How do you hook your Log tongs to draw bar?

[Gordon Gould]

Another thing with a winch is you can deal with hung up trees much more safely.
I consider a winch a necessity when doing any serious cutting in the woods unless its a clear cut on flat ground and all the stumps are cut off at ground level. You just can't move a tractor around in the woods well enough to get where you need to get. At least not my woods.

 

[Baby Grand]

On another note about all of the safety functions on machines, I'm noticing people are becomming LESS responsible as operators. I'm noticing more folks off in laa laa land while operating machinery instead of watching listening feeling how everything is running. I never listen to a radio etc... while running my machinery not even while plowing snow. I'm not saying it's wrong but I do see some really dumb{ooops there is that word} mistakes happening. So my question is if folks are over confident because of safety swithes A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J-K-L-M-N-O-P.......... then are they TRUELY operating the machine to the best of their ability? The presence of or lack of safety devices still does not help a bad operator.

Good point about attentiveness to the task at hand and how it affects safety - this could be the basis for a whole other discussion. It's interesting that this topic doesn't seem to get much discussion as it's one that I often wonder about. Don't even get me started about cell phones & drivers.

I actually like the sound the diesel makes and the feedback it gives you on what you're doing at the moment. Same with the saw. I suspect a big part of my decission to buy both had to do with the sound they made.

-Jim

 

[20 20]

If someone is paying me to log with all the attended to related items, methods and various end products as it relates to loggiung and I have done it for 30 years then I certainly do consider it a profession and can consider myself a professional when it comes to this type of work. I worked hard day in and day out encountering all the dangers inherent to such a job learning, learning and learning somemore over that time period. Do I know everything about the profession ? absolutely not and I doubt anyone else does no matter what the line of work being done that one can be called a professional in. Not knowing everything in any line of work does not necessarily mitigate the individual from being a pro at it whether it is a doctor, lawyer, teacher, baker or candlestick maker.

Arrow you are correct that it is a profession, my point wasn't to be nasty towards those of us that have been in the woods for years. I was just trying to say that every tree felling, log pull, etc... is different. I'd trust the guy more that tells me "tree felling is dangerous and allmost anything can happen" over the guy that says "oh heck that's easy, I'm a pro". Many years back my dad was falling a huge maple, nothing around it, sat in the middle of 2 fields. it was a beautifull day no wind nothing, the tree even leaned the way we wanted it to fall. The wedge was cut and the main cut was going great the tree even started to fall right where we wanted. THEN out of no where came a huge gust of wind, spun the tree completely around and slammed it down on the saw. My dad got out but could not get the saw.

 

[TGF]

I am curious if I am dumb. Seriously. I use a loging chain and my FEL to drag logs out of my woods. I go in reverse, and use the FEL to lift up the end to make it slide easier. Is this a bad idea? So far I have had zero problems and if a log is to big or heavy the back wheels just spin.

 

[IslandTractor]

I am curious if I am dumb. Seriously. I use a loging chain and my FEL to drag logs out of my woods. I go in reverse, and use the FEL to lift up the end to make it slide easier. Is this a bad idea? So far I have had zero problems and if a log is to big or heavy the back wheels just spin.

Sounds like a safe though slow method. Good for relatively short distances so long as your neck doesn't get sore.

 

[crazyal]

So I have to ask. Is this the way that has been argued back and forth as dangerous?

http://www.norwoodindustries.com/Libraries/Other_Misc/Img00032.sflb.ashx

 

[Chilly807]

So I have to ask. Is this the way that has been argued back and forth as dangerous?

http://www.norwoodindustries.com/Libraries/Other_Misc/Img00032.sflb.ashx

In my opinion, it IS dangerous, although I'm sure someone will tell me I'm dumb as a bag of hammers.

The reason I say it's dangerous is that the log is hanging down below the tractor differential, and the attachment point for the chain/tongs is high. What can happen is that the log butt can hook on a stump or under a deadfall or ledge as you drive forward. The high lifting point gives a lot of leverage, and can flip the tractor over backwards. In a perfect world you'll pull from a point below the tractor axle so any resistance pulls the front axle down, but it isn't always practical to do so. It's one of the reasons I don't like using tongs at all, because the log always hangs down quite a ways below the attachment point, wherever that might be. I hope that answers the OP's original question posed way back when.

