius and another for Fahrenheit for sure... I am prepared to put money down that the gauge will indicate higher if the oil temperature is higher and that it should be within 10% of the value measured with a calibrated thermocouple, compared to the value transmitted on the Can bus. I'm also prepared to bet that there is no sudden "jump" in the displayed value. Are you game ? And we will be testing my 2008 MY since that is what this thread is about.

An idiot light is a binary quantity, on or off. I have never seen a temperature gauge behave that way unless it was defective. I am alarmed when the gauge behaves in any way it is not expected, either too low or too high. And I understand why instruments are built the way they are today. The decision not to show a calibrated scale is made by the manufacturer and differs widely. My Audi showed the redline temperature value. Below was green, above was red. Simple to understand and you knew how hot it actually got.

Maybe that is your primary beef, that there is no scale ?

I guess if that's how you want to check it. Now would you give me the courtesy of answing a question for me:

Would you agree I've proven with research done by a competent person that the Ford trans temp gauge is more like an idiot light and doesn't tell you the trans fluid is too hot before it's too late in some, if not many superduty ford trucks?

BTW: I appreciate your open mindedness and not resorting to personal insults.

 

[Builder]

I wasn't talking about your particular truck, just that the SD in general had a problem with the trans temp gauge when I was buying in '07. I based my conclusion on the dieselman's article and based on his findings (which I respect), it acts more like an idiot light because when it's registering in the yellow or red, it's too late and the trans fluid is already cooked. That to me is essentially an idiot gauge. In all my years of CDL trucking, driving triaxles for local haulers, I've never seen a truck trans temp gauge set up to warn the operator that the fluid is too hot after it's too late.

On edit yes maybe my primary beef is lack of correct scale, it's that when the needle on the ford trans temp gauge is in the "normal" zone, your trans temp fluid could be 230+ degrees. I would call that highly defective. You don't, but that's OK. We agree to disagree. You don't have to believe his finding or mine.

Nevermind running your test. I'm sure it'll come out perfectly calibrated. You win on that one. Thanks for the discussion :thumbsup:

 

[JESSE1]

I've had many, many Fords and this has always been my biggest gripe with them. I'd like a gauge to register from 0 to 300 and actually show me the temperature of the oil or coolant. It would be nice if the gauges acted like the Stewart Warner gauges used in trucks. Analog gauges would be fine.

 

[westcliffe01]

The weird part is that they have a multi function display. All they have to do is give you the option to display whatever parameter you want. If its transmission fluid temp, you should be able to see the value in degrees right on the display. Getting a multi function tool that displays the can bus data is probably not a bad idea since one may need it for fault codes anyway, and its use will help one know exactly how your system works, how the gauges are calibrated and skip all the speculation.

Builder, you might not want to assert that a problem that existed in 2002 (which may have been legit at the time) is still the same 6 or 8 years later. You may also poke around in the forums to see if the gauge clusters on your favorite vehicle still work the way you think they do in 2011. Chevy may have gone to the "dark side" too by now...