looking at a 09 superduty 6.4L powerstroke

[Builder]

Builder,
When you rate powertrain as 35%, do you give the brand that 35% even if they won by 5%? What if there are various tests that prove either has an advantage depending on the test? When the trucks are so close and competetive in some of the categories, I could care less about one beating the other by a slim margin. That's a reason why some would rate fit/finish, or overall quality, more important than powertrain. For me, with all else close to equal, it comes down to subjective things like comfort for me, dash layout for me, general feel for me, etc. Afterall I'm the one driving it for years and I could see it as ridiculous to weight a category 35% just so I could say i can get from point A to point B, x seconds faster. We all have different criteria I guess. Some want bragging rights, some want cutting edge power, some want comfort, some want a good combination of everything. It's nice to have a choice.

I guess it's like I said before. I disagree with the 4 categories he presented. Engine HP? WTH is that? What about powertrain? I simply cannot fathom how someone could buy a truck with equal buying consideration between fit & finish and engine, transmission, etc.
I disagree in that I'd give far more importance to powertrain than anything. Afterall, it's the heart & soul of any vehicle. Distantly behind would be "fit/finish".
What about warranty? Is no consideration given for having a longer warranty? How about price? If 2 trucks are equally equipped, would you pay hundreds or thousands more for one over the other? My mommy ain't buying me this truck. I'm buying it by working hard & saving money. I'm not some rich boy at the end of a long concrete driveway with barns full of hot rods & man toys.

I found Ford's "fit & finish" no better on comparable trucks. In fact, I love my truck's seats. Very cozy & comfy after a long day of work in the cold. I also like my truck's true proportional gauges hooked to sending units over Ford's "dummy gauges".

 

[Soundguy]

Note that you found a Good Deal on a Ford 6.4L diesel because it is a Ford 6.4L Diesel. The resale values are poor due to the mechanical issues. If you are looking used it's hard to beat a Cummins. The Ford has the nicer interior but the motor is an issue....

any worse from the stories that were out about the early 6.0psd?

soundguy

 

[Builder]

2 big turn offs for me:

Susceptibility to rust (My Ram is rusting out after 6 years). This has a huge impact on resale value if it is otherwise well taken care of and has relatively low miles (less than 60k)

Extremely flat body panels on the new GM's. They will get parking lot rash very quickly and due to the flat surfaces one will see it a mile away. Has no impact on function but turns used car buyers off big time.

Slightly lower on the subjective ranking:
I think GM interiors absolutely suck. Hard shiny plastic, cloth seats that look like they were styled 10-15 years ago. Dated dash layout and styling on all the ones I looked at and that did not include post 2007 DM trucks since none were in my price range.

Isn't that interesting. I really liked the GM layout better in '07. More gauges (function with senders like big trucks) and less blingy. The electronic dummy gauges didn't impress me. I always like the interior space of my Superduty over my HD. I'm pretty big and like my elbow room, but I grew to like the HD cab just fine. I called it a tie because although Ford's cabin was bigger, I liked the way the GM seats cradled me, the gauges and the switch layout.

 

[westcliffe01]

Builder, I don't know what powers your gauge cluster, but it is very common now for the gauges to be motors powered by PWM. Since the technology is not a whole lot different to what is used in the PCM which actually runs the engine (digital) I am more concerned with what the gauges look like as opposed to the technology behind them. The GMC Jimmy's and other vehicles of that era and some of the modern honda's with the bar graph readouts and digital numerals drive me nuts by comparison. For me a gauge does not need to be analog, it just need to look analog.

The reason why things are done this way is to permit the system to work in both metric and imperial units by changing a code selection and in some markets the actual faceplate with the inscriptions (I know that in germany certain speeds are marked bolder since they are common speed limits).

There is no simple way to do this with true analog instruments other than change out the faceplate (which would be required, whether the law required it or not if a different unit is used). And analog instruments do not have the same diagnostic capabilities either.

I don't know how the 2007 GMC instruments work, but have been looking at learning to write code for Freescale micro processors and the demo board I bought happened to be for a complete instrument cluster...

The electronic dummy gauges didn't impress me.