With a proper logging winch, the log butt(s) are held against the back of the winch, well above the ground level. If the logs are limbed cleanly, there's little to catch and flip the tractor. You still have to be careful as he** going uphill since the weight of the tractor transfers back over the rear wheels more so than it does when on level ground. People tell me they cut and haul out whole trees, limbs and all with their winch. I think they're nuts, frankly.

It's my personal opinion that a farm tractor is a poor substitute for a proper skidder, but that's what we have to work with, so we do the best we can to make it as safe as possible.

I use a "frame" built similar to a winch frame to skid my logs out, usually over snow.

The attachment point is quite high, but the log butts are raised and protected behind the frame screen and can't hook into anything. 4 grab hooks welded to the top of the frame provide attachment points for chain chokers. Everything I cut and haul this way is limbed cleanly, period.

You back up to the logs, lower the 3 point and frame to the ground, hook the chokers, raise the 3 point and drive away. Reasonably slowly. If the tractor shows any tendency towards being too light on the front end, you drop a couple of logs to pick up on the next trip.

Anyone that wants to haul logs at 10 miles an hour through the woods should consider a log trailer. And life insurance.

Any operation involving heavy machinery brings an element of risk with it. What we can do is minimize the risk or at least understand it better. I've learned some things here from some experienced people, I've also learned that everyone has an opinion whether it has any basis in fact or not.

I guess my point is, think things through, watch how the old pros do it, and don't be afraid to ask THEM why they do it that way. Most loggers don't get old by being lucky.

 

[Baby Grand]

I may be dumb as a box of rocks, but I think Chilly is dead nuts on this. He makes several good points. One being about how the butt of the log is not "shielded" by the diff or anything attached to the bottom links (like the blade on a logging winch) and the attachment point is high. The rig on his machine addresses all of these problems and looks like it could be fabbed up with a minimal investment.

Any operation involving heavy machinery brings an element of risk with it. What we can do is minimize the risk or at least understand it better. I've learned some things here from some experienced people, I've also learned that everyone has an opinion whether it has any basis in fact or not.

I guess my point is, think things through, watch how the old pros do it, and don't be afraid to ask THEM why they do it that way. Most loggers don't get old by being lucky.

Very true.

-Jim

 

[kidr]

Maybe log dragging could be made safer by using a spring loaded clevis of some sort that would release if the log got snagged. A weak link so to speak.
Shouldn't be hard to make up.

 

[SPYDERLK]

To the OP:

I attach my tongs to the inner mount on my boom pole - about 3' or 4' aft of the 3 point hitch. This gives good reach and height if the log isn't too heavy. I then hitch a choke chain from the butt of the log to the drawbar so I am lifting with the hitch and pulling with the drawbar. Belt & suspenders - I know - but based on the physics, that's just the the way I roll.

-Jim

I may be dumb as a box of rocks, but I think Chilly is dead nuts on this. He makes several good points. One being about how the butt of the log is not "shielded" by the diff or anything attached to the bottom links (like the blade on a logging winch) and the attachment point is high. The rig on his machine addresses all of these problems and looks like it could be fabbed up with a minimal investment.-Jim

So you dont see that your setup is more sound and safer than Chillys. Well darn!, were not getting anywhere. ... He is pulling from the 3ph. You are pulling from the tractor drawbar. - - As a tractor back tips the 3ph is free to pivot upward around its pivot points on the tractor. This does nothing to moderate backtip. In contrast, the tractor fixed drawbar moves down as a backtip proceeds. A load pulled from this point loses leverage on the tractor as the backtip proceeds. There comes a point where the tractor can tip no further.
Yes, Chillys goes a step to make his setup safer with the low hang snag guard. That is about as far as you can go pulling from the 3ph and it hasnt addressed the fundamental problem since the guard itself is on the 3point -- a snag of the guard can cause an unmoderated tip. With your setup a guard is not necessary and could turn into a nuisance if not well designed, ... or a danger if placed on the 3point.
larry

 

[sms0000]

So I have to ask. Is this the way that has been argued back and forth as dangerous?

http://www.norwoodindustries.com/Libraries/Other_Misc/Img00032.sflb.ashx

I have one of these log hogs and I use a chain, instead of a grapple/tong as shown in the pic. I chain my log as close to the top of the unit as I can and then raise it so its well clear of the ground. Other than a Logging winch setup, this is clearly more safe than dragging from the draw bar. There is a draw bar and then there's a 3pth......I would use a 3pth hitch setup as I have over a draw bar, any year of the century. My 2 cents. Oh and I ain't dumb .
This log isn't catching anything!

 

[SPYDERLK]

I have one of these log hogs and I use a chain, instead of a grapple/tong as shown in the pic. I chain my log as close to the top of the unit as I can and then raise it so its well clear of the ground. Other than a Logging winch setup, this is clearly more safe than dragging from the draw bar. There is a draw bar and then there's a 3pth......I would use a 3pth hitch setup as I have over a draw bar, any year of the century. My 2 cents. Oh and I ain't dumb .
This log isn't catching anything!

Incorrect tho. The safe way is a combination of lift from the 3ph and pull from the tractor drawbar.
larry

 

[Baby Grand]

So you dont see that your setup is more sound and safer than Chillys. Well darn!, were not getting anywhere. ... He is pulling from the 3ph. You are pulling from the tractor drawbar. - - As a tractor back tips the 3ph is free to pivot upward around its pivot points on the tractor. This does nothing to moderate backtip. In contrast, the tractor fixed drawbar moves down as a backtip proceeds. A load pulled from this point loses leverage on the tractor as the backtip proceeds. There comes a point where the tractor can tip no further.
Yes, Chillys goes a step to make his setup safer with the low hang snag guard. That is about as far as you can go pulling from the 3ph and it hasnt addressed the fundamental problem since the guard itself is on the 3point -- a snag of the guard can cause an unmoderated tip. With your setup a guard is not necessary and could turn into a nuisance if not well designed, ... or a danger if placed on the 3point.
larry

Larry,

My appologies for not being completely convinced that what I do is the best way to do it. My attachment method (Lift with the boom pole & Pull with the drawbar) is my under $300 solution to not having a 3PT logging winch, which I would trade my left stone to own. It's a lot more work, but since I had zippo experience and noone to show me "how it's done" this was my answer to the question "How am I going to get that log to where I can cut it up without landing a tractor on my sorry self?".

Now I'm confused - is the 3PT logging winch less safe than the chain & boom pole? Somehow I just can't accept that. How is a logging winch functionally different from Chilly's rig? I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just trying to figure out how best to do this without getting squashed beneath my tractor.

-Jim

 

[pycoed]

Just read this thread with increasing incredulity. To all those who are pulling from the toplink, you are negating one of the two main reasons that Ferguson developed the three point linkage, namely to prevent rear flipping. Since Harry Ferguson's development almost every tractor has been equipped with a TPH - why do you think that might be?
It seems that even 60+ years after the man went to so much trouble to make life safer for tractor users some still don't understand the idea.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Larry,
My attachment method (Lift with the boom pole & Pull with the drawbar) is my under $300 solution to not having a 3PT logging winch, which I would trade my left stone to own. It's a lot more work, but since I had zippo experience and noone to show me "how it's done" this was my answer to the question "How am I going to get that log to where I can cut it up without landing a tractor on my sorry self?".

Now I'm confused - is the 3PT logging winch less safe than the chain & boom pole? Somehow I just can't accept that. How is a logging winch functionally different from Chilly's rig? I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just trying to figure out how best to do this without getting squashed beneath my tractor.

-Jim

Good query! To answer, if the 3point winch is being used [like Chillys rig] in mobile tractor mode and the pull point is from anywhere on its frame [which itself is mounted to the floating 3ph arms] it is less safe than your setup. ... But while it is in its "safe" range it is much more manageable than yours and gives an illusion of real safety. Your lift point is way too far back. Any weight you suspend with your setup has a lot of leverage trying to tip the tractor back. Were you to also pull from the boompole it would be very bad. Instead, as you begin to move your bottom chain hooked to the tractor drawbar tautens and does almost all the pulling. The tendency of the far back suspended weight to back tip you is still there, but the pull point you use prevents the pull from multiplying the effect. And if you do wheelie, the drawbar moves down, shifting the pullpoint lower and lower. This resists the wheelie more and more as it develops. This limiting effect does not happen with a 3ph mounted pull point because the tractor end of the link pivots are essentially on the axle and remain at the same height as the tractor tips.
... If you really want something good I think you should buy a HF Quick Hitch and hang the tongs from the top hook. Thatll move your lift point 2' closer to the tractor than the boompole. Use the drawbar pullpoint as you do now.:thumbsup:
larry

 

[Snowstorm]

Pictures of your set up would be appreciated. if you have one handy. Winch isn't in the budget

I needed a winch about 30 years ago and didn't have the budget. But, I did have a welder, torches and access to lots of scrap and old parts, so I made a winch. The arch is a narrowed front end off a 1950ish GMC tractor. The winch is made from a 67 chevy pickup trans with granny low and a rearend out of a 53 International schoolbus. One side of the rearend is capped off to keep the grease in and the is axle welded to the cap, forcing all the rotation to the top axle. Winch drum is well casing. Drum lock works like a come-along latch - click, click, click when winching. The butts of the logs are lifted off the ground and the weight transfers to the little trailer arch. If the ground is good you can skid 5 or 6 trees at a time. Never tried to figure out what it's capacity is, but I can tell you that it will winch a white pine 3 foot at the butt and 50-60 feet long if you wedge a rear tractor tire against a treee. Turns a 35 hp tractor into a mini skidder.

 

[Baby Grand]

Snowstorm-
I like it. None too pretty, but it looks like it really pulls. And very little risk of standing your tractor on end.

I have been thinking about what Larry was saying about the HF QH conversion while still using the drawbar pull connection. I think that it might be overkill with the load that close to the rear axle and lifted high enough that it can't snag on any rocks or roots - I'll have to do the moment diagrams for my particular equipment and see if it makes sense in my case or if it's not needed. My inclination to guess is becoming clouded by my need to know.

I'd like to add a twist (!) and add a PTO driven capstan winch to the works so I could use my low stretch, polester rope rather than steel cable. I like handling the rope better - it weighs much less, it doesn't kink and it's much kinder on the hands. Plus I already have 3 snatch blocks sized for the rope. The advantage of the capstan winch is that it can be "clutched' by pulling or slackening on the loose end coming off the drum. This allows you to stand somewheres away from the winch in case a line snaps or you need a better view of the pull. Adding a blade to the bottom of the hitch and high and low pulleys to feed out the rope would give the rig the stability that I want, both reeling in the loads and dragging them out.

-Jim

 

[Gio]

My first week with my new GC2400 was spent pulling (skidding) logs. I used 15ft of 3/8 G70 chain w/ slip hooks and I attached a clevis to the draw bar. Low gear, 4wd and limited slip really grunted some big trees.

I also put together 8ft of lighter g70 and 12 ft of 3/8 SS cable to rope and choke all the loose light stuff and pull it to a clearing for burning.

I feel pretty good about this set-up.

 

[eastexan]

Good query! To answer, if the 3point winch is being used [like Chillys rig] in mobile tractor mode and the pull point is from anywhere on its frame [which itself is mounted to the floating 3ph arms] it is less safe than your setup. ... But while it is in its "safe" range it is much more manageable than yours and gives an illusion of real safety. Your lift point is way too far back. Any weight you suspend with your setup has a lot of leverage trying to tip the tractor back. Were you to also pull from the boompole it would be very bad. Instead, as you begin to move your bottom chain hooked to the tractor drawbar tautens and does almost all the pulling. The tendency of the far back suspended weight to back tip you is still there, but the pull point you use prevents the pull from multiplying the effect. And if you do wheelie, the drawbar moves down, shifting the pullpoint lower and lower. This resists the wheelie more and more as it develops. This limiting effect does not happen with a 3ph mounted pull point because the tractor end of the link pivots are essentially on the axle and remain at the same height as the tractor tips.
... If you really want something good I think you should buy a HF Quick Hitch and hang the tongs from the top hook. Thatll move your lift point 2' closer to the tractor than the boompole. Use the drawbar pullpoint as you do now.:thumbsup:
larry

:drink:
Great explanation, Larry. Well thought out & spot on. :thumbsup:

 

[Slacker]

Here is how i do it. I don't lift them high, just enough to clear the ground.