 

[Lt CHEG]

Note that you found a Good Deal on a Ford 6.4L diesel because it is a Ford 6.4L Diesel. The resale values are poor due to the mechanical issues. If you are looking used it's hard to beat a Cummins. The Ford has the nicer interior but the motor is an issue....

I don't know if I can agree with that. Around here GM diesels had the best resale value, followed pretty closely by Ford diesels and Dodge's had the lowest resale value, even when equipped with the Cummins Turbo Diesel. Sure there have been issues with the early 6.4's but by and large they seem to be a pretty good performer, albeit not known for fuel economy. I own a Ford 6.4 PS and have owned a number of GM's too and even I'll agree that the Cummins is hands down the best diesel engine offered in the pickup truck market. The problem in my experience is that Dodge has a million mile engine in a 200,000 mile truck. When it comes to buying a used vehicle a reliable engine is only a part of the overall package. If for example you've got a truck with 90% of its engine life remaining for sale, but it's badly rusted or the transmission is shot or it's loaded with electrical problems I'm still not going to buy it. The 6.4 PS is definitely a more complicated engine, but it's not too far off the mark from the Duramax or 6.7 CTD either. Everything made since 2007 is going to be more complicated, a heck of a lot harder to work on, and a whole lot more sensitive to damage than engines produced previously. Unfortunately thanks to the EPA that's not going to change. Frankly, even with all of the issues that Ford had with the 6.0, I noted a very strong used market for diesel Super Duties with all (7.3, 6.0 and 6.4) of the different Ford engines. This may certainly be a regional thing and things may be different in NC, but in this area GM and Ford rule the roost in the used diesel market.

 

[westcliffe01]

Peoples opinion on rust may be slanted due to the fact that in their location rust may not be a major issue due to little road salt if any. Its mainly people North of I70 who have really significant corrosion issues. I also think that I got a deal on the Ford because Ford sold a whole lot of them and there is now a more efficient and quieter model for sale. Particularly in the south, urea is not likely to be nearly as problematic as it will be for us eskimos... Fuel cost is very significant for someone who does a lot of miles. The original owner of my truck spent nearly $14k on fuel in 2 years.

 

[Soundguy]

interesting.

I have (had) been in the market for a diesel 1 ton a while back.. and might be in for another when my old dodge half ton goes.. in my area, after 2 months of looking, I turned up one overpriced 98 dodge 3500.. looked clean.. had 100k on it.. but price was crazy at 12500!!!

I saw plenty of gm products.. chevy, etc 3500 from 96-99 in the 4500-6500 range..

saw some ford 350's in the 90-93 range I passed on ( 3500$ or so ) due to their age and NA engines..

saw some ford 350's in the 01-05 range that were newer and had the 'newer' price tag.. ie.. 17-25K

passed on various of the above lists as I was not looking for a 5spd.

got lucky and got my 450 for a decent deal I feel.. but have still been watching the market, as my old half ton dodge gasser is looking like it wants to be a farm truck more and more .. if that happens.. or.. WHEN it happens, I want to replace with another diesel and get away from gasser passanger vehicles all together.. ( including the wifes yukon when it decides to go ).. so am always watching the market.
..
Point was.. was always hard to find dodge diesels.. saw plenty of gm flavors.. and probably almost as many fords. fords seemed to be usually really late or really early models.. was hard to find mid age...

no other point.. just observations on my local market and what I saw for sale..

when I buy.. my pref will be ford, dodge, then gm.

while I have stated in other threads I dislike gm pretty heavilly.. that is mostly aimed at their light duty gassers. I'd at least entertain a gm diesel if the conditions were right..

soundguy

 

[westcliffe01]

Soundguy, its not that far to Texas. Autotrader.com got me a few of my recent vehicles. Pick a zip code central to where you want to look in the target state and specify a radius in miles. I picked Houston, but there are mega truck dealers in Dallas too. Saved about $7k compared to buying in MI and I got a salt free vehicle.

 

[Diamondpilot]

interesting.

I have (had) been in the market for a diesel 1 ton a while back.. and might be in for another when my old dodge half ton goes.. in my area, after 2 months of looking, I turned up one overpriced 98 dodge 3500.. looked clean.. had 100k on it.. but price was crazy at 12500!!!

I saw plenty of gm products.. chevy, etc 3500 from 96-99 in the 4500-6500 range..

saw some ford 350's in the 90-93 range I passed on ( 3500$ or so ) due to their age and NA engines..

saw some ford 350's in the 01-05 range that were newer and had the 'newer' price tag.. ie.. 17-25K

passed on various of the above lists as I was not looking for a 5spd.

got lucky and got my 450 for a decent deal I feel.. but have still been watching the market, as my old half ton dodge gasser is looking like it wants to be a farm truck more and more .. if that happens.. or.. WHEN it happens, I want to replace with another diesel and get away from gasser passanger vehicles all together.. ( including the wifes yukon when it decides to go ).. so am always watching the market.
..
Point was.. was always hard to find dodge diesels.. saw plenty of gm flavors.. and probably almost as many fords. fords seemed to be usually really late or really early models.. was hard to find mid age...

no other point.. just observations on my local market and what I saw for sale..

when I buy.. my pref will be ford, dodge, then gm.

while I have stated in other threads I dislike gm pretty heavilly.. that is mostly aimed at their light duty gassers. I'd at least entertain a gm diesel if the conditions were right..

soundguy

2 reasons for this. Of the diesel market in the 90's Ford had about 50% of it. GM was at about 33%, and Dodge was at about 17%. Its just the pure numbers.

Second reason is the 5.9L Cummins guys love those engines. I know guys around here that when a Dodge of that era rust out, about 10 years on average, they swap the motor into something else. I personally know where there are 12 valve Cummins motors running in GMC and Ford trucks and a Jeep within a 5 mile radius of me. The guy across the streets son has a 12 Valve in a late model Dodge 3/4 ton that started life with a gasser in it. This is simply because the motor is 3 time as durable as the truck they originally came in. They just scrap the truck.

Chris

 

[Lt CHEG]

2 reasons for this. Of the diesel market in the 90's Ford had about 50% of it. GM was at about 33%, and Dodge was at about 17%. Its just the pure numbers.

Second reason is the 5.9L Cummins guys love those engines. I know guys around here that when a Dodge of that era rust out, about 10 years on average, they swap the motor into something else. I personally know where there are 12 valve Cummins motors running in GMC and Ford trucks and a Jeep within a 5 mile radius of me. The guy across the streets son has a 12 Valve in a late model Dodge 3/4 ton that started life with a gasser in it. This is simply because the motor is 3 time as durable as the truck they originally came in. They just scrap the truck.

Chris

There's a lot of truth here. Ford diesels were far more common than either GM or Dodge diesels. Dodge was the next most common in the used truck market, at least in the year ranges that I was willing to consider and DMax's were the least common. Also if you look at the diesel magazines there are more Cummins powering souped up trucks than any other brand of diesel, and not all of the trucks are Dodges. The point is that there are a lot of CTD engines used to power trucks made by GM and Ford too. I would also note that I've seen far more donor Cummins engines for sale on Craigslist than I have seen DMax or Powerstroke engines. I wasn't willing to really consider anything older than a 2004 in my search for my most recent truck, and ended up buying brand new because of the deal I got, but if you look at the newer trucks where diesels have become more common, GM and Dodge diesels aren't nearly as rare.

 

[Soundguy]

Soundguy, its not that far to Texas. Autotrader.com got me a few of my recent vehicles. Pick a zip code central to where you want to look in the target state and specify a radius in miles. I picked Houston, but there are mega truck dealers in Dallas too. Saved about $7k compared to buying in MI and I got a salt free vehicle.

yep.. 14 hours from my door to houston!

went there a couple years ago ( temple actually.. a few more hours down the road ) to grab a tractor..

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

well no wonder I could only find one dodge diesel in 2 months of looking.. but pulled up generous amounts of fords and gm flavors. pure numbers against me for that era.

makes sense.

soundguy

2 reasons for this. Of the diesel market in the 90's Ford had about 50% of it. GM was at about 33%, and Dodge was at about 17%. Its just the pure numbers.

Second reason is the 5.9L Cummins guys love those engines. I know guys around here that when a Dodge of that era rust out, about 10 years on average, they swap the motor into something else. I personally know where there are 12 valve Cummins motors running in GMC and Ford trucks and a Jeep within a 5 mile radius of me. The guy across the streets son has a 12 Valve in a late model Dodge 3/4 ton that started life with a gasser in it. This is simply because the motor is 3 time as durable as the truck they originally came in. They just scrap the truck.

Chris

 

[Soundguy]

if you look at the newer trucks where diesels have become more common, GM and Dodge diesels aren't nearly as rare.

probably very true.

I just wasn't in the market for a large car payment thus going on the used market and looking at 5-10ys old.

soundguy

 

[westcliffe01]

Cmon... all you have to do is sell a few classic restored tractors and you will be good to go....

probably very true.

I just wasn't in the market for a large car payment thus going on the used market and looking at 5-10ys old.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

sell.. tractor... bad word..

 

[Egon]

[ Dodge of that era rust out, about 10 years on average, /QUOTE]

See a lot of Dodges 10 years or older around here. Rust and just plain falling apart don't seem to be a problem from what I see.:thumbsup:

Must be us Canucks get a truck built in a different plant made from different material eh??

 

[Diamondpilot]

[ Dodge of that era rust out, about 10 years on average, /QUOTE]

See a lot of Dodges 10 years or older around here. Rust and just plain falling apart don't seem to be a problem from what I see.:thumbsup:

Must be us Canucks get a truck built in a different plant made from different material eh??

I am stating a fact, not opinion. I just got back from WalMart and while the little lady was in picking up a few thing I drove around the parking lot. Big difference on average brand to brand with rust. I wonder if its the stuff we put on the streets here. Another member commented the Dodges north of I70 seem to be rusted out. Door bottoms, front fenders, tailgates, and rear fender areas. Very little rust on GM and Fords. Thats real research, in the WalMart parking lot....LOL

My neighbor had a 1996 1500 Ram 4x4 that he sold in 2007. It was so rotted it was crazy. He had had the rust fixed once and just came back. We also had a 1998 Dakota at work that lived in the airplane hanger and just ran parts, ect. Got washed every Sunday along with the airplane. Doors and rear fenders were rusting badly. I had a 2500 Hemi and it had rust forming on the door bottoms before it was 3 years old. Just a fact of life here. None had the paint peeling issues like I had seen others had. Just rust.

Chris

 

[Soundguy]

must be that washing stuff.

I don't rekon i've ever washed my 98 dodge ram 1500.. and no rust .. well ok.. a lil on the xfer case.. but does that count?

then again.. we don't salt our roads.. and I don't drop boats either!

her paint is rough but intact. I think that counts for alot..

soundguy

 

[JESSE1]

Back in the late '70's, the company I worked for hired a truck driver from Pennsylvania. He was driving a '77 Dodge 4x4 that he had used to plow snow with. I could not believe how rotted out that truck was for being fairly new. Quarter panels, front and rear fenders had holes in them. Naturally it was from the salt used, no doubt a Ford or GM of the same year would have been just as bad, although I think Ford had started using a lot of zinc plated steel to combat rust. Just don't see any make of vehicle in this part of the country rotted out nowadays.

 

[westcliffe01]

I'm really disgusted in how rusted my 6 year old dodge is. I have only put about 30k miles on it since I bought it in Ohio about 3 years ago and due to its winter road manners, this winter was the first I was using it on a daily basis. Previously it was driven only on weekends or in summer. It also has a truck cap, so the bed and inside of the tailgate have been dry.

Unless I am mistaken, it is the only truck to be built in Mexico. Ford and GM build theirs in the US. I think that either the steel is exposed before it is painted or the painting process is sub par (sheet metal design may also be defective) or most likely Dodge doesn't use zinked steel. It does introduce complications welding zink plated steel, primarily maintenance of the resistance welding electrodes, but thats what you have to do if you want to build cars that go a while without rusting.

The problem is that it will take a long time to prove that dodge has solved the problem and until I see proof that something is different I am voting with my wallet and feet. Rusty cars have been solved. There is no need to support a manufacturer who will not support his customers investment with such basic technology. My Audi had a 12 year corrosion warranty and was driven every day of its life in the same conditions and when I traded it after it reached 10 years it did not have a single spot of rust and even still had the original exhaust